Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

Those on the “it’s o.k. to drink” side do not all appear to hold that view for the same reasons. Some define moderation as drinking in a manner that has no altering effect whatsoever on their bodies, minds, etc. While others, such as Bob, say that intoxicating effects (which he says can be felt after a few sips of wine) is desirable. If you look at Bob’s articles he referenced and linked to, you will see that he has posited that drinking is not only permissible, but recommended for Christians, and that the purpose of drinking is for the intoxicating effects as it produces a special type of joy/blessing from God that can come only from alcohol.

Here are some quotes from two of his articles:

“the intoxicating nature of wine is being praised”

“a merry heart is specifically connected with drunkenness.”

“Wine causes merriness (the sort that is displayed by drunken people, as well as other sorts of merriness). And this very merriment-inducing quality is what God praises.”

No, Bob does not advocate drunkenness, but his arguments are clearly in favor of “intoxicating effects” (his words).

[Mike Harding]

Why stop with undiluted, alcoholic wine and beer for recreational use? Why not promote whiskey, vodka, gin, and other hard liquors? While we are at it, add a few smokes or even marijuana, cocaine, heroin, angel dust, or the drug of the month club. All in moderation of course! After all, none of these things are a fundamental of the faith. Yes, some of these things are currently illegal, but in time we can change that as well. In fact, I can think of a whole lot of things to add to the list that are not a fundamental of the faith. Maybe we can all meet at the local Casino and gamble, play poker, drink, and smoke together. It would be a great place for a Christian college faculty reunion or deacon board meeting. All this and heaven too!

Mike, I’m sure that you’re not using a “slippery slope” logical fallacy here. But just to clarify, the morality of an action should be judged on its own merits…not based upon what we assume might be connected to that action.

[DavidO]

Historically, it wasn’t until the fermentation process was invented and then applied to grape juice in the mid to late 1800s that non-alcoholic wine was used in communion for churches. And there was a slow adoption of that.

I’m positive you mean pasteurization process.

Thanks for catching that big oops!

I have seen at least 4 logical fallacies that have been employed by the pro-drinking side in this discussion thread. If we’re going to start pointing out logical fallacies of argumentation, point them all out.

“The most essential evil of drinking alcohol is that it substitutes unnatural joy for the supernatural joy of the Lord.” Dr. Frank Sells

Eph. 5:18

[Brenda T]

I have seen at least 4 logical fallacies that have been employed by the pro-drinking side in this discussion thread. If we’re going to start pointing out logical fallacies of argumentation, point them all out.

Such as name-calling? “Pro-drinking” isn’t the same thing as “allow people to drink.”

Before someone jumps on Shaynus, I want to second the importance of the point he is making. I am an abstainer. I think wisdom teaches us it is best to abstain for a variety of reasons, and that is how I counsel people. However, I don’t think scripture forbids imbibing. While I don’t acknowledge a total scriptural prohibition against drinking, I would certainly not be considered pro-drinking. Unfortunately, this still sometimes puts me in a difficult situation. I would be able to join a church with a membership covenant stating the church takes the position that members will avoid alcohol, but I would not be able to join one that states members deem alcohol consumption is sin.

“Pro” means “to be in favor of”. It doesn’t mean that you do it yourself. There are people who are pro gay marriage, but that doesn’t mean they will marry someone of the same sex. It simply means they are in favor of it as a permissible, allowable thing (i.e. they are not against it) and they will argue that it should be allowed for others.

I certainly had no derogatory or name-calling intent with my attempt to identify a view.

Todd,

Alcohol is the gateway drug for our young people. It is not a slippery slope; rather, recreational alcohol is more like a cascading waterfall carrying millions upon millions to terminal disease, death, moral corruption, and spiritual enslavement. For most people today, recreational alcohol use is a choice, not a necessity as it was to some degree in NT times. Even then they regularly diluted their wine with water to reduce its potentially damaging effects, not to mention the serving of fresh wine which had little if any alcoholic content or the other methods of preparation cited by Dave.

I have had plenty of conversations with former students, classmates, former ministers of the gospel, and church friends who have escalated their wine drinking to hard liquor and other stimulants. I have conducted many funerals of those whose premature deaths were directly attributed to their recreational use of alcohol. I know firsthand from my father and all his brothers the damage alcohol consumption causes. I will freely warn people to avoid it, if at all possible. In a modern society it is more than possible.

[Brenda T]

I have seen at least 4 logical fallacies that have been employed by the pro-drinking side in this discussion thread. If we’re going to start pointing out logical fallacies of argumentation, point them all out.

Yes, I would rather that you did point them all out. Honest discussion has nothing to fear from logic.

I try to point them out whenever I see them. I’m obviously more inclined to notice them on the opposing side of the argument. Please point them out as you see them.

Fire Away!

Jerry Jenkins, Chairman of the Board of Moody Bible Institute, has admitted that he plays poker for odds, i.e. gambles, and finds no problem that his son works in a Casino as a gambler. So if drinking is okay, why not gambling? (Tongue in cheek)

[Todd Bowditch]

[Mike Harding]

Why stop with undiluted, alcoholic wine and beer for recreational use? Why not promote whiskey, vodka, gin, and other hard liquors? While we are at it, add a few smokes or even marijuana, cocaine, heroin, angel dust, or the drug of the month club. All in moderation of course! After all, none of these things are a fundamental of the faith. Yes, some of these things are currently illegal, but in time we can change that as well. In fact, I can think of a whole lot of things to add to the list that are not a fundamental of the faith. Maybe we can all meet at the local Casino and gamble, play poker, drink, and smoke together. It would be a great place for a Christian college faculty reunion or deacon board meeting. All this and heaven too!

Mike, I’m sure that you’re not using a “slippery slope” logical fallacy here. But just to clarify, the morality of an action should be judged on its own merits…not based upon what we assume might be connected to that action.

Actually, Todd, Mike does make a valid point with the mentioning of marijuana, which is now legal in some form in 10 states. I think we would all agree that taking hard drugs (heroin, coke, angel dust, 180 proof vodka, etc.) is unscriptural. This is also, BTW, the brilliance of Paul’s argument in I Cor. 10 - if Paul HAD said “Thou shalt not drink alcohol”, we’d be seeing a lot of “But there’s no prohibition against pot!” arguments.

Anyone here want to argue that drinking is OK but marijuana use is not? That might be an interesting discussion.

[Brenda T]

“Pro” means “to be in favor of”. It doesn’t mean that you do it yourself. There are people who are pro gay marriage, but that doesn’t mean they will marry someone of the same sex. It simply means they are in favor of it as a permissible, allowable thing (i.e. they are not against it) and they will argue that it should be allowed for others.

I certainly had no derogatory or name-calling intent with my attempt to identify a view.

Can’t speak for Shaynus, but I didn’t think you had a negative intent. However, I think it’s an important point. I do not think scripture give a blanket prohibition against drinking, but neither am I “in favor of” drinking (as I explained earlier).

Scripture is the standard in this debate. So those on the abstinence side of the debate, have the burden of proof Scripturally to show how it is specifically wrong and sinful to engage in drinking. Engage God’s teaching on this subject. You may abstain for personal reasons, but it will not be the “biblical high ground.”

• Wine was incorporated as a part of worship - Exodus 29:40
• Priests were told not to drink wine or strong drink (note the inclusion of strong drink) when performing their duties. Implication was there were other times it was acceptable. Leviticus 10:9
• Wine included as a blessing of life, as common as food and children - Deuteronomy 7:13
• Express inclusion that blessings upon animals, agriculture and wine making were from God and to be shared - Deuteronomy 29:6
• Wine in the Bible can make you drunk - 1 Samuel 1:14
• Ezra ensure the priests had copious amounts of wine - Ezra 7:22
• Drinking of wine considered to be a celebration of a holy day - Nehemiah 8:10
• Wine gladdens man’s heart - Psalm 104:15
• The misuse of alcohol is considered unwise. Not the USE - Proverbs 23:30
• Enjoy life with the alcohol - Ecclesiastes 9:7
• Wine is a special gift from God - Isaiah 62:8
• Removal of wine is a curse from God - Jeremiah 48:33
• God is the source of wine - Hosea 2:9
• God promises hearts glad with wine as a part of rejoicing - Zechariah 10:7
• Wine Jesus referred to was clearly fermented - Matthew 9:17
• Jesus attaches no negative connotation to wine in his teaching - Matthew 21:33
• Jesus (not explicitly, but implicitly) seems to say that he is a direct contrast with John the Baptist, a rare teetotaler. Jesus was not a teetotaler, and was slandered as a drunk. Luke 7:33-35
• Jesus made wine - John 2
• Deacons are not be addicted/given to wine - Assumption that it would be used - 1 Timothy 3:8

Micah,

I have dealt with these passages and many others in a very lengthy document on our church website. Feel free to visit it and read carefully the document. www.fbctroy.org//“The Christian and Alcohol”.