“the current debate over masks is ... currently the most obvious reflection of our idolization of liberty.”

“Community post-Enlightenment serves me now, not the other way around. The all important ‘I.’ In a word, our much beloved individualism. Some of you probably have calendars, t-shirts, and coffee mugs touting individualism’s tenets that tell you that you have the right to be happy, achieve your dreams, define yourself however you want, and live your best life now, among other distillations of secularism’s priority of the individual.” - John Ellis

Discussion

Mark,

I don’t know anyone who thinks this is all about “my rights.” I also know very few who think this is nothing but a bad flu. However, a disease that, except for those at risk by old age or health, is not fatal to somewhere around 99.97% of healthy people doesn’t feel to most of us like an emergency we must address as if it were the black plague.

Everything in life is a risk vs. reward calculation. This is obviously true with something like smoking, that, in spite of good evidence, many people refuse to give up. But it is also true with something like automobiles. If you don’t own a car, stay away from streets and don’t ride in one, your chance of death by automobile is practically none. However, most of us deem the convenience worth the risk. When it comes to eating, common sense would tell me to eat more healthy food than I do. However, I enjoy what I eat. Do I always go for the highest-calorie, highest-fat and sugar content food I can? No, but when I want some, I eat it.

On a more voluntary note, I participate in the sport of hang gliding. Again, if you never hang glide, your chance of that sport killing you is practically none (although I guess one could come down on top of you). The same could be said for most activities deemed risky, like skydiving, which I’ve also tried, but not taken up as a sport. Some won’t judge the reward worth the risk, and some will. I have heard comments from both people who would like to try hang gliding, but can’t bring themselves to as well as those who would never do anything like that, and think I’m stupid for doing so. Common sense would say I don’t *need* to hang glide, and it would be right. But I enjoy it.

Our society has come to the point, where, because people don’t believe in life-after-death, death is something to be avoided at all costs. As a result, it’s now trendy, especially among the lecturing classes, to be as risk-averse as possible and to berate the rest of us who don’t see life their way. I mean, how could you NOT wear a mask when there might be some chance it will help (no matter how small)? I just don’t approach life that way, because it’s not living. When God’s time for me is up, I’ll die. If my destiny is to die of corona, nothing I do will stop it. Am I going to tempt fate by going to a “coronavirus party” where I try to get infected? Of course not, but that’s not the same risk level as not wearing a mask every minute of every day.

As I’ve already stated, I’ll wear a mask when I legally (or contractually, like at work) must and when it might help those who are at risk. Otherwise, I’d rather not. My choice. I also attend our church where we have only two regular attenders who do wear masks, and a few visitors who do so. Everyone else does not, including one Navy widow in her 80’s who is completely contemptuous of the idea of hunkering down at home. We do socially distance, ask those with symptoms or those in risky categories not to come, do not touch each other or have offering plates, disinfect the room after use, and we spread people out on the pews. Otherwise, we have decided not to live in fear. We do have one family who hasn’t come back yet. That’s their choice. We don’t berate them, or talk bad about them behind their backs, and we do make remote services available. However, most of our congregation has decided they’d rather be at the worship services, and though we don’t discourage it, most have chosen not to wear masks.

I’m sure after everything I’ve written, you’ll still think I’m foolish for how I’ve decided to approach this. That is also your choice. However, those of us who have chosen differently are tired of being lectured to by others, and the more we hear it, the less inclined we are to listen.

Dave Barnhart

You think the disease is not dangerous? Then why are 140,000 dead?

Try actually reading what I wrote. Someone with a higher degree than I have should be capable of that.

I didn’t say it wasn’t dangerous. I said, it’s not very dangerous to people outside of certain categories. The overall death rate in the U.S. is about 3.6% of known (and that’s important) cases. That means that without regard to heath or age or the actual number of cases, a person has a 96.4% chance of not dying from the disease. When you take out the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, the numbers go way down from there. Death rate of people aged 50-59 (my age group) is only 1.3% or just over 1/3 the full death rate. That means without accounting for health, my chance of surviving is approximately 98.7%. Considering comorbidities regardless of age, if one doesn’t have any preexisting conditions (and I don’t), the death rate is only 0.9%. Add in age to that, and the fact that we have no idea how many people have actually had this disease undiagnosed, and you will see why I believe my risk from this disease is low.

But then again, with specific exceptions, I also don’t get the flu vaccine, in spite of the fact there have been modern flu epidemics (I’m not counting 1918) that have also had a fairly large number of deaths. The 1957-58 and 1968 pandemics (see CDC) resulted in over 116,000 deaths and over 100,000 deaths in the U.S., with the population of the US being only 170 million and 200 million vs 330 million today. And those don’t count the yearly totals from whichever strain is prevalent. I have gotten the flu vaccine twice — once when I was traveling to Asia in February, and once while my wife was undergoing chemo and radiation and was particularly susceptible. In one case, it was reducing my own risk, and the other was out of love for someone else. Otherwise, I don’t bother, even though I have friends who get it religiously every year.

And anyway, I said I have evaluated the risks for myself. My wife also evaluates her own risks, as do you. You can choose to make a different decision than I have made, and we each will deal with our own consequences. If something happens to me, and I die from Covid, you can say “I told you so.”

Dave Barnhart

….we ought to come up with a list of masks that would be a lot of fun to wear. My contributions:

1. Darth Vader

2. Jason from Friday XIII movies

3. Phantom of the Opera

4. MAGA

….maybe get some ideas here, too. And another one.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

No need to insult. The summation of your multiple paragraph post, like I have time to read that much, is that in your opinion COVID isn’t dangerous enough for most to worry about.

I disagree.

[Mark_Smith]

No need to insult.

I apologize. It seemed to me you were misquoting what I said.

The summation of your multiple paragraph post, like I have time to read that much…

And that is the problem with most of the views and opinions on Covid. No one actually wants to read the actual numbers and statistics and try to decipher what that really means about the risks. The media says it’s dangerous, so it must be. QED.

You are of course, welcome to disagree. As I said earlier, it’s when I get lectured about my view being wrong (without much, if any supporting data) that I get my hackles up. I have no issues with those who choose to wear masks even in places I don’t think they need to (like when I see them wearing masks in their cars). I have issues when they try to modify my behavior to match theirs.

Dave Barnhart

[dcbii] On a more voluntary note, I participate in the sport of hang gliding.
I really wanted to go hang gliding last summer when we were in Switzerland, but it was sooo expensive for a short ride.

[AndyE]
dcbii wrote:On a more voluntary note, I participate in the sport of hang gliding.

I really wanted to go hang gliding last summer when we were in Switzerland, but it was sooo expensive for a short ride.

I can believe it. It’s like taking a tandem skydive or a ride in a biplane or WWII plane. Those are always expensive. I started back in 1996 on the dunes at Jockey’s Ridge, NC. That’s a perfect place to learn, because when you crash, you’re only 15-20 feet up, you crash in the sand, and you get up and brush yourself off. But it’s a very enjoyable sport. Like any such pasttime, the equipment is not cheap, but it’s worth it to me. And, it’s probably safer than facing mobs of people angry when you don’t wear a mask! :)

Dave Barnhart

[dcbii]

Quote:

The summation of your multiple paragraph post, like I have time to read that much…

And that is the problem with most of the views and opinions on Covid. No one actually wants to read the actual numbers and statistics and try to decipher what that really means about the risks. The media says it’s dangerous, so it must be. QED.

dcbii, Just because I’m not going to read your 12 paragraph post closely and analyze your argument line by line does not mean I have not read and studied the numbers. I have. Once again you felt the need to insult me.

I skimmed both your long responses to me. A decent summary of them is you think COVID is not dangerous for almost all people. I disagree.

It is simply obvious that wearing a mask helps you and others. Are they perfect? No. But do they help? Yes.

If you don’t want to wear one, fine. But stop acting like they strip you of your rights, or they are dangerous, or that COVID is not a significant disease.

**FYI I have a teenaged child at home with a potential risk to COVID. I am disappointed that my fellow Christians couldn’t give a darn about protecting her, instead, ranting about their rights and how the media has blown this all up. So, that is why we have not returned to attending physical church. Too many who don’t care about protecting others.

[Mark_Smith]

dcbii, Just because I’m not going to read your 12 paragraph post closely and analyze your argument line by line does not mean I have not read and studied the numbers. I have. Once again you felt the need to insult me.

I skimmed both your long responses to me. A decent summary of them is you think COVID is not dangerous for almost all people. I disagree.

It is simply obvious that wearing a mask helps you and others. Are they perfect? No. But do they help? Yes.

If you don’t want to wear one, fine. But stop acting like they strip you of your rights, or they are dangerous, or that COVID is not a significant disease.

**FYI I have a teenaged child at home with a potential risk to COVID. I am disappointed that my fellow Christians couldn’t give a darn about protecting her, instead, ranting about their rights and how the media has blown this all up. So, that is why we have not returned to attending physical church. Too many who don’t care about protecting others.

Mark,

You don’t have to read what I write at all if you don’t want to. I don’t even expect you to read this, since it will be too long. I just was pointing out that I’m not making the decision I’m making without any facts behind my thinking.

As to “almost all,” I guess it will depend on what percentage you are thinking. For myself, I think a 999/1000 chance of surviving is pretty good, and a risk I’m willing to take. Obviously, even if only 1 out of every 1000 people in the US died, that’s too many. However, although we should never consider any preventable death “acceptable,” we know that people die of things every day, many of them from things the rest of us do without thought. I strongly disagree that all things that can kill people should be made illegal in order to try to prevent something we all know is going to happen eventually anyway to mortal creatures. Again, a simple risk calculation.

I’m still not arguing that wearing one is “strip[ping me] of [my] rights,” nor have I done so. I’ve already said I wear one when required, and to help others. Beyond that, I can’t act as if every single person that is out and about is in the high risk category. Those in that category and those that care for them should take extra precautions, as you are doing, and if the risk is high enough, they shouldn’t be out at all, as even if everyone else wears a mask, that won’t prevent transmission. It can only reduce it, and thus those that might be high risk should be evaluating their own risk, and making a decision to stay home if they judge the risk too high, as you are doing in staying away from church. I’d do the same as you if I had a high-risk person at home. That’s only prudent. The point is that I don’t, and further, that high risk people can’t ask the entire world to stop for them. They need to take their own precautions. If I were in your position, no matter if everyone in the church wore masks, I wouldn’t take a high-risk child to church without her being vaccinated or herd immunity being reached by the community. But everyone on the planet wearing masks would give me no confidence that my child could come out safely, given we know even N95 masks are not 100% protection.

My whole argument includes the idea that covid is a significant disease (just one I’m not willing to treat like a population-ending plague), and I have NEVER made the claim that masks are dangerous. I just don’t believe the disease is as dangerous as our disaster-porn media are trying to get us to believe, that’s all. Numbers don’t lie (unless, of course, we have many more people dying than are being reported, or the major disease organizations are passing along false statistics, which I don’t believe). I’m taking my own risks based on those numbers.

One last time, this isn’t about “masks” per se. But if we take the view that we should stop doing anything that might EVER have any risk, we’ll do nothing at all, and at least in my view, that’s not living.

“Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.” - Helen Keller

Dave Barnhart

Let’s say the survival rate is 999/1000, which is your made-up number, but let’s use it. What is the hospitalization rate? What is the ICU rate? What is the three-weeks-in-the-hospital rate? What is the medical cost per person? What are the long-term health issues? This isn’t just “death.”

No need to answer because there is no point for you to. I just want you to consider more than death rates. This COVID is not a mere cold or flu.

[Mark_Smith]

Too many who don’t care about protecting others.

Oh, and one other thing. Though my wife and I wear masks as little as we can, she personally made over 500 of them (most of which she also bought and paid for the material) for local first responders, our local Christian rescue mission, and family members/relatives who wanted them. That says nothing at all about me, but it does mean that not all people willing to risk themselves don’t care at all about protecting others who need it.

Dave Barnhart

[Mark_Smith]

Let’s say the survival rate is 999/1000, which is your made-up number, but let’s use it. What is the hospitalization rate? What is the ICU rate? What is the three-weeks-in-the-hospital rate? What is the medical cost per person? What are the long-term health issues? This isn’t just “death.”

No need to answer because there is no point for you to. I just want you to consider more than death rates. This COVID is not a mere cold or flu.

Well, the number isn’t completely made up, but I would agree it’s just an estimation, for which I used facts I’ve gleaned from CDC and elsewhere, which I posted above. For healthy people, the overall survival rate is 99.1 %, or 991/1000. Then factor in the effect of age, and the fact that we don’t know the total infection rate, and 999/1000 is not too far off for a usable guess.

But you are correct — there are more factors involved. However, not a single one of them convinces me that the biblical position requires me to wear a mask or that I am sinning when I don’t, at least as long as I’m following civil law and the biblical admonishments to care for those who need protection.

Dave Barnhart