Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

[Mike Harding]

Todd,

Alcohol is the gateway drug for our young people. It is not a slippery slope; rather, recreational alcohol is more like a cascading waterfall carrying millions upon millions to terminal disease, death, moral corruption, and spiritual enslavement. For most people today, recreational alcohol use is a choice, not a necessity as it was to some degree in NT times. Even then they regularly diluted their wine with water to reduce its potentially damaging effects, not to mention the serving of fresh wine which had little if any alcoholic content or the other methods of preparation cited by Dave.

I have had plenty of conversations with former students, classmates, former ministers of the gospel, and church friends who have escalated their wine drinking to hard liquor and other stimulants. I have conducted many funerals of those whose premature deaths were directly attributed to their recreational use of alcohol. I know firsthand from my father and all his brothers the damage alcohol consumption causes. I will freely warn people to avoid it, if at all possible. In a modern society it is more than possible.

Mike, I understand what you are saying about the effects that unwise and excessive use of alcohol brings. The results are not typical and they are not a necessary effect. There are plenty of other things that kill more people than moderate alcohol usage.

I believe that proper personal and spiritual formation will enable people to encounter any number of situations and objects without leading to excessive or dangerous experiences.

I think the basis of your argument is that alcohol is bad because it leads to certain undesirable results. But almost all of the results can easily shown to be more commonly caused by other factors.

Obesity causes more deaths than alcohol: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/6438.php

Abuse is caused by other factors and exacerbated by alcohol: http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-causes-domestic-violence/000344 . An abuser is always an abuser. It doesn’t matter if he’s drunk. Excessive consumption of alcohol will reduce his ability to reign in his tendencies.

The majority of traffic accidents are not caused by alcohol: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811385.pdf

Alcohol can certainly increase the risk of death, abuse, or auto accidents…but it is neither the only cause, or the greatest cause.

Alcohol is something that should be approached carefully. I have all the respect in the world for people that choose to not imbibe because they feel it is unwise or sinful for them to do so. But if we are actually concerned about the bad results, then we should be preaching louder against obesity than we are against alcohol.

[Mike Harding]

Micah,

I have dealt with these passages and many others in a very lengthy document on our church website. Feel free to visit it and read carefully the document. www.fbctroy.org//“The Christian and Alcohol”.

In other words, you subscribe to a two wine theory? Is that correct?

I actually strive to be consistent on all of this:

Drinking in moderation: ok. the original concentration or type of alcohol is unimportant to me as long as I am completely in control of myself not damaging my testimony. Additionally, most health studies indicate a positive influence of occasional, moderate drinking.

Smoking: I will not smoke cigarettes because there is a clear and documented connection with detrimental health effects. I would entertain the notion of an occasional cigar or pipe.

Marijuana: I am in favor of medicinal use of marijuana. I will not personally use marijuana unless other treatment options were exhausted. I do not see a viable “recreational use”. The long-term effects of marijuana usage on brain functions are, to my knowledge well-documented. These effects would be, in my mind, similar to the effects of medicinal narcotics that cause overall impairment and scientifically speaking, fuzziness.

Heroin/Cocaine/etc.: all have documented mental and physical impairments in any amount. Someone who abuses these drugs is not in control of themselves.

Poker: poker is a game of skill that I enjoy playing with friends. We use poker chips and no money exchanges hands. there is nothing inherently wrong with the game.

Gambling: I abhor the thought of wasting money in this fashion. But there is no other issue on this front. A person that spends money in a limited and controlled fashion is perfectly fine to me. As in all things in life, excessive waste is bad. I personally choose to not waste money in this way, though I might waste money on travel or a new tie.

Dancing: Why not? It’s biblical to dance. I think that pelvic gyrations cross boundaries of decency and modesty….so those are out. Personally, I don’t have the coordination or desire to dance.


My basic point is this: we have paradigms through which we make decisions. We don’t have to draw the lines in the same ways, but I strive to be consistent. I do not engage in practices that damage my testimony, cause excessive health damage, or limit my ability to control my actions.

Todd,

Gluttony and being overweight are not the same things. Nevertheless, I do preach against gluttony. Food is an absolute necessity of life. Alcohol is not in the least. In many third world countries the population is considerably less obese than Americans yet have a much shorter lifespan due to many factors. Though Americans are heavier today than ever before, they are living longer on average than ever before. Obesity is connected often with a lack of proper exercise and not eating more fruits, vegetables, and grains as well as overeating.

As far as alcohol’s direct contribution to morally corrupt and/or deadly behavior, alcohol beverages today are easily and regularly abused and lead to other forms of wickedness. “And these also reel with wine and stagger from strong drink … They are confused by wine … They totter when rendering judgment” (Isa 28:7). Alcohol abuse is a causal factor in 70% of drownings/chokings, 50% of “freak accidents,” 27,000 deaths per year via liver disease, 30% of suicides, 20% of airplane crashes, 50% of fire deaths, and alcohol contributes to 500,000 injuries per year. Alcoholics outnumber all other addicts. Approximately 77% of all high schoolers use alcohol and nearly 30% drink heavily. Amazingly, over 40% of 8th graders drink. About one in ten of all drinkers will become alcoholics and many more will be problem drinkers and occasionally get drunk. In addition, 45% of all homeless people in America are alcoholics (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism).

According to national surveys, alcohol is a contributing factor in 65% of all murders in the USA, 40% of assaults, 35% of rapes, 55% of domestic violence, 60% of child abuse, 60% of traffic fatalities (Scott Williquette, “The Christian and Alcohol,” Sola). Interestingly, during Prohibition (1920-1933) many social ills in America decreased such as cirrhosis (66% drop), disorderly conduct (50% drop), and the rate of increase in homicide was actually higher before Prohibition than during it (US Government “Wickersham Commission Report” at www.druglibrary.org.). In addition to all of this, regular consumption of alcohol increases one’s chance of heart attacks, cancer, birth defects, insanity, impotence and sterility. In light of the above I don’t believe drinking modern alcoholic beverages as a beverage is an option for Christians except when in circumstances similar to those encountered by NT Christians in the early church era. Even then the same precautions should be taken now as were taken then.

I just read Mike Harding’s paper about the Christian and Alcohol. From my perspective it is well researched and I agree with the conclusions. While the Bible does not say in 100% black & white terms drinking alcohol is wrong, it comes Extremely close.

Regarding dmichah’s list of verses stated above, I feel a list like that is inadequate and potentially misleading. The word “wine” in the Bible can have several different meanings from grapes still on the vine to honey to an actual alcoholic beverage. There are additional uses of the word “wine” as well. Harding’s study on this subject is much better because it delves into the ancient language, analyzes the meaning, describes ancient cultural practices and the reasons for them and compares them to today.

Because this is such a sensitive topic and the word itself in the Bible can have multiple meanings to throw out verses about wine, both for and against, without explaining the meaning and intent of the word in a given context is often inaccurate if not worse.

From my perspective it is well researched and I agree with the conclusions.

So you think eating bread leads to wickedness then?

Not to insinuate I’m “pro”-anything., but I’m anti-mistaken interpetation.

Let me follow up by saying that I appreciate what Pastors Harding and Brumbelow are trying to do. My own father was an abuser of alcohol for the better part of his adult life. My parents’ divorce and his death are directly related to his abuse of alcohol and other substances. I dread the thought of my children ever getting involved in alcohol. I myself have embraced abstinence.

But I don’t want to convince them [my kids] of these dangers by use of mistaken arguments and teaching them to read the Bible with disregard for meaning. That cost is far too high.

Bread = wickedness? No. :-)!

I’m not saying Harding’s paper is perfect (not that I have any reason to think so), but I do think it was well researched. It is precisely the kind of study and effort into this subject that is needed to be as accurate as possible. Simply putting out a list of verses about “wine,” both for or against without background information does not tell the whole truth of the subject.

But most people do not want to do it. They are often simply looking for an easy justification to do what they want, not willing to acknowledge what the Bible actually says about it, or just lazy.

If someone puts as much effort and time as Harding & others into studying this subject and still comes to the conclusion that drinking is OK (I don’t see how this is possible) then at least we know they have solid (in their minds) reasons for their conviction.

My (evangelical) college and seminary just took two chapel messages to address alcohol and Christian freedom from a biblical perspective. Seems germane to the above discussion. I’m sure everyone has 1 1/2 hours to devote to watching these (:)), but they’re worthy food for thought.

Alcohol, Christian Liberty, and Christian Love - Part 1

Alcohol, Christian Liberty, and Christian Love - Part 2

[DavidO]

But I don’t want to convince them [my kids] of these dangers by use of mistaken arguments and teaching them to read the Bible with disregard for meaning. That cost is far too high.

[DavidO]

Let me follow up by saying that I appreciate what Pastors Harding and Brumbelow are trying to do. My own father was an abuser of alcohol for the better part of his adult life. My parents’ divorce and his death are directly related to his abuse of alcohol and other substances. I dread the thought of my children ever getting involved in alcohol. I myself have embraced abstinence.

But I don’t want to convince them [my kids] of these dangers by use of mistaken arguments and teaching them to read the Bible with disregard for meaning. That cost is far too high.

I think this is where I come down on this exactly. I don’t drink. I don’t want my kids to drink. But it is wrong and probably more dangerous to tell them not to drink by twisting the Bible to say something it does not. The two wine theory is a great example of that.

[mmartin]

I just read Mike Harding’s paper about the Christian and Alcohol. From my perspective it is well researched and I agree with the conclusions. While the Bible does not say in 100% black & white terms drinking alcohol is wrong, it comes Extremely close.

…

The bolded part made me think of a statement I heard concerning baptism, that went something like this: Scripture does not say that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, but someone who absolutely refuses baptism is almost certainly unsaved.

I have no idea what that has to do with the discussion, except there are some “almost absolutes” in Scripture that are not spelled out “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not”.

Norman Geisler advocates complete abstinence without feeling any need to obscure the biblical text to strengthen his position. “A Christian Perspective on Wine-Drinking.” Bibliotheca Sacra 139:553 (Jan 82): 46ff.

He points out that wine is not always portrayed negatively. He emphasizes what is clear in Scripture—drunkenness is a sin. He then argues the differences between biblical wine and modern wine. He suggest that while wine is not forbidden, it can be avoided. He personally advocates a strong position against alcohol.

Abstinence positions can be held and supported without any need for completely unconvincing lexical gymnastics.

I find his arguments to be more convincing than attempts to reclassify wine in biblical times.

[mmartin]

I just read Mike Harding’s paper about the Christian and Alcohol. From my perspective it is well researched and I agree with the conclusions. While the Bible does not say in 100% black & white terms drinking alcohol is wrong, it comes Extremely close.

Regarding dmichah’s list of verses stated above, I feel a list like that is inadequate and potentially misleading. The word “wine” in the Bible can have several different meanings from grapes still on the vine to honey to an actual alcoholic beverage. There are additional uses of the word “wine” as well. Harding’s study on this subject is much better because it delves into the ancient language, analyzes the meaning, describes ancient cultural practices and the reasons for them and compares them to today.

Because this is such a sensitive topic and the word itself in the Bible can have multiple meanings to throw out verses about wine, both for and against, without explaining the meaning and intent of the word in a given context is often inaccurate if not worse.

In other words you’re saying the meaning is unknowable? We can’t know if it’s alcoholic wine, therefore, we shouldn’t drink wine?

There’s clearly a scholarly debate as to the expression and extent of definition for “fruit of the vine.” But logically, there is alcohol that can intoxicate, and it is mentioned numerous times in God’s Word. There is clear explanation to not be intoxicated. The “rule” of Scripture would therefore not be a yes/no or “thou shall not”, but an “in your use of these intoxicating beverages, don’t overdo it.”

Since you claim the list to be misleading, which is not its intention, tackle a couple of these verses - Lev. 10:9 & Num 6:3. Why was there a rule for priests, and a unique rule for one taking the Nazarite vow, regarding strong drink if there was a clear theocratic bright line that alcohol was forbidden in any shape or fashion for anyone? If God had made it clear that alcohol was a forbidden and/or unwise beverage, then why this particular guideline? Contextual interpretation trumps single word derivation.

Mike Harding’s paper can be found here. He has a lot of good research collected there and comes down against a two-wine theory. He marshals a lot of clear evidence that yayin and oinos and most of the other words all refer to alcoholic drink in some stage of the fermentation process. I commend him for striving for truth even when not convenient for his ultimate conclusion.

An interesting tidbit brought out by Ken Gentry in his book on wine is this quote from A Religious Encyclopedia of Biblical, Historical, Doctrinal and Practical Theology, edited by Philip Schaff [Chicago: Funk and Wagnalls, 1887]:

In fact, the theory of two kinds of wine — the one fermented and intoxicating and unlawful, and the other unfermented, unintoxicating, and lawful — is a modern hypothesis, devised during the present century, and has no foundation in the Bible, or in Hebrew or classical antiquity.

Link to Google Books for this article on Wine from this 1887 book

Harding’s position depends on the statistics strongly, that he mentions above, but also he seems to favor NT practice and teaching over OT. He does note Isaiah 1:22 which talks of diluted wine as a bad thing. This article seems to show that the dilution of wine was not as widespread and accepted by the Jews - as also does the older Encyclopedia article quoted above.

Additionally, he doesn’t dig into how the OT presents wine as God’s gift, and “the lift to the feelings that wine brings” (Harding’s words). He seems puzzled by that. But as I present in Revisiting Wine and Gladness - it is a line of reasoning that leads to the conclusion that God intended wine to cause those lifting feelings - God created and calls that effect (a natural, physical effect) of wine good.

Going back to Micah’s list of verses then, if the 2-wine theory is a novel invention and doesn’t jive with the lexical evidence, as even Harding admits, then why is it not as simple as listing out those verses and reading “wine” as alcoholic?

I do want to also get back to David Brumbelow’s point on Judges 9:13. Tirosh is used poetically here to refer to the product of the vine, just as we could have a stalk of wheat talk about “my bread.” Additionally there are references to tirosh that are unequivocally alcoholic (Hos. 4:11).

Finally, let me just post this list of verses, to illustrate my point.

Wine connected with Gladness

But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’ (Judges 9:13)

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart. (Ps. 104:14-15)

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (Eccl. 9:7)

Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything. (Eccl. 10:19)

The wine mourns, the vine languishes, all the merry-hearted sigh. (Isaiah 24:7, see also vs. 8-11 and Is. 16:10)

Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. (Zechariah 10:7)

Drunkenness and a Merry Heart

And when their hearts were merry, they said, “Call Samson, that he may entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he entertained them. They made him stand between the pillars. (Judges 16:25)

And Abigail came to Nabal, and behold, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk. So she told him nothing at all until the morning light. In the morning, when the wine had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him, and he became as a stone. (1 Sam. 25:36)

Then Absalom commanded his servants, “Mark when Amnon’s heart is merry with wine, and when I say to you, ‘Strike Amnon,’ then kill him. Do not fear; have I not commanded you? Be courageous and be valiant.” (2 Samuel 13:28 )

On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha and Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, (Esther 1:10)

While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast and make them drunk, that they may become merry, then sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake, declares the Lord. (Jeremiah 51:39)

The word lexically is the same here - the words mean alcoholic drink. It is both praised and at times abused. A clear example is 1 Sam. 25 above. Earlier in the same chapter David’s men are brought wine, and then we see Nabal drinking wine - nothing contextually makes us think those two jugs of wine (David’s and Nabal’s) were different, instead it is the character of the men that is showcased as clearly different.

Wine brings merriment and joy, organically, in both types of passages listed above. There is a limit and a line. But the clear testimony of Scripture is that God gave us wine and its joy-producing qualities, for our good.

Deut. 14:26-28 deserves quoting too but instead I ask you to look it up on your own. This is no sterile offering to the Lord of the land, as could be implied by Harding’s treatment of this passage. This is an exuberant enjoyment of God’s blessed provision of the harvest and all that that brings - the enjoyment of alcoholic drinks made from a variety of grains.

For those wishing to see my view more fully, they can peruse other articles I’ve done on this subject. But my testimony is that I had to change how I thought about something God says he gave us for our good. I was treating God’s gift as a curse, and in doing so, I believe I was maligning the good God who like man, is cheered with wine and will one day drink it with us in the kingdom.