Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

[Brenda T]

The point of discussion is that alcohol is mentioned positively in some instances and the abuse always condemned (of course, we are still discussing this)

Speaking only for myself, that was not part of the discussion I was attempting to have on this thread.

Apologies. it would have been more accurate to state that “a point of contention on this thread is that……”

[Bob Hayton] 1) RE: Marijuana

There are clear differences with what this thread is debating. Marijuana is outlawed in most of the country, and only allowed for limited circumstances in most of the rest of the country. I am not advocating breaking the law. Under-age drinking, drinking and driving, I do not advocate that in any way. Additionally the health benefits of moderate alcohol vs. marijuana are different. And finally one smoke, one small dose of marijuana has an instant effect that alters the mind. That kind of loss of control seems cautioned against in passages that warn us to “be sober,” etc. By contrast, a moderate enjoyment of alcohol does not have that instant loss of control.

Actually, Bob, as I stated before - Marijuana is rapidly becoming decriminialized in many places (20 states according to the wikipedia page I linked to), and in some places the possession of pot for medicinal reasons is actually completely legal; the definition of ‘medical necessity’ seems to include everything from terminal cancer to broken bones (thank you CA). I think that anyone who thinks that one small dose of alcohol doesn’t have an ‘instant effect’ is either deceived or confused.

My only point - which several people on this thread have done the favor of proving - is that it is not consistent to argue that drinking is OK in moderation and then argue that the use of pot in moderation is not OK. In most of the follow up posts, we’re seeing that dichotomy.

[Jay]

I think that anyone who thinks that one small dose of alcohol doesn’t have an ‘instant effect’ is either deceived or confused.

Jay, have you had one small dose of alcohol? Are you speaking from experience? I used to think like that before I actually followed Scriptural’s commendation of wine and had some.

The marijuana piece is really for another thread. It is a bit of a red herring in this discussion. I have not seen any clear argumentation from Scripture against the position of the original post in the manner of some of the posts defending that position. Just a few posts have focused on the Biblical evidence for or against moderate consumption of alcohol.

and everyone else who seems to believe that equating weed and alcohol is consistent. Try this. Today, on Friday, smoke one joint. Actually, don’t smoke the whole joint. Don’t even smoke half of it. Just take a couple of good drags. Tomorrow, on Saturday, drink one beer, or one glass of wine, or one shot of whiskey, whatever. On Sunday, come back and tell the rest of us what happened.

I hope that it’s obvious that I’m being facetious with my request. But, you say that most of the follow up posts have proven that it is not consistent to argue that drinking in moderation is ok and then argue that the use of pot in moderation is not ok. I disagree. Smoking week violates the clear strictures against getting drunk, whether it’s legalized or not. Drinking a beer has an affect, (as does everything you put in your body, every substance that we humans ingest can get you high/drunk. And it’s dangerous to believe otherwise.) but having a beer or a glass of wine or a shot of liquor does NOT, outside of an allergy, get the average sized adult drunk - does NOT. Weed does.

every substance that we humans ingest can get you high/drunk.

Maybe you could define what you mean by “substance.”

Whatever you ingest has a physiological effect. Now, of course, not all those effects are “created equal.” But, point is that you can get high on water. You can get high on the turkey that most of us are going to eat next week. That reality doesn’t mean that water and turkey are comparable to alcohol. Just like claiming that weed and alcohol are equal. Claiming that because one sip of alcohol causes an effect, hence, one sip is wrong, is absurd. If drinking alcohol is a sin, it’s not because one sip causes an effect. That effect does not equal drunk. The effect of one drag of weed most often equals drunk. The effect of a couple of drags of weed almost always equals drunk, and for most us, always does. (assuming that the individual knows how to inhale.)

One of the problems that educators and parents have in regards to substance abuse it that there are way to many holes in the dyke to be able to stick fingers in. I am not a libertarian, and I believe it is good and important that we continue to try. But, kids who want to get high, never have to leave their house. This is another topic for another thread, though.

I was just wondering how something like bread, aspirin, or mints could make me high/drunk (assuming nobody spiked those with anything). Sure, there are physiological effects with those things, but to postulate that they could make me high or drunk was a new one on me.

I can’t remember who compared what to what.

“High” is an almost pointless word. Chocolate gets us high, but not like cocaine. Cocaine gets you high, but not like meth. Meth gets you high, but not like huffing paint. And on and on. In the world of the fallacy of either/or, I would rather a teenager drink a beer than smoke weed. (To be clear, I’m opposed to teenager doing either) On the other hand, in this fallacious world, I would much rather have a teenager (or anyone, for that matter) be a heavy weed user than an alcoholic. Weed is bad for you. No doubt. But alcohol is extremely dangerous in large quantities. Unless something else is wrong with me, I’m not going to die if I smoke weed for 24 hours straight. If I consume alcohol non-stop for that length of time, well, I’m probably going to be dead.

Honestly, I’m not overly concerned that some people on this thread believe that I will be sinning this evening when I drink a glass of beer. It doesn’t hurt my feelings. What I am concerned about is the possibility that bad information in regards to substance abuse is being taught to kids. I’m really hoping that no one on this thread is telling teenagers that drinking a beer and smoking weed are the same thing. That’s really all I’m trying to say.

[Bob Hayton]

…

2) RE: Alcohol’s innate morality

On Lee’s point about Alcohol being an inanimate object that is endowed with morality, this flies in the face of all of Scripture’s teaching on creation. Man alone is moral. (Demons aside). It is man who can interact with any natural object in a morally good way or not. Man is instructed to do all to the glory of God, so the very way we drink orange juice (as John Piper has argued) is up for grabs when it comes to morality.

Furthermore, drunkenness is consistently pointed out as a lapse in judgment and the cuase is at the feet of the drunk. I would hope that we don’t buy into the naturalism which says that the alcoholic can’t help himself and that the drink made him do it. He’s a helpless victim, let’s berate the substance not the person. Sounds like the opinion that all we need to do is educate and feed everyone equally and we will have utopia. Sin always starts in the heart - Jesus taught this clearly and his teaching is directly applicable to this question:

There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him. (Mk. 7:15, see the entire passage, 7:14-23)

…

Precisely why I contend that drinking alcohol is NEVER the same as drinking any other beverage. NEVER under any circumstances, because it holds a unique position given by God through Scripture under inspiration and preserved providentially by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I guess the clear statement of Jesus that **nothing** that goes into someone, can defile them, doesn’t include alcohol, which is **something**. Jesus’ statement is clear and the genre is direct, the genre of Proverbs is poetic by all accounts. So your interpretation of Proverbs flies in the face of Jesus’ clear statement in Mk. 7 and for that matter, Paul’s statement in 1 Tim. 4:4 that: “For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.”

It is always safer to let clear passages trump our interpretation of less clear passages.

[Bob Hayton]

[Jay]

I think that anyone who thinks that one small dose of alcohol doesn’t have an ‘instant effect’ is either deceived or confused.

Jay, have you had one small dose of alcohol? Are you speaking from experience? I used to think like that before I actually followed Scriptural’s commendation of wine and had some.

Bob,

If what I’m saying is wrong - then why do you drink wine and not lemonade or Coke (or _______________________)? Aren’t you getting something a little different from those beverages than you would from the non-alcoholic beverages that you also drink?

I can tell you from a personal/professional perspective - we have alcohol at fundraising events for the NPO I work at. Why is that? Because people who drink wine are generally more relaxed and more apt to spend money or donate. Of course, there are people who come and drink harder alcohol - vodka or whatever - but for this discussion I’m keeping it to recreational wine drinkers.

Honestly, I’m not overly concerned that some people on this thread believe that I will be sinning this evening when I drink a glass of beer. It doesn’t hurt my feelings. What I am concerned about is the possibility that bad information in regards to substance abuse is being taught to kids. I’m really hoping that no one on this thread is telling teenagers that drinking a beer and smoking weed are the same thing. That’s really all I’m trying to say.

Hey John-

I agree with you, and my only point - again - was that the argumentation (as I’ve seen it on this thread) for the casual use of alcohol can be copied almost exactly for the casual use of pot, and actually the case for pot is (IMHO) more compelling since the side effects of pot (when used medicinally) are more palliative. I’ve talked with enough pot smokers to know that is exactly where they go when challenged. I don’t think that people who drink wine/beer are in sin, but I do think they are acting unwisely and would like them to reconsider.

I’m not the only one out there that sees this, and it’s simply a matter of time before someone who does smoke pot uses the same arguments that the pro-wine people are making now. That’s human nature. So if someone wants to argue against pot but for alcohol, they’re going to need to think a little more critically than they may be doing now.

[Bob Hayton]

I guess the clear statement of Jesus that **nothing** that goes into someone, can defile them, doesn’t include alcohol, which is **something**. Jesus’ statement is clear and the genre is direct, the genre of Proverbs is poetic by all accounts. So your interpretation of Proverbs flies in the face of Jesus’ clear statement in Mk. 7 and for that matter, Paul’s statement in 1 Tim. 4:4 that: “For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.”

It is always safer to let clear passages trump our interpretation of less clear passages.

So you would argue this for marijuana, right? Or heroin?

;)

You asked Bob, and I’m not answering for him (never even met the dude, as far as I know), but I’ll explain why I drink wine instead of lemonade.

As the yeast eats the sugar during the fermentation process, differing flavor profiles are created. Variables include, among others - the amount of time the wine/beer is allowed to ferment, the rate of fermentation, the yeast strain used, and the temperature that the wine/beer is fermented at. For example, lagers, which I don’t drink, are bottom-fermented, which means at lower temperatures. Bavarian brewers discovered “bottom fermenting” in the early 15th century. In the 19th century, after chemists began to have a better understanding of fermentation, different yeast strains were developed to facilitate bottom-fermenting and top-fermenting. This has a tremendous impact on flavor. If you, or anyone, were to have me over and offer me the choice between a lager or lemonade. I’m picking the lemonade because I’m confidant that I will like the taste better. I prefer Stouts, Russian Imperial Stouts, to be specific. If you offer me a Old Rasputin or a lemonade, I’m picking the Stout. I’m picking it, because I KNOW that I’ll like the taste better. And the fermentation process is integral to creating that taste. Alcohol isn’t incidental to beer and wine. It allows those of us who know what we’re looking for clues as to what flavor profiles to expect or if there were any problems during the building of the beer or wine. The Old Rasputin Stout I mentioned is 9% abv. If you were to offer me a Russian Imperial Stout with an abv of only 5%, I’m assuming that there will be problems in the aroma and flavor profile, as well as the mouthfeel, and I’ll assume that I won’t be a big fan.

I agree, people who drink without knowledge are probably drinking for the wrong reasons and they should probably consider abstaining.

but the only pro-pot argument I saw on this thread was in relation to the effect. That is what I was responding to. The merits of the pro-alcohol arguments on this thread are all over the map and I’m trying to stay out of it.

I’ve had pro-pot people try to use the Bible to justify smoking weed to me. But, if an individual agrees with the assertion that God forbids drunkenness, then there is no valid argument for Believers to smoke weed.

Before I was a Believer, I was pot-head, and I’ve had to consider the question “What will I do if the government legalizes the recreational use of weed?” I’ve concluded, based on my understanding of the passages concerning drunkenness, combined with my knowledge of drugs (weed) that as a Believer, weed is off-limits. The only reason for me to smoke weed is to get high/drunk.