Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

[Bob Hayton]

Lee,

I note that you have not interacted with the Scriptural arguments and exegesis I have provided in previous posts in this thread. ..

Read with interest your article. Not surprisingly we are poles apart. Interesting that you suggest I’d dismiss your piece de resistance as “just explain[ing] away the text”. I’m not sure that I’d go that far, but maybe you were acting from your own perception of your own piece, because, from a guy who does not know you at all, the initial impression is of one starting from a preclusion and not of one drawing a conclusion. Just one man’s not so humble observation.

I do find it extremely interesting that in your effort of “follow[ing] Scriptures wholistic teaching on wine” that you can work within the bookends of its introduction—“And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent (Gen. 9:21)”—to its last presentation in the beverage sense—“For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries…(I Peter 4:3)”—wandering through the myriad mentionings of its seemingly beneficial properties and of the warnings and condemnations of its use/abuse, its delineation as the difference between the righteous/wise and unrighteous/foolish, its propensity to direct towards moral and spiritual turpitude, and still determine that alcohol was introduced by God as His good plan/gift for His people. That is almost on par (on a much grander scale) with determining from Scripture that war is God’s plan and good gift for His people. Fermentation is a product of the fall; war is a product of the fall (or course, there are a lot of other things that fall into that list as well). The sovereignty of God utilizes these things and others for His glory though, for sure, things like war are not His plan, gift, or even representative of His nature. It is not inconsistent in the workings of God in Scripture to utilize, allow, even tacitly “endorse” things that are against His very nature that, by the end of Scripture revelation, are revealed to be abhorrent to Him, some of which are specifically addressed; others not so much. Divorce/polygamy, war/genocide, slavery, and other such “necessary evils” spring to mind. While a person could go to scripture and make a case for any one of these things, the overall Scripture revelation denies that conclusion.

More specifically, there are some issues that particularly stood out in your blog presentation, not the least of which is that I think the translation you chose does not do justice with the proverb. The tenor of the set of proverbs involved (chapter, if you please) primarily warns of direction and association—vs. 17-18; vs. 20-21; vs. 26-28; vs 29-35. “Strange things” is inconsistent with this tenor and with the other ways it is translated throughout Proverbs. “Strange women”, however (the KJV and literal translation) , is consistent, and communicates what is also being communicated in the immediately preceding proverbs. Jealousy of the apparent well-being of the “sinner”, being “among winebibbers”, “hearken[ing] unto thy father”, and associating with a “whore”, all direct towards a predictable, though not necessarily absolute, moral end. The emphasis is that there is moral influence in each of these. That is what is communicated in vs 29-35 as well, not that it is a picture of the alcoholic, but that the wine will influence one to a predictable, if not absolute, moral outcome. With that in mind, when you go to the imperative of the New Testament to “flee immorality”, which is inarguably absolute, it would be laughable to suggest that incorporating that which has been determined under inspiration to predictably influence to immorality as the good gift of God for His people to fulfill His directive.

Lee, if fermentation is a product of the fall, do you believe that the wine we will drink in the kingdom will be non-alcoholic?

Islamic police destroy 240,000 bottles of beer in Nigeria (11-28-2013)

KANO, NIGERIA – Islamic police shouted “God is great” as an earth-mover shattered 240,000 bottles of beer in a widening crackdown in Nigeria’s northern city of Kano.

Alcohol is banned under Shariah law imposed here in 2001.

At the public destruction of beer Wednesday the head of the religious police board warned his officers will put an end to alcohol consumption.

Bars…were the target of multiple bombings July 29 that killed 24 people, carried out by suspected Islamic militants who have charged authorities are not properly applying the Shariah law that governs nine of Nigeria’s 37 states.

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[Greg Long]

Lee, if fermentation is a product of the fall, do you believe that the wine we will drink in the kingdom will be non-alcoholic?

I don’t know that I’d say that fermentation is a part of (by which I think you mean a result of) the fall, but I think that wine in the future kingdom will be and affect believers differently since we will have glorified bodies. But since we aren’t talking about alcohol consumption in heaven or pre-fall, I feel like this is a bit of a red herring.

[Jay]

Greg Long wrote:

Lee, if fermentation is a product of the fall, do you believe that the wine we will drink in the kingdom will be non-alcoholic?

I don’t know that I’d say that fermentation is a part of (by which I think you mean a result of) the fall, but I think that wine in the future kingdom will be and affect believers differently since we will have glorified bodies. But since we aren’t talking about alcohol consumption in heaven or pre-fall, I feel like this is a bit of a red herring.

“Result of” is good. Like the Grand Canyon is a result of God’s judging the world. :) Maybe I should have stated that alcoholic beverage as we know it now would have never existed if not for the introduction of sin. With that in mind it is difficult for me to go out on the limb and biblically state “fermentation is what God had in mind as a ‘blessing’; as a ‘good gift for His people’ in creating the fruit of the vine.”

Hi Lee,

So your assertion is, what, that bread was impossible prior to the fall? The same process crucial to making wine produces bread.

So what was the growth cycle of yeast prior to the fall?

Also, how do you know this?

After observing a number of inebriated raccoons stumble about under my plumb tree after binging on dropped, fermented fruit it dawned on me that fermentation is really a product of decay, a result of the fall. [Sidebar: completely unrelated to the topic at hand, but useful information none-the-less—Don’t mess with a coon with a hangover!!]

Whether the same case can be made for bread is speculative and completely irrelevant, although the fact that leaven is consistently a picture for sin throughout scripture would tilt me towards that speculation. What we do know about bread as opposed to wine is that bread (or anything else for that matter) is not singled out as being a scorner, brawler, with the ability to direct towards nakedness and immorality like wine is. Again, I contend scripturally, drinking alcoholic wine is never the same as eating or drinking any other food or beverage.

bread … is not singled out as being a scorner, brawler, with the ability to direct towards nakedness and immorality like wine is.

Really?

For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

(I should disclaim I’m using a borrowed hermeneutic, not my own, in posting Prov. 4:17 here.)

Lee,

Are you indicating you don’t believe leaves dropped from trees and composted before the fall? What basis do you have for this assertion?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Lee,

Are you indicating you don’t believe leaves dropped from trees and composted before the fall? What basis do you have for this assertion?

Leaven is NOT consistently a picture of sin throughout Scripture. It was presented as a peace offering to the Lord in Leviticus 7:13 and Amos 4:5.

As to things dying before The Fall: I’m sure that the vegetation that Adam and Eve ate died as it was digested.

[Jay]

Chip Van Emmerik wrote:

Lee,

Are you indicating you don’t believe leaves dropped from trees and composted before the fall? What basis do you have for this assertion?

And what basis do you have for arguing they didn’t? ;)

Lee,

Leaves drop and compost. I don’t have to prove it happens. It’s up to you to prove this natural process wasn’t ocurring before the fall.