Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

I am a complete abstainer personally, but I do find one quote interesting in the article. They call it an “American Oddity”. I would probably loop Canada into that as well. As someone who travels extensively throughout the world, I do agree this is something you only see in America, and historically you just don’t see at all.

[dgszweda]

I am a complete abstainer personally, but I do find one quote interesting in the article. They call it an “American Oddity”. I would probably loop Canada into that as well. As someone who travels extensively throughout the world, I do agree this is something you only see in America, and historically you just don’t see at all.

What are you seeing in your travels. Total abstinence or general acceptance of moderate drinking?

Best quote in the article:
“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). There is no industry in America that causes as much sorrow and heartache. You don’t have to look like the world. You don’t have to ride as close to the edge as you possibly can without falling off.”
-Dr. Paige Patterson, president, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

And, as Judge Pressler has said:
The upcoming generations need to know the havoc brought on our society and upon individuals by the use of alcohol. If we use it ourselves, we recommend its use to others. A Christian should not exercise his freedom to put himself and others at such a risk.” -Judge Paul Pressler, Houston, TX.

And don’t assume “wine” is synonymous with “alcohol” in the Bible. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t.
David R. Brumbelow

And don’t assume “wine” is synonymous with “alcohol” in the Bible. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t.

I don’t think you should keep saying that. Impressionable people may start to believe it.

The church is maturing and realizing that wine-drinking is a tertiary issue - not central to the gospel!

It’s out there in the “opinion” ring

If readers haven’t seen the Ken Burns Prohibition (miniseries) …

• I finally figured out Netflix and my wife and watched this last week and weekend
• Explains how the temperance movement merged with the American Christian church (mainly Methodists & Baptists)
• And explains how the mission of the church was diverted to the prohibition movement

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[dgszweda]

I am a complete abstainer personally, but I do find one quote interesting in the article. They call it an “American Oddity”. I would probably loop Canada into that as well. As someone who travels extensively throughout the world, I do agree this is something you only see in America, and historically you just don’t see at all.

Dave,

What are you seeing in your travels. Total abstinence or general acceptance of moderate drinking?

Just to put this into reference, most have been in Europe, but also elsewhere. For example, I have been to Amsterdam more than 150 times and many of my good friends are not individuals living in America. I have spent a large amount of time in social situations, familiar with their cultures and spent time with many peoples families in their homes and on vacations. I would say out of all of my travels, I would be hard pressed to see this concept of “total abstinence” outside of the US and Canada. Even among Christians, unless you are talking about missionaries that are linked to mission boards which either require abstinence or are from a denomination that emphasizes it. I am definitely one of the outsiders, in terms of alcohol amongst my friends. When I worked in Brussels, people would drink a bit of alcohol during their breaks sometimes (on company premises and company provided) and they would sometimes serve alcohol in the cafeteria. Almost always in the settings I was in, individuals drank with a great deal of moderation, although there are the soccer bars where it just gets out of hand, but that is primarily with the younger generation. There is abuse though, just like everywhere else. The bar or pub was as much about social interaction than it was about drinking. I have been in thousands of bars across Europe and I can say that I have enjoyed my time in almost all of them, just having fun and interacting socially with my friends and acquaintances, even though I never drank once. People knew my stance and they respected it. But this is basically what you did when you wanted to get together. Meet up at such and such a bar. The bars weren’t seedy and you went their just as much for the ambiance. I have been in bars that have been in the same building and same family for more than 400 years. I can tell you that in some situations, you have to walk a fine line in terms of offense. I can tell you that in some parts of France (and other places) that the host puts a lot of time and energy in picking out the right wine for a meal and it is considered a pretty bad offense to your host to refuse it. The concept of not drinking on moral grounds is totally foreign and does little to gloss over the fact that you essentially “slapped your host in the face”. Complementing the host on the quality of wine that he picked and how well it complemented the meal that was cooked, can be just as important as complementing them on the meal that they provided.

Each person has to make their own choice. I personally choose to abstain, but don’t put that burden on others. With that said, the focus on alcohol that we have seems to be stuck in an American bubble.

[dgszweda]

… With that said, the focus on alcohol that we have seems to be stuck in an American bubble.

Explains why fundamental missions struggles in Europe … because we press them on a point that meaningless to them! (See the tertiary point above)

Two of the best things for American Christianity is a renewed focus (in some circles) on:

1) Historical Christianity - millions of believers have served God without obsessing about KJV/alcohol/music/etc.

2) Global Christianity - our culture is just one of many, our applications of Scripture are often culturally-bound.

Outside of the restrictive paradigm, of 19th and 20th century American Christianity, we find that we are just one of many cultures and peoples that have embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are seeking to advance His Kingdom. There is much less room for arrogant dogmatism over tertiary issues (thanks, Jim). American fundamentalism (and other branches) have very vocal emphases on issues that the rest of the world doesn’t care about and never has.

[Jim]

The church is maturing and realizing that wine-drinking is a tertiary issue - not central to the gospel!

It’s out there in the “opinion” ring

I would say that it probably lies closer to the Convictions Ring. The problem with Alcohol drinking (compared to KJV, pants on women, padeobaptism…), is that it has the potential of physical abuse. We also know that some people may be more susceptible to certain type of issues (i.e. some people abuse alcohol or painkillers, and some don’t). I think we need to be careful with those people who may have a conviction around alcohol, but we should not force that conviction. I personally don’t drink alcohol because 1)I don’t like the taste of it, 2)abuse has been prevalent in my family and has resulted in deaths, 3)I don’t want others to stumble, and 4) I just don’t see any value in it personally for me that outweighs my personal concerns. With that said, I fully appreciate those of my friends and acquaintances that don’t drink. It shows that they respect me. But if they do want to drink it doesn’t bother me (it could for others). I would say that I only 2-3 friends in the US that may drink, but all of my friends outside of the US do drink.

If I read the post correctly, general acceptance.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[dgszweda]

I am a complete abstainer personally, but I do find one quote interesting in the article. They call it an “American Oddity”. I would probably loop Canada into that as well. As someone who travels extensively throughout the world, I do agree this is something you only see in America, and historically you just don’t see at all.

Dave,

What are you seeing in your travels. Total abstinence or general acceptance of moderate drinking?

[Jim]

The church is maturing and realizing that wine-drinking is a tertiary issue - not central to the gospel!

It’s out there in the “opinion” ring

Nonsense. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that intoxicating beverage (wine and other forms of alcohol) is in a category of its own. Drinking alcoholic beverage for any reason—good, bad, or indifferent—is NEVER the same as drinking non-intoxicating beverages.

[dgszweda]

I am a complete abstainer personally, but I do find one quote interesting in the article. They call it an “American Oddity”. I would probably loop Canada into that as well. As someone who travels extensively throughout the world, I do agree this is something you only see in America, and historically you just don’t see at all.

Having lived overseas for over 12 years I would say it depends on where you are. In France it seemed that the majority of Christians either drink wine or do not see it as an issue (even in independent Baptist churches unless an American missionary had made it an issue). Table wine at meals is common. Wine, cheese, and bread are enjoyed by many. The last church we helped plant near Paris in 2007-8 would have wine on the table for church fellowship meals. Wine is seen as one of God’s gifts (along with sex and food) which should be enjoyed and can be abused. Americans might find it strange that French Christians drink wine. French Christians might find it strange that so many American Christians are obese.

When we lived in Romania we observed that for new Christians abstinence was practiced (along with no makeup for women) but that wine was commonly used at the Lord’s Supper (and tuica made from plums common in the villages. Pastors I knew in Romania did not drink wine but it did not seem a major issue (unless drunkenness).

I work as an alcohol and addiction therapist in the Philadelphia Prison System. I’ve seen the ravages of all kinds of addictions (opiates, alcohol, sex, money, etc.). The wrong use of these things does not determine the non-use of them in their place. For some people abstinence is the best path. For others God grants the liberty to enjoy his gifts and the corresponding responsibility. If someone believes they should abstain, they should. However, their abstinence should not presented as the only choice for others.

Steve Davis

Explains why …

dgszweda wrote:

… With that said, the focus on alcohol that we have seems to be stuck in an American bubble.

Explains why fundamental missions struggles in Europe … because we press them on a point that meaningless to them! (See the tertiary point above)
__________________

Information on Jim

“it does not follow, that a quality which attaches to an effect is transferable to the cause.” - David Hackett Fischer

[Lee]

[Jim]

The church is maturing and realizing that wine-drinking is a tertiary issue - not central to the gospel!

It’s out there in the “opinion” ring

Nonsense. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that intoxicating beverage (wine and other forms of alcohol) is in a category of its own. Drinking alcoholic beverage for any reason—good, bad, or indifferent—is NEVER the same as drinking non-intoxicating beverages.

Even water must be drunk in moderation, lest you become intoxicated.

Everything is moderation, just some items require a lower threshhold for that moderation. You can get drunk on water and also die over too much water.