Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

[Jay]

[Bob Hayton]

[Jay]

I think that anyone who thinks that one small dose of alcohol doesn’t have an ‘instant effect’ is either deceived or confused.

Jay, have you had one small dose of alcohol? Are you speaking from experience? I used to think like that before I actually followed Scriptural’s commendation of wine and had some.

Bob,

If what I’m saying is wrong - then why do you drink wine and not lemonade or Coke (or _______________________)? Aren’t you getting something a little different from those beverages than you would from the non-alcoholic beverages that you also drink?

I can tell you from a personal/professional perspective - we have alcohol at fundraising events for the NPO I work at. Why is that? Because people who drink wine are generally more relaxed and more apt to spend money or donate. Of course, there are people who come and drink harder alcohol - vodka or whatever - but for this discussion I’m keeping it to recreational wine drinkers.

Jay,

Yes - alcohol has an effect at one drink. But that effect is totally different than being drunk. It is that effect at one mouthful that stands behind the “joyful effects” of wine that I believe God praises and Scripture commends. So yes there is an effect - but it is not a mind-blowing, loss of reality and control such as the effect (I’m told) from smoking marijuana.

I drink beer or wine for that joyful effect and also the overall experience - and I never lose my mind, or lose control in a contrary to “be ye sober” kind of way.

So you can observe the effect of one drink. Have you seen one drink instantly cause someone to be hammered/plastered/totally drunk?

Marijuana in itself to answer your other questions, doesn’t defile us. But the choice to be affected mentally by it is wrong. Hence I don’t partake of it. The only defense I have of it is that just like tylenol or codeine, it is something that God has given us to medicate pain. Scripture doesn’t teach against medicating pain so I am not against a legitimate medical use of marijuana, where legal.

Hopefully that is clear enough and I can no longer continue replying to arguments about marijuana, I’d rather we deal with the textual arguments for or against drinking alcohol, if we are going to continue the thread at all in any kind of positive sense….

I find it hard to believe that the contrast was needed. People who smoke weed, always (with the exception of terminal patients) smoke with the intent of getting high (drunk). People (my friends and I) drink for reasons that have nothing to do with getting drunk.

I am not sure why you find it hard to believe you should argue for a position. Perhaps there are some people who will merely take your word for it, but I imagine the only people who would take your assertion without evidence are those who are sympathetic to it. Regardless of what side one is on, we should expect at least a modicum of argument. But I will drop it. Perhaps next time we can get a more robust examination of it.

But I will say that I know people who say they smoke weed for the pleasure it brings them. They will have a joint or two on the weekends to relax with friends, to end their day. It is relaxing to them, just like wine is to others. They don’t lose control and do stupid stuff. They aren’t out of their minds. So yes it is different in some ways, but it is very similar in some. They say that getting high off of marijuana and getting drunk is not the same level of mind-alteration. In the scheme of things, wine and marijuana are more similar, than say something like crack or LSD or heroin (and more similar to drunkenness).

I have not experienced either, so I taking the word of people who do it as to why they do it and as to what effects it has on them.

What’s particularly ironic, though, is that you use a verse that warns against alcohol to prohibit weed while permitting alcohol.

There are no reasons for non-terminally ill people to smoke weed outside of getting high. There are many reasons to drink alcohol besides getting drunk/high.

According to whom? Again, you want people just to take your word for it.

I have long said that I don’t think drinking alcohol is a sin. I don’t think the Bible forbids it. I think it’s stupid and unnecessary. I think it is dangerous and unwise, particularly in our culture where we have better options that achieve the same or essentially similar ends. But it doesn’t bother me if someone does it, even in my presence. I am not the least bit tempted to drink alcohol (or smoke weed).

[Bob Hayton]

So you can observe the effect of one drink. Have you seen one drink instantly cause someone to be hammered/plastered/totally drunk?

Marijuana in itself to answer your other questions, doesn’t defile us. But the choice to be affected mentally by it is wrong. Hence I don’t partake of it…

Hopefully that is clear enough and I can no longer continue replying to arguments about marijuana, I’d rather we deal with the textual arguments for or against drinking alcohol, if we are going to continue the thread at all in any kind of positive sense….

Actually, yes, I’ve seen people start with a ‘hard’ liquor shot (vodka, I think) and the effect was immediate and obvious on her small frame (I don’t know her weight, but I had easily 20-30 pounds on her at the time). I’ve had people with two or three drinks unable to walk - one time I ended up escorting the person to a waiting taxi because they couldn’t walk straight - and I think all she’d had was wine and champagne; we did not have ‘hard’ liquor on the premises.

It happens most often to young women (early-mid 20s) that weigh anywhere from 100-130 pounds, who are young or naieve, and who are trying to either ‘fit in’ or mask their own insecurities/issues. We’ve had parties for ‘young professionals’ where young women who were talked into trying vodka or some other drink just to fit in because ‘everyone else was doing it) that ended very badly for all concerned. I could give you all kinds of stories, but I think you get my point.

It’s here that the admonition of Proverbs 23 is best:

19 Hear, my son, and be wise, and direct your heart in the way.
20 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat,
21 for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

22 Listen to your father who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old.
23 Buy truth, and do not sell it; buy wisdom, instruction, and understanding.
24 The father of the righteous will greatly rejoice; he who fathers a wise son will be glad in him.
25 Let your father and mother be glad; let her who bore you rejoice.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes?
30 Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine.
31 Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly.
32 In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.
33 Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things.
34 You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, like one who lies on the top of a mast.
35 “They struck me,” you will say, “but I was not hurt; they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake? I must have another drink.”

Again, not the same thing, but a road that is best avoided entirely for all kinds or reasons.

The only defense I have of it is that just like tylenol or codeine, it is something that God has given us to medicate pain. Scripture doesn’t teach against medicating pain so I am not against a legitimate medical use of marijuana, where legal.

Again, this is exactly the argument used for pot. After all, didn’t God give us every plant and didn’t he call them all ‘good’ (Genesis 1:11-13)?

Boy, if I keep this up and I might argue myself into trying pot! ;)

[Bob Hayton]

I guess the clear statement of Jesus that **nothing** that goes into someone, can defile them, doesn’t include alcohol, which is **something**. Jesus’ statement is clear and the genre is direct, the genre of Proverbs is poetic by all accounts. So your interpretation of Proverbs flies in the face of Jesus’ clear statement in Mk. 7 and for that matter, Paul’s statement in 1 Tim. 4:4 that: “For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.”

It is always safer to let clear passages trump our interpretation of less clear passages.

There is no tension here.

In Prov. 23 what is doing the defiling? The alcohol? No, it is what always does the defiling: in this case, the lust of the eyes played out; the perverse utterings of the heart; i.e., “…that which cometh out of man….”

There are an untold number of “things” that are capable of releasing these lustful, perverse defilements from within. However, there are few (none other that I am aware of) that are accompanied by a specific scripture admonition that basically states “this defilement is what is going to happen if this object is pursued”; therefore, “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red….,” Whether poetic or didactic you have to admit it is a pretty straightforward and broad admonition.

I’m assuming that on this thread I’m not speaking to potheads. Potheads make stupid claims. I did when I was a pothead. Potheads waste a lot of oxygen defending their potheadness. I’ve had to combat those stupid claims in classrooms. I’m not sorry for assuming that I wouldn’t need to on this thread. Potheads like to justify their activity by appealing to all kinds of things - from the drinking of alcohol to the eating of McDonalds to the fact that some of them believe that Adam smoked weed in the Garden of Eden; how else could he have named all those animals, goes the argument. Potheads are potheads and should be listened to accordingly.

The contrast between the two that I’ve stated is that there is no reason to smoke weed recreationally other than to get high. I’m not sure what proofs you want. Maybe I’m naive as to other’s understanding of things like alcohol, weed, and substances in general. The fact that you would compare the high of LSD to that of heroin is puzzling to me. I know that you don’t like that word, but no one needs to have ever experienced the highs of either to know that one is a hallucinogen and the other is a narcotic. By definition they are different. What’s to argue? By definition weed and alcohol are different. What’s to argue?

In the pull-quote of mine you used, which part are you wanting me to offer proof for? That there are no reasons to recreationally smoke weed except to get high? Seriously? You said that you know people who smoke weed to help them relax. Yes. Of course they do. What do you think that means? They’re getting high. You’ll never hear me use “it helps me to relax” as an argument for drinking alcohol. And, of course those who are high solely on weed aren’t doing crazy things. They’re weed high. All they want to do is eat cheeze-puffs and argue about Star Trek. But they’re still high (drunk) and it’s still wrong no matter how nicely they play with others while high. Which brings me to your claim that the high from weed is more similar to the effects of wine than it is to the list of completely different substances you laid out. No. Not if you’re talking about heroin. Maybe LSD. Although comparing the high from weed, the high from LSD, and the high from wine is like comparing the sensation of being comfortably drowzy first thing in the morning, with the sensation of sleep-deprivation, with the sensation of being tired and cranky at night. By definition, the three substances are different, which means that their highs are different. The effects are different. Out of all the substances you listed, weed high and heroin high are the closest. Marijuana, and specifically the thc, is more closely related to opiates (narcotics) than are the other things you listed.

If you want me to make an argument for drinking alcohol other than getting drunk - there are reasons to drink alcohol that don’t require getting drunk, in fact, many of those reasons preclude getting drunk. Here are two of them - 1. I like the flavor. I like the way it tastes. If I’m drunk, I’m not tasting it. For the record, I don’t like the flavor of all beer. I don’t drink the beer. 2. It aids in the flavor of food. Beer is actually more versatile than wine in food pairing. A delicious hamburger is made even better by a good American Pale Ale. And, no, that interaction can’t be duplicated with non-alcoholic drinks or even another type of alcoholic drink (I explained a little about that in a comment above). Once again, if I’m drunk, I can’t really taste my hamburger.

Unless we get into the chemistry of it, or you take my suggestion about smoking a joint today and drinking a glass of beer tomorrow, there ain’t a more “robust examination.” In one of my comments above, as I stated, I go into a little more detail about the fermentation process and how it affects flavor. Other than that, I don’t know what else to say other than you’re going to have to take my word for it that I drink alcohol for reasons other than getting high/drunk.

I have to say that I find it a little amusing that you accuse me of wanting people to take me at my word in the same comment in which you admit that you take the word of those who get high.

“Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly”

In the above verse the focus has turned to the substance itself instead of other celebratory reasons.

The drink offerings with the sacrifices shows God approves of alcohol use. By my calculation it was about 2 bottles of wine per young lamb. So if 10 people were to partake of the Passover lamb, going by the ratio of the sacrifice pictured (of course no binding regulation is necessarily presented) it amounts to a glass of wine for each observant member. I think one can argue “moderation” from the picture presented in the sacrifice in that it was proportional.

When Jesus instituted the New Covenant, it speaks of at least two cups that are passed around. These were serious and sacred observances with alcoholic wine use.

Also, it must be noted that with every breath expired of imbibers, alcohol is slowly released from the body. If the celebrants were at a wedding reception where Hebrew dancing was involved, they would sober up much more quickly. Food of course dilutes the effect substantially.

to those who drink wine to relax. I don’t, and, to be honest, I’m not entirely comfortable with the claim. But, that being said, I don’t always know what you mean by “relax.” Wine drinkers can “relax” with wine a long way away from drunk. Being drunk isn’t relaxing for most people.

It’s extremely difficult for potheads to “relax” with weed without being high. Unless it’s brick swag AND they smoke a LOT, it only takes a couple of good drags to get high. The high is relaxing. That’s what it’s smoked for.

[Bob Hayton]

I guess the clear statement of Jesus that **nothing** that goes into someone, can defile them, doesn’t include alcohol, which is **something**. Jesus’ statement is clear and the genre is direct, the genre of Proverbs is poetic by all accounts. So your interpretation of Proverbs flies in the face of Jesus’ clear statement in Mk. 7 and for that matter, Paul’s statement in 1 Tim. 4:4 that: “For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.”

It is always safer to let clear passages trump our interpretation of less clear passages.

So Bob, how does this work with poison? Does poison not defile a person? Before you say that is something manmade, please remember that it is the fermentation process performed by man that gives you your precious alcohol. I find this entire thread bad comedy at this point.

I would love to see some of you pro-alcohol guys seriously engage one another on the issue of pot. I would venture it would be as entertaining as seeing Calvinists try to out Calvin each other (that is a fun experience if you haven’t seen that).

“Why are so many Christians relaxing over drinks?”

You’ve got to admit there has been a change:

• Colleges (mentioned in the article)
• New church plants many times omit the promise to “abstain from intoxicating beverages” from the church covenant
• In my own experience the call to abstain is not emphasized

Outside of my own fundamentalist church …. most Christians I know at work drink in moderation

[Jim]

“Why are so many Christians relaxing over drinks?”

You’ve got to admit there has been a change:

• Colleges (mentioned in the article)
• New church plants many times omit the promise to “abstain from intoxicating beverages” from the church covenant
• In my own experience the call to abstain is not emphasized

Outside of my own fundamentalist church …. most Christians I know at work drink in moderation

There has most definitely been a change. I have the opportunity to work with young people on a regular basis, a significant percentage from solid churches, Christian schools, and Bible colleges. Of the observable trending changes what I have noticed:

Immoral relationships at some level is not the exception, it is the common fact.

Drinking to be social is the expectation.

Even the apparently most spiritually minded are far more involved in what somebody says about what Scripture is saying than in discovering what Scripture is saying.

Strictly my observations.

In old China the practice of foot-binding was prevalent. The bones of the feet would be crushed and broken as a child to create a smaller, “more beautiful” foot. Probably even Chinese Christians even partook in this practice, in good conscience. Am I “limiting something that Scripture doesn’t limit” by saying that that was inadvisable as well?

Yes, but I don’t consider that a problem. I am not claiming that if the Bible doesn’t forbid something, we can’t either. But a lot do. I think there are lots of reasons to forbid something Scripture doesn’t. Perhaps you agree.

Yes, I am saying that alcohol is harmful to the body. It is destructive to brain cells, to the liver, and it affects reason. From some of the reasoning which advocates alcohol here, makes me wonder if some of the writers have not been imbibing a bit themselves. (Just kidding.) And to answer another, no, God did not make alcoholic beverages; man did. If it is seen being used in Scripture, it is quite obviously not advocated in a positive sense because it is destructive to the body (temple of the Holy Spirit). The only rational use for it in this day when its adverse affects are known would be as medicine, as in the case advocated by Paul for Timothy. Since alcohol is so easily abused, and since no one knows if it might exercise an addictive influence in his life with all the harm that results individually and societally, it only makes sense to shy from it. It is not needed to satisfy thirst or to satiate the nutritional needs of the body, so why use it? Seems like this discussion is resulting either in seeking to prove each other wrong about whether the use of wine in permitted by the Bible, or in proving a believer’s liberty to use alcohol. In either case, it is really not helping to do more than polarize opinion. If Jesus ever drank alcoholic wine, I am sure we can all agree that He would not advocate its wide-scale use and abuse today and would call His followers to give a good example by the way they deal with this harmful substance. Paul himself said that if wine might cause a brother to stumble, he would drink NO wine ever. I think that means even in private. So, do Christian institutions strengthen their influence in the world of unbelievers by arguing for the use of wine? I’ll leave it to each one to answer, knowing that whatever answer I give, there will be some to refute it . I leave discussion of the subject on this blog by saying, “I have seen and have read books that explore this subject from the standpoint of abstinence that are equally as scholarly as any suggested here. Just to note that linguists and scholars haven’t settled the question either. Maybe we’ll just have to leave it with 1 Cor. 10:31. Cheers! oops, I mean Peace!

I can’t believe no one has pointed out that weed is in Scripture….

Ever heard of Moses and the Burning Bush? :D

I realize that, while profitable and beneficial, church covenants are not the Bible. I believe the abstinence clause is a later addition and not found in older covenants.