The Electrum

NickImage

Those who are beginning to study the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism tend to entertain two related but mistaken assumptions. The first is that the debate involves only two primary positions. The second is that the more extremely one implements either position, the more distant one must be from the other position. The first of these assumptions is simply untrue. The second is true, but only to a point.

Like visible light, positions in the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism form a continuous spectrum. Every Christian who has an opinion on the issues can be located somewhere along that spectrum. The issues that define the positions, however, are not necessarily those that one might expect.

Participants in this debate will be found arguing about divine sovereignty versus human freedom, about the ordo salutis, about the extent of human depravity, about the role of prevenient grace, and about whether election is unconditional, conditional, or corporate. To be sure, all of these questions are important, but they eventually lead to one critical problem. That problem is the definition of divine foreknowledge.

Divine foreknowledge is the hinge upon which all the other debates turn. One’s definition of foreknowledge will determine whether one ends on the Arminian or Calvinistic side of the debate—and everyone who expresses an opinion is on one side or the other.

Arminians see God’s foreknowledge as His foresight. God looks ahead through the corridors of time and sees what free people will choose. For Arminians, divine foreknowledge is essentially reactive.

For their part, Calvinists see God’s foreknowledge as causative. God’s foreknowledge does not passively observe the future, but rather shapes it. God’s foreknowledge makes things happen. According to Calvinists, foreknowledge is not so much God’s foresight as it is His forethought.

Once a definition has been chosen, the other pieces of the puzzle fall into place almost unavoidably. If God’s foreknowledge is causative, then election must be unconditional. If election is unconditional, then divine calling has to be efficacious. That being so, prevenient grace cannot have reversed the volitional effects of depravity. In other words, most of the Calvinistic system follows with logical certainty from a particular definition of foreknowledge. The exception is the negative side of particular redemption—i.e., the denial that Christ provided redemption for the non-elect.

By the same token, most of the system of Arminianism necessarily flows from viewing God’s foreknowledge as foresight. The exception here is the denial of eternal security. Just as some Calvinists affirm a universal provision of redemption, some Arminians affirm eternal security.

This observation implies that shades and gradations exist on both sides of the dividing line. Strict Calvinists affirm limited atonement, while moderate Calvinists do not. Strict Arminians deny eternal security, while moderate Arminians affirm it.

In other words, the debate involves not two, but at least four positions. These are strict Arminianism, moderate Arminianism, moderate Calvinism, and strict Calvinism. Beyond these four, other positions stretch out both sides of the spectrum.

Much ink has been spilled over the phenomenon of hyper-Calvinism. Unfortunately, this term is generally used as a bare pejorative. The abuse of the term, however, should not be allowed to obscure the fact that a genuinely hyper-Calvinistic position does exist, though its adherents sometimes prefer to call it “High Calvinism.”

What are the characteristics of a hyper-Calvinist? Four particularly bear mentioning. These include the denial of common grace, the adoption of a supralapsarian order of the decrees, the acceptance of a doctrine of reprobation or double-predestination, and a refusal to make a free offer of the gospel. More extreme versions of hyper-Calvinism might also teach the doctrine of eternal justification or a form of antinomianism. To the extent that a person holds these four beliefs, that person is going beyond traditional Calvinism as defined at Dort, and that is what makes the position hyper-Calvinistic.

A corresponding position exists on the Arminian side of the spectrum. This position does not really have a label, but for sake of designation it could be called hyper-Arminianism. How does this position differ from historic Arminianism?

Traditionally, Arminianism and Calvinism take similar views of depraved human nature. This similarity is evident in Article Three of the original Arminian Articles, which affirms,

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Theological students who encounter this statement for the first time often mistake it for a Calvinistic affirmation. It is not. For both traditional Calvinists and traditional Arminians, the will has been so affected by the fall that humans, left to themselves, are utterly incapable of any positive response toward God (in other words, they have lost the moral ability to believe). The difference between Calvinists and Arminians consists in how they solve this problem. According to Arminians, God restores some element of moral ability to all humans as an aspect of prevenient grace. Calvinists believe that God restores full moral ability, but only to the elect as part of saving grace.

This original disabling of the will is what hyper-Arminians deny. In their mind, every human being already has complete freedom of will in every sense, and is always and fully able to choose God at any time. Effectively, hyper-Arminianism denies that depravity has affected the human will. (This position is sometimes mistaken for Pelagianism, but Pelagian theology also denies the imputation of original sin.)

In today’s debates, hyper-Arminians often prefer to call themselves Biblicists. They usually insist that they are neither Calvinists nor Arminians. In one sense, they are right: their position is much more extreme than historic, traditional Arminianism. Nevertheless, their definition of foreknowledge places them firmly on the Arminian side of the spectrum.

So does their insistence upon a libertarian definition of freedom. By this definition, the will is not free unless one might actually make the contrary choice. For Calvinists, however, freedom consists in the ability to do what one chooses without constraint or restraint. Most Calvinists have believed that the will can be shaped and even determined in a number of ways without damaging genuine freedom. The debate between libertarianism and compatibilism corresponds closely to the divide between Arminianism and Calvinism.

This debate also propels some Arminians into an even more extreme position. They reason that if God knows our choices in advance, then we necessarily will make the choices that He foresees. If we will necessarily make a particular choice, however, then it is not really possible to make the contrary choice. In other words, even with a “soft” definition of divine foreknowledge as foresight, libertarian freedom becomes impossible.

The logic of this position is really air-tight, and it results in a pretty abysmal choice. One can affirm foreknowledge and remain biblical, but sacrifice reason. Or one can deny foreknowledge and remain logical, but be forced to reinterpret Scripture in radical ways. Those who deny foreknowledge are known as Free Will Theists or Open Theists. For the most part, Open Theists insist that their theology is simply the logical extension of the core ideas of Arminianism.

Opposite to Open Theism is a position that denies any form of human freedom and subjects every event and decision to “hard” determinism. In extreme versions of hyper-Calvinism, this position makes God so much the author of sin that humans bear little or no actual responsibility for their acts. All Arminians and most Calvinists are horrified by these ideas, just as all Calvinists and most Arminians are horrified by Open Theism.

At this point in the spectrum, an odd thing happens. On one end of the spectrum, hard determinism turns into fatalism (choice is merely an illusion, but people are really ruled by fate). On the other end of the spectrum, freedom becomes so loose as to become virtually random, and therefore essentially a matter of chance, luck, or fortune. But fate and luck are simply different names for the same thing. In other words, the two ends of the spectrum meet. Someone who goes far enough in either direction will end up in exactly the same place.

In the present essay, I am not trying to argue for one direction or the other. Nevertheless, I would like to draw out certain lessons. First, understood in these terms, all Christians who express an opinion end up in some version of Calvinism or Arminianism. Second, more than two positions are possible. Both Arminianism and Calvinism have moderate and extreme versions. Third, it is not proper to critique any position by pointing to its extreme expressions, for the most extreme expressions of both directions are identical to each other. Fourth, there is no one distinctively “Biblicist” position. People from extreme hyper-Calvinists to hyper-Arminians (and perhaps many Open Theists) believe that they are deriving their conclusions from the text of Scripture—and invariably the advocates of one view think that the advocates of all the others are overly influenced by extra-biblical considerations.

Nevertheless, some positions are more biblical than others, and that leads to a final observation. The issues that come into play in the “electrum” are of different kinds. Some of them are serious enough to affect fundamentals of the faith. Any position that makes God the efficient cause of sin is blasphemous. Likewise, any theory that denies exhaustively definite foreknowledge constitutes an implicit denial of the gospel. Furthermore, any theory that makes ultimate salvation dependent upon human work or merit damages the very foundations of the faith.

Having said that, Christians of good will should not impute these extreme theories to the more moderate expressions of Calvinism or Arminianism. To say that every Arminian is an Open Theist or a Pelagian is slander. To suggest that Calvinists necessarily make God the author of sin—as if God Himself induced people to do evil—is to engage in distortion to the point of deception. Each position needs to be understood in its own terms and represented fairly.

Other points of argument, however, are of lesser significance. The definition of foreknowledge is important, but it is an issue over which Christians may charitably disagree. The same is the case with the position of faith and regeneration in the ordo salutis, the definition of election, and the role of common grace in restoring the moral ability to choose God. To be sure, these questions matter a great deal, but they are not the sort of questions over which Christian fellowship and cooperation must fracture. We should be able to discuss such things without raising tempers and voices.

Those discussions would be more fruitful if they began with a spirit of curiosity. A Calvinist ought to wonder how an Arminian can hold the system of faith together with putative integrity and consistency, and the Arminian ought to wonder the same thing about the Calvinist. Therefore, the first step in the discussion should not be to look for evidence that the other is wrong, but to discover those parts of the system that make it seem right. Even if we want to refute another position, the first step toward being able to do that is to learn to articulate it in a convincing way. If each of us would extend this courtesy to the other positions in the “electrum,” we might often change the character of the debate.

All Mortal Vanities, Begone
Isaac Watts (1674–1748)

All mortal vanities, begone,
Nor tempt my eyes, nor tire my ears;
Behold, amidst th’eternal throne,
A vision of the Lamb appears.

Glory His fleecy robe adorns,
Marked with the bloody death He bore;
Seven are His eyes, and seven His horns,
To speak His wisdom and His power.

Lo! He receives a sealèd book
From Him that sits upon the throne;
Jesus, my Lord, prevails to look
On dark decrees and things unknown.

All the assembling saints around
Fall worshipping before the Lamb,
And in new songs of gospel sound
Address their honors to His Name.

The joy, the shout, the harmony,
Flies o’er the everlasting hills
“Worthy art Thou alone,” they cry,
“To read the book, to loose the seals.”

Our voices join the heav’nly strain,
And with transporting pleasure sing,
“Worthy the Lamb that once was slain,
To be our Teacher and our King!”

His words of prophecy reveal
Eternal counsels, deep designs;
His grace and vengeance shall fulfill
The peaceful and the dreadful lines.

Thou hast redeemed our souls from hell
With Thine invaluable blood;
And wretches that did once rebel
Are now made favorites of their God.

Worthy forever is the Lord,
That died for treasons not His own,
By every tongue to be adored,
And dwell upon His Father’s throne!

Discussion

What am I missing? How can one miss the two groups in John 6:44? When Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless…”, isn’t it obvious that He says there are some who cannot come?

He says that no one can come without a special drawing by the Father. That is the doctrine of total depravity, or spiritual inability. Men, left to themselves have no ability to come to Christ. It takes a special work of God in the soul to enable men to come to Christ. There are two groups, those who are left to themselves and cannot come to Christ, and those who are drawn by the Father, and therefore can come, and do come. That is effectual calling, or irristable grace. We know it is effectual because those who are thus drawn are raised by Christ, so all who are drawn by the Father come to Christ.

If that’s twisting the text, then I must have a convoluted mind, because I can’t understand this text any other way. Help!

Sincerely,

Greg Barkman

G. N. Barkman

What am I missing? How can one miss the two groups in John 6:44?
My question was about whether those who are “drawn” are a different group than those who “come,” or whether it is only one group: “those who are drawn who also come.”

[RPittman] No, it isn’t obvious for one with no preconceptions.
There is none so blind as him who will not see… his own preconceptions!

If all-men-without-exception are drawn and it is up to them to make a decision to come, Jesus statement doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. He tells the Jews that they should stop murmuring because ‘no one can come unless they are drawn.’

Since your preconception is that all-men-without-exception have been drawn and it is now up to them to come, why is Jesus telling them they cannot come unless they are drawn, when they could come because (according to your preconceptions) they are included in the all-men-without-exception who can come.

Jesus should have said “stop murmuring, it’s up to you to come since all-men-without exception have been drawn.’

3 times in this chapter Jesus speaks of raising up at the last day. My preconception is that a single group is referenced all 3 times.
[John 6:37-39 NKJV] 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
The father gives to the Son, those given come to the Son, the Son will not cast them out but will raise it up at the last day.
[John 6:40 NKJV] And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jesus will raise up at the last day those who see the Son and believe. My preconception is that the CAUSE for seeing and believing is the Father’s giving of them to the Son.
[John 6:44 NKJV] No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus says that He will raise up at the last day those whom the Father has drawn.

The flow of the passage leads me to conclude that those referred to as drawn are the same individuals that are given and come.

Curtis Hutson, in his booklet http://swordbooks.com/whyidisagreewithallfivepoints.aspx] Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism (online text http://fundamentalbaptistsermons.net/Site6/EBOOKS/Hutson/Why%20I%20Disa… here ) agrees with you and affirms the synergistic view when he writes:
[page 5] Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the Bible says, “No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him…. “But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself. Here the Bible says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Saviour. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him.
He shows his preconception that the all men in John 12:32 means all-men-without exception (even though the word MEN is not in the original).
[John 12:32 AMP] And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross] , will draw and attract all men [Gentiles as well as Jews] to Myself.
If my preconception about the 3 uses by Jesus of the raised up phrase is correct, then Hutson is affirming http://www.theopedia.com/Universalism] universalism .

Hmmm… I wonder which preconception makes the most sense of the passage!

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[JohnBrian] Since your preconception is that all-men-without-exception have been drawn and it is now up to them to come…
I can’t speak for Roland, but that certainly isn’t my preconception. Maybe you have a preconception about the preconceptions of others?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

[Alex Guggenheim] Dr. Bauder does not appear to normally employ fallacies for his arguments but his statement…:
First, understood in these terms, all Christians who express an opinion end up in some version of Calvinism or Arminianism.
…is a rather classic example of a false dilemma combined with an extremely narrow definition.
No he’s actually right about that. The article explains how it works… the “electrum” concept puts everybody either slightly or deeply on one side or the other based on beliefs about foreknowledge.

To pick up the subthread on systematizing again….

Why I say it’s our duty to systematize. I was explaining this to the congregation at Grace last night.

* Everything God says agrees with everything else God says

* Everything God says about topic A agrees with everything else He says about topic A

* We don’t really understand what He says about A unless our understanding agrees with everything He says about A

In other words, an extremely important element in proper interpretation is how well our interp. harmonizes with everything else revealed on that subject. And we really can’t test things adequately without bringing all that revelation together in some way to see if we are in harmony with it.

That bringing together is what I’m calling a “system.”

(Presumably it would not be random!)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Systematic theology takes all of that data and attempts to ‘harmonize’ the blank spots in between points. If we assemble all the passages to prove that God is Sovereign, and all the passages to prove that man is responsible, we have Biblical theology. When we try to resolve the tension between these two points by reasoning out how they work together, we have Systematic theology.

FWIW

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

There is some truth on the position espoused in several posts on this thread that there is a degree of inscrutibility in the paradox of Divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Charles Spurgeon likened this to a railroad track, one rail being Divine sovereignty, and the other human responsiblity. He said that looking down the track, we may think we can see the point where they come together, and yet, if we travel to that point, we realize they do not. They continue to run parallel, never touching, all the way into eternity. (Can I get an Amen!)

And yet, when we remember that Spurgeon was a fervent five-point Calvinist, we recognize that he did not consider the “five-points” to be included in the inscrutible elements of this paradox. In other words, though we surely agree that a measure of paradox exists, we will not agree on what doctrines fit into the paradox category. Just because the Bible does not answer every question, and plainly tells us what some things will remain a mystery, does not mean that the Bible does not teach the doctrines labled Calvinism.

I get the impression that some want to say that because there is mystery, Calvinism is not true, or at least cannot be supported by the Bible. Calvinism is thought to be a logical extension of Biblical truth, an effort to go beyond what the Bible teaches. There was a time when I thougt the same. But a funny thing happened as I continued to exegete Scripture in preparing sermons. Little by little I realized that the Bible does teach these truths. I did not think so formerly, because I hadn’t studied long enough nor carefully enough. Yes, there is mystery, but no, Calvinistic soteriology is not a man-made system. It is Bible truth.

It is just as wrong to stop short of what the Bible teaches as to go beyond what it says. It is just as wrong to label revealed truth an inscrutible mystery as to teach human wisdom as Bible doctrine. Obviously, those who do not see Calvinistic doctrine in the Bible will believe it is human logic, not Bible doctrine. If you can’t see it, you can’t see it. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s not there. It just means that you haven’t been able to see it (yet). No one should say they believe what they are not convinced of from the Bible. But no one should shut the door on what millions of godly Christians have fervently embraced down through the centuries. You could, one day, see what they now see. Maybe not, but it happened to me, and it has happened to many, and who knows, it just might happen to you.

G. N. Barkman

[G. N. Barkman] But no one should shut the door on what millions of godly Christians have fervently embraced down through the centuries.
Greg, I know you mean to be serious, but this is just funny. I don’t know if there are equal numbers of non-Calvinist Christians or not, but you have to admit there have been many. But what does that all prove?

Your assertion that the Calvinist system is completely revealed truth is just not true. There are points in the system that are clearly derived by logic, not by revelation. (Try the ordo salutis for example.) I believe there are points in the system that are simply contrary to revelation, as well, but I don’t really want to get into an argument about it.

In any case, I think the striving between adherents of either system over something that Christians have argued about for hundreds of years is pretty pointless. Since true believers differ on these points, it can’t be as important as we want to make it.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Don,

I specifically restricted my post to the five points of Calvinism. The ordo salutis is not part of basic Calvinist soteriology. As I’m sure you know, not all Calvinists agree on the ordor.

But watch out, it may happen to you yet! :)

Cordially,

Greg Barkman

G. N. Barkman

[Aaron Blumer]
[Alex Guggenheim] Dr. Bauder does not appear to normally employ fallacies for his arguments but his statement…:
First, understood in these terms, all Christians who express an opinion end up in some version of Calvinism or Arminianism.
…is a rather classic example of a false dilemma combined with an extremely narrow definition.
No he’s actually right about that. The article explains how it works… the “electrum” concept puts everybody either slightly or deeply on one side or the other based on beliefs about foreknowledge.
I don’t disagree that his “electum” places everything in between, I am saying that no matter the explanation it is still flawed and based on a psuedo-supremacy of two systems which present a false dilemma and deny the appropriate recognition of proprietary discovery, arguments, and positions of other systems. His schematics may be true for many or some or a few, but not for all. I understand, again, what is being said, I simply reject its oversimplification for the reasons I have stated.

Ex: I can present this system:

Roman Catholic Church……………………………………..Grace Community Church (MacArthur)

In this system I can assign a place for Christian theology which would make them fall somewhere in between, either with one doctrinal topic or all doctrinal topics. But would it be appropriate them to call them semi-Roman Catholics, or possibly hyper-Gracers? No, and most obviously because I cannot presume to place a label on a theological concept forwarded by a person or group that, though it may be similar to another school, may not be derived in part or whole from that school and may in fact possess too great a body of propriety development that would characterize such actions as nothing short of incredulity.

I am certainly not going to lose sleep if this “Calvinist….Arminian” scaling continues, it has by enough people for quite some time but not by all and for good reason. I am disposed to more comprehensive scales, particularly global scaling, as often as possible, particularly when what is in view are all others schools of theology. Clearly there are times and places for one dimensional linear scales, I simply do not think this is one of those times.

Omniscience – A corollary to the doctrine that God is omniscient, is that the group who make up the elect and the group who make up the non-elect are fixed. There can be no movement of individuals from one group to the other, no matter if you hold to conditional or unconditional election. To insist that there can be such movement is to deny God’s omniscience, and affirm some variation of http://www.theopedia.com/Open_theism] Open Theism .

We’ll come back to this in a minute.

Ronald, you seem to be indentifying 2 groups of people in your comments, with 1 of the groups being itself divided into 2 distinct groups. I will use the following names for the groups so as to distinguish them:

Drawn and Not-Drawn, with the Drawn group divided into Given and Not-Given groups.

Drawn – this is the group identified in John 12:32 as “all.”
[RPittman] I am not certain the Amplified Bible has the sense correct. It extends, I think, beyond the Gentile-Jew thing.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you are NOT insisting that the “all” here includes every individual without exception, while at the same time NOT accepting the argument from the AMP that “all” refers to Jews AND Gentiles. I’m not sure who you think the “all” refers to here. Is there another group that is not all-men-everywhere, and is also not “Jews and Gentiles?”

Not-Drawn – If there is a “drawn” group, it seems logical that there is a “not-drawn” group.

Given – This is the group identified in John 6:37 as the ones who come to the Son because the Father has given them to the Son.
[John 6:37 NKJV] All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Not-Given – since I have indentified those who come as having been given, those who do not come are identified as the ones not-given, the ones you have identified as being drawn but not coming.
[RPittman] …it’s the group who are drawn and come to Christ. What you guys can’t seem to understand is that it never mentions those who are drawn and do not come. Just because it doesn’t mention this group does not mean the group doesn’t exist. It’s Christ purpose to speak of this group. In John 6:44, there is simply no data one way or the other—it does not say the group exists or does not.
[RPittman] What is being contested is whether there are others who were drawn and did not come.
You admit that the passage is completely silent on this group, but yet insist that such a group exists, so I think it’s safe to conclude that your preconceptions lead you to believe this group exists.
[RPittman] It is a superficial misreading of the text to suppose that these Jews cannot come to Christ because they are not drawn.
You insist that of the “drawn” group some will (the given) and some will not (the not-given) come. You also seem to insist that some of the “not-drawn” group may or may not come. Since some of both groups may come (and others may not come) what is the purpose of the drawing?

One of the frequent criticisms synergists posit against monergists, is something along the line that the monergistic God is a really, really bad God, because He has created people that He knows will never believe. The argument is not a real criticism of monergism, but is more a criticism of God’s omniscience. But if I have accurately represented your view above, you have a God who draws some who He knows (there’s the omniscience part) will not come, while at the same time not drawing some who will come.

Why doesn’t God just draw those whom He knows will come?
[RPittman] I’ve been arguing for an apparent paradox all along.
Why is there a need for a paradox?

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The more I read about these two approaches, the more persuaded I become that “biblical theology” done well and “systematic theology” done well are virtually indistinguishable. To the extent that biblical theo. focuses on the differences among biblical writers it ceases to be very biblical—because, though emphases and expressions vary from writer to writer, the Book ultimately has a single Author.

To the extent that systematic theology focuses on “the gaps between verses” (which I take to mean, extra-biblical info? but biblical theo. does this also so…I don’t really know what the difference is supposed to be), it ceases to be very theological, because God has revealed Himself authoritatively only in the Scriptures.

So, remove systematic theology’s weaknesses and biblical theology’s weaknesses and you have essentially the same thing… and it’s both biblical and systematic.

I have yet to see a really good refutation of this argument though…
  • Everything God reveals agrees with everything else God reveals
  • A right interpretation of God’s word on topic A will agree with the whole of God’s word on topic A
  • Therefore, we need to bring together the whole of Scripture’s teaching in an understandable way in order to know if our interpretation on topic A is correct.
So, again, systematicness is our duty.

Both Arminians (classical) and Calvinists have done the body of Christ a service in striving to arrive at understanding of doctrine in a way that compares it thoroughly with the whole witness of Scripture on each doctrine as well as the relationships of doctrines to each other.

Alex… on the validity of the “electrum” idea, and the analogy of a Roman Catholic vs. Grace scale…

Everybody either believes the foreknowledge is seeing in advance what will happen or is determining in advance what will happen. There really are only two possibilities there. Or, to put it another way, everybody either believes God determines everything that happens or doesn’t. One’s answer to that question puts him either on the Calvinistic end of things or the Arminianistic end of things.

As for the Roman Catholic analogy… it fails on multiple levels. You’re comparing a large ancient organization to a single local church. You’re comparing personal entities rather than ideas.

There are ideas that more or less fit in well with the Calvinistic view of foreknowledge and there are ideas that fit in well with the Arminian view. These cluster around their respective centers, so, looking at those ideas, we’re all either closer to Calvinism or closer to Arminianism.

This doesn’t work too well with Catholic and Protestant doctrine, though with the right starting point it could. The central doctrine on that scale would probably have to be one’s view of authority. Does apostolic authority reside in the Scriptures or continue in human form through Rome? Then there are doctrines that fit better with one than the other. So it might be possible to make a kind of scale that way.

Larry already said it well earlier…
I am not sure why that is a problem. You can say you aren’t Arminian, or Pelagian, or Calvinist or whatever, but at the end of the day, when your beliefs align with what those labels stand for it doesn’t really matter that you deny the label.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Everybody either believes the foreknowledge is seeing in advance what will happen or is determining in advance what will happen.
Aaron, have you ever studied the way supralapsarians describe the infralapsarian position? They call them arminians directly and indirectly. Calvinist on calvinist crime is quite common.

The issue of whatever or not foreknowledge is causative is only part of the discussion.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

[James K] The issue of whatever or not foreknowledge is causative is only part of the discussion.
I don’t think anyone has said otherwise. Certainly not me.

My point has been that it is indeed a watershed question and everybody is on one side or the other of it. But yes, on each side there are lots of disagreements over lots of other tings.

Charlie, thanks for the link at http://sharperiron.org/comment/26164#comment-26164

Interesting little article… I wonder how many champions of “biblical theology” know it was invented by a liberal? But I do think it’s redeemable and has an important place.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.