We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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Moses, in Deuteronomy 9:6-21, provides a pretty definitive take on the nature of the rebellion at Sinai. Music is not mentioned. Idolatry via the calf is.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]It does not matter that music is not mentioned in Deut. 9. It is a well-known fact that the Spirit provides differing information in differing passages when there are multiple parallel passages of an account. It is especially noteworthy that many of the details from Exodus 32 are not mentioned in Deut. 9, especially their offering sacrifices to the calf and eating them.Moses, in Deuteronomy 9:6-21, provides a pretty definitive take on the nature of the rebellion at Sinai. Music is not mentioned. Idolatry via the calf is.
The NT definitively tells us not to be idolaters as they were when they ate and drank what was offered to the idol and rose up to play (1 Cor. 10:7). The NT, therefore, highlights for the special attention of believers what is completely unmentioned in Deut. 9.
The NT is the final word for what is especially authoritative for believers to know and to follow. The Spirit wants us to focus on their consuming what was sacrificed to the idol and their subsequent idolatrous playing.
[RajeshG]The NT is the final word for what is especially authoritative for believers to know and to follow. The Spirit wants us to focus on their consuming what was sacrificed to the idol and their subsequent idolatrous playing.
What do you mean by ‘especially authoritative’? Are the writings of Moses not as authoritative as those of Paul? I don’t want to misrepresent what you’re saying here, so I’d appreciate some clarification.
[pvawter]The Spirit inspired at least 5 Scripture writers to write about the GCI: Moses (Ex. 32; Deut 9); Nehemiah; (Neh. 9) the writer of Ps. 106; Luke (Acts 7) and Paul (1 Cor. 10:7). Had the Spirit revealed to us everything that he wanted us to know about the GCI and its relevance for us through Moses, He would not have inspired any other Scripture writers to write more about it. Because He inspired Paul to have the final words about it to God’s people and Paul wrote about it in a NT epistle and because Paul used an imperative specifically directed to Christians, 1 Cor. 10:7 has special weight for us in directing us about what we are especially to pay attention to concerning the GCI.What do you mean by ‘especially authoritative’? Are the writings of Moses not as authoritative as those of Paul? I don’t want to misrepresent what you’re saying here, so I’d appreciate some clarification.
Rajesh wrote:
It does not matter that music is not mentioned in Deut. 9.
I see …
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Regarding the notion that it is insignificant whether the issues of music are addressed in Deuteronomy 9:6-21, the hermeneutical principle of repetition comes to mind. That is, if you are going to draw significant conclusions from the Scripture, you generally want to have similar things said in multiple places. That’s one reason why, for example, we don’t draw too many conclusions directly from 1 Tim. 2:15.
In this case, regarding Exodus 32, we neither have the principle of repetition honored, nor for that matter do we have anything clearly said about music. We might guess that they were doing the Macarena or the Achy Breaky Heart Dance au naturel, having been shown the steps by Aaron or his sons, (ewww…) but really we cannot say anything with specificity except they danced naked. We might with equal authority say that it sounded like Billy Ray or the elevated hymns of this church.
And that leads to a second principle of hermeneutics and exegesis that seems to be being missed; specificity. We can, perhaps say that there might have been something objectionable about the music style, but absent specificity, what would we do with that knowledge? It is as if I was told “there is an accident somewhere on I-80”. Well, yes, but that highway runs from Teaneck, New Jersey to San Francisco, California. Maybe see if we can be a little more specific there?
And in this case, we (again) have no idea what the specifics of the music were, other than that one person, perhaps mistakenly, said it sounded like war. Since that can include the BJU orchestra playing the 1812 Overture and the like, or perhaps just a choir singing badly, and it’s not repeated, all we can say for sure is that it probably was (smile) “elevated hymns” or “Achy Breaky Heart”.
And that leads to principle #3 that seems to be neglected by our favorite Bomber; the principle “the obvious explains the obscure.” If we’ve got fairly clear passages like Psalms 149 and 150 indicating a wide range of instruments and commanded expressions of praise like dancing, we proceed from that and process Exodus 32 in light of that.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[RajeshG]The Spirit inspired at least 5 Scripture writers to write about the GCI: Moses (Ex. 32; Deut 9); Nehemiah; (Neh. 9) the writer of Ps. 106; Luke (Acts 7) and Paul (1 Cor. 10:7). Had the Spirit revealed to us everything that he wanted us to know about the GCI and its relevance for us through Moses, He would not have inspired any other Scripture writers to write more about it. Because He inspired Paul to have the final words about it to God’s people and Paul wrote about it in a NT epistle and because Paul used an imperative specifically directed to Christians, 1 Cor. 10:7 has special weight for us in directing us about what we are especially to pay attention to concerning the GCI.
So are we to treat the Bible like a systematic theology, or do we allow the writers to speak for themselves? Each of the writers you mentioned has a specific purpose in mind, and we do them a disservice when we read Moses and conclude that his meaning is obscure without appealing to Nehemiah, the writer of Psalm 106, Luke, and Paul.
The way I see it, your desire to commitment to NT priority causes you to run roughshod over the OT writers. Paul is not adding new information to the Exodus account, he is explaining its significance to the Corinthian situation. I don’t think he would characterize his words in 1 Cor. 10 as “the final words” as though Moses’ account was incomplete.
If we’ve got fairly clear passages like Psalms 149 and 150 indicating a wide range of instruments and commanded expressions of praise like dancing, we proceed from that and process Exodus 32 in light of that.
Something I was thinking about last night is that if “godly” music is joyful (I believe this is one of Rajesh’s ideas), then how on earth do we process the books of Lamentations, Ecclesiastes and massive sections of the Psalms? If San Francisco (to pick on a random city), were hit by a nuke, would God be pleased with repentance and mourning and that kind of dirge-like worship that we would rightfully be able to offer? Was all the worship in NYC rejected out of hand the Sunday after 9/11 (or even that same night)?
Worship is more than just plastering on happy faces and singing upbeat songs. How do we know if we’re actually pleasing God or not if we can’t do what Rajesh teaches because we’re all exegetical theory and no application?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[pvawter]False dichotomy.So are we to treat the Bible like a systematic theology, or do we allow the writers to speak for themselves?
[pvawter]I never said that Moses’ meaning is obscure …Each of the writers you mentioned has a specific purpose in mind, and we do them a disservice when we read Moses and conclude that his meaning is obscure without appealing to Nehemiah, the writer of Psalm 106, Luke, and Paul.
[pvawter]You have a mistaken view based on at least a misimpression of what I have said …The way I see it, your desire to commitment to NT priority causes you to run roughshod over the OT writers.
[pvawter]You are incorrectly implying that I said something that I did not say about 1 Cor. 10:7. What I actually said:Paul is not adding new information to the Exodus account, he is explaining its significance to the Corinthian situation. I don’t think he would characterize his words in 1 Cor. 10 as “the final words” as though Moses’ account was incomplete.
“Because He inspired Paul to have the final words about it to God’s people and Paul wrote about it in a NT epistle and because Paul used an imperative specifically directed to Christians, 1 Cor. 10:7 has special weight for us in directing us about what we are especially to pay attention to concerning the GCI.”
I did not say anything about Paul’s “adding new information.”
Paul did have the final words because he was the leader of the apostolic company whom God chose to be the only one who directly addressed revelation to NT believers to issue a command to them in an epistle. None of the other Scripture writers who wrote about the GCI have addressed commands specifically to NT believers.
[Jay]No, this is not “one of Rajesh’s ideas.” There are numerous places in Scripture where God declares that people are to worship Him with joy and rejoicing.If we’ve got fairly clear passages like Psalms 149 and 150 indicating a wide range of instruments and commanded expressions of praise like dancing, we proceed from that and process Exodus 32 in light of that.
Something I was thinking about last night is that if “godly” music is joyful (I believe this is one of Rajesh’s ideas), then how on earth do we process the books of Lamentations, Ecclesiastes and massive sections of the Psalms? If San Francisco (to pick on a random city), were hit by a nuke, would God be pleased with repentance and mourning and that kind of dirge-like worship that we would rightfully be able to offer? Was all the worship in NYC rejected out of hand the Sunday after 9/11 (or even that same night)?
Worship is more than just plastering on happy faces and singing upbeat songs. How do we know if we’re actually pleasing God or not if we can’t do what Rajesh teaches because we’re all exegetical theory and no application?
Furthermore, what I said was specific to this discussion concerning what was supposed to characterize a feast to the Lord. I did not say that godly music is always, only, etc. joyful.
In this thread, so far, I have provided the following evidence that the instrumental music of the GCI certainly was ungodly music:
(The number of > used is an attempt to weigh the relative strength of that factor)
1. The certainty that ungodly people who were not believers (the mixed multitude who were very familiar with the ungodly instrumental musics played in the idolatry in Egypt) participated in the idolatrous playing >>> ungodly music
2. Ungodly activity > ungodly music
3. Ungodly object > ungodly music
4. Hearts turned back to Egypt >> ungodly music
5. Partnering with demons/strong demonic influence >>> ungodly music
6. Rejoicing in the works of their hands >> ungodly music
7. Indistinct, uncertain war-like composite musical sound from a distance that did not meet God’s criteria for the use of music in worship >>> ungodly music
8. Not the distinctly recognizable (from a distance where no lyrics can be understood) composite musical sound of joy of a godly feast to the Lord >>> ungodly music
9. Ungodly dancing that elicited explosive anger from God’s Spirit-filled prophet >>> ungodly music
10. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control >>> ungodly music
11. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control in a way that the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of >>> ungodly music
That any believers can still hold that we cannot know that the music in the GCI was ungodly certainly seems to me to be a testimony that those believers intensely desire to cling to the notion that instrumental music itself cannot be ungodly in spite of their not being any Bible to support that view.
[RajeshG]That any believers can still hold that we cannot know that the music in the GCI was ungodly certainly seems to me to be a testimony that those believers intensely desire to cling to the notion that instrumental music itself cannot be ungodly in spite of their not being any Bible to support that view.
For me at least, the reasons I don’t buy your arguments are less sinister: I don’t accept your arguments because I don’t think you have made any worth accepting.
Your approach to this is simply to make dubious, unverifiable claims and then throw the burden of proof on the other side to prove you wrong. That approach is a big barrier to rationally discussing this. Your biases get in the way of thinking rationally. I suspect that is why you have not convinced anyone here of your position.
[GregH]It’s easy to make generic pronouncements that somebody is wrong when you do not have to give any evidence why they are wrong or actually engage specifically with any of their arguments. Using ad hominem, as you do here, instead of using any Bible to show why I am wrong, what my biases are, how my thinking is irrational, etc. is a tactic that does not meet the biblical criteria for the proper conduct of a Christian.For me at least, the reasons I don’t buy your arguments are less sinister: I don’t accept your arguments because I don’t think you have made any worth accepting.
Your approach to this is simply to make dubious, unverifiable claims and then throw the burden of proof on the other side to prove you wrong. That approach is a big barrier to rationally discussing this. Your biases get in the way of thinking rationally. I suspect that is why you have not convinced anyone here of your position.
It is telling that you rarely use any Bible to support what you say in your comments to me.
[RajeshG]It’s easy to make generic pronouncements that somebody is wrong when you do not have to give any evidence why they are wrong or actually engage specifically with any of their arguments. Using ad hominem, as you do here, instead of using any Bible to show why I am wrong, what my biases are, how my thinking is irrational, etc. is a tactic that does not meet the biblical criteria for the proper conduct of a Christian.
It is telling that you rarely use any Bible to support what you say in your comments to me.
1) Refresh yourself on the definition of ad hominem.
2) It is better to not use the Bible than misuse the Bible.
[GregH]Here are your earlier comments:1) Refresh yourself on the definition of ad hominem.
[GregH]I am going to leave this right there because I do not want this to degenerate further.For me at least, the reasons I don’t buy your arguments are less sinister: I don’t accept your arguments because I don’t think you have made any worth accepting.
Your approach to this is simply to make dubious, unverifiable claims and then throw the burden of proof on the other side to prove you wrong. That approach is a big barrier to rationally discussing this. Your biases get in the way of thinking rationally. I suspect that is why you have not convinced anyone here of your position.
[GregH]2) It is better to not use the Bible than misuse the Bible.
Since you are either unable or unwilling or both to support biblically your assessments of my supposedly flawed biblical argumentation and positions, there isn’t anything more for us to talk about.
We can glean some important lessons from the golden calf incident (GCI) regardless of our different views of how it applies to a specific music style. One of the largest CCM festivals used to take place a few miles from our home out in a farm field. A couple of years ago we attended. One of the men who was instrumental in organizing the event got up on stage and introduced the next performer. He spoke in glowing terms about him and then asked the crowd if we would give our all for this performer. Sadly nearly everyone yelled yes and raised their hands in praise. I yelled as loud as could, “NO, I WILL ONLY GIVE MY ALL FOR CHRIST.” Hardly anyone heard what I said because of the roar of idolatry drowning out my words. The performer then got on stage. The stage elevated about 30 feet in the air as a huge screen behind him showed a picture of him holding out his arms and accepting the worship from the crowd. I was overwhelmed with feelings of anger and sadness as I watched professing believers at a concert that was promoted as glorifying Christ- worshipping a man. We left. Thankfully the Lifelight festival is no longer held there. Both the promoters and the attenders had confused worship of God with idolatry. That can happen with any music style. I would have been just as angry if the singer had been performing Frank Garlock style music and accepting worship from the crowd.
It is telling that no one is even attempting to provide any viable explanation for how and why these people in the GCI were naked and dancing shamefully and wildly out-of-control supposedly to the godly worship music of Israel.
[RajeshG]It is telling that no one is even attempting to provide any viable explanation for how and why these people in the GCI were naked and dancing shamefully and wildly out-of-control supposedly to the godly worship music of Israel.
What’s it telling?
[RajeshG]In this thread, so far, I have provided the following evidence that the instrumental music of the GCI certainly was ungodly music:
(The number of > used is an attempt to weigh the relative strength of that factor)
1. The certainty that ungodly people who were not believers (the mixed multitude who were very familiar with the ungodly instrumental musics played in the idolatry in Egypt) participated in the idolatrous playing >>> ungodly music
2. Ungodly activity > ungodly music
3. Ungodly object > ungodly music
4. Hearts turned back to Egypt >> ungodly music
5. Partnering with demons/strong demonic influence >>> ungodly music
6. Rejoicing in the works of their hands >> ungodly music
7. Indistinct, uncertain war-like composite musical sound from a distance that did not meet God’s criteria for the use of music in worship >>> ungodly music
8. Not the distinctly recognizable (from a distance where no lyrics can be understood) composite musical sound of joy of a godly feast to the Lord >>> ungodly music
9. Ungodly dancing that elicited explosive anger from God’s Spirit-filled prophet >>> ungodly music
10. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control >>> ungodly music
11. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control in a way that the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of >>> ungodly music
That any believers can still hold that we cannot know that the music in the GCI was ungodly certainly seems to me to be a testimony that those believers intensely desire to cling to the notion that instrumental music itself cannot be ungodly in spite of their not being any Bible to support that view.
Rajesh, unless “>>>” is some sort of magic, none of these hold water.
1. The certainty that ungodly people who were not believers (the mixed multitude who were very familiar with the ungodly instrumental musics played in the idolatry in Egypt) participated in the idolatrous playing >>> ungodly music
Consider Exodus 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.
The “tambourine” is “toph” in Hebrew. It was named after the Egyptian god Typhon it was used to influence. In addition to Miriam’s dance, it was also used by David in 2 Samuel 6, which brings up:
10. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control >>> ungodly music
11. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control in a way that the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of >>> ungodly music
There, David was [partially?] naked and dancing. Michal called it shameful and she was punished for her judgment.
Rajesh, I know you have put a lot of work into this, but the Word simply doesn’t say what you wish it did.
[Dan Miller]Partnering with demons is evil supernatural influence, but I’m sure you already understand that. None of these hold water, Dan, because Scripture speaks often to us about godly Israelites whose hearts were devoted to God and who danced naked in shameful ways in godly feasts to the Lord where we know godly music was used, right?RajeshG wrote:
In this thread, so far, I have provided the following evidence that the instrumental music of the GCI certainly was ungodly music:
(The number of > used is an attempt to weigh the relative strength of that factor)
1. The certainty that ungodly people who were not believers (the mixed multitude who were very familiar with the ungodly instrumental musics played in the idolatry in Egypt) participated in the idolatrous playing >>> ungodly music
2. Ungodly activity > ungodly music
3. Ungodly object > ungodly music
4. Hearts turned back to Egypt >> ungodly music
5. Partnering with demons/strong demonic influence >>> ungodly music
6. Rejoicing in the works of their hands >> ungodly music
7. Indistinct, uncertain war-like composite musical sound from a distance that did not meet God’s criteria for the use of music in worship >>> ungodly music
8. Not the distinctly recognizable (from a distance where no lyrics can be understood) composite musical sound of joy of a godly feast to the Lord >>> ungodly music
9. Ungodly dancing that elicited explosive anger from God’s Spirit-filled prophet >>> ungodly music
10. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control >>> ungodly music
11. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control in a way that the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of >>> ungodly music
That any believers can still hold that we cannot know that the music in the GCI was ungodly certainly seems to me to be a testimony that those believers intensely desire to cling to the notion that instrumental music itself cannot be ungodly in spite of their not being any Bible to support that view.
Rajesh, unless “>>>” is some sort of magic, none of these hold water.
[Dan Miller]So what if the people were dancing in Exodus 15? They were not naked, they were not under demonic influence, they were not dancing in ungodly ways, and they were not using the same music.1. The certainty that ungodly people who were not believers (the mixed multitude who were very familiar with the ungodly instrumental musics played in the idolatry in Egypt) participated in the idolatrous playing >>> ungodly music
Consider Exodus 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.
The “tambourine” is “toph” in Hebrew. It was named after the Egyptian god Typhon it was used to influence. In addition to Miriam’s dance, it was also used by David in 2 Samuel 6, which brings up:
Moreover, Moses, God’s Spirit-filled prophet was leading the worship in Exodus 15. Had that been ungodly worship in any way, he would have immediately stopped what was taking place. Not only did he not stop it, he participated in the worship that took place prior to this dancing. Had what Miriam and those women did in their worship been displeasing to God, God would have judged them fiercely, but He did not do so because there was not anything ungodly about their worship in Exodus 15.
Regardless of whether or not that instrument was used that way, which there is no evidence in the Bible for it being used that way, asserting that the godly Israelites were using it to bring about any demonic influence in Exodus 15 has zero Bible to support it and the lack of divine judgment refutes your even suggesting that it was used that way on that occasion. There is not anything comparable in Exodus 15 to eating in a worship context what has been sacrificed to an idol (and the resulting partnering with demons) and the idolatrous playing that Scripture explicitly says took place in the GCI.
[Dan Miller]No, David was not at all dancing naked, and he was not dancing in a wildly out-of-control way. Asserting that godly David was dancing in the same way as these demon-controlled people were does not have any biblical warrant.10. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control >>> ungodly music
11. Dancing naked and/or wildly out-of-control in a way that the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of >>> ungodly music
There, David was [partially?] naked and dancing. Michal called it shameful and she was punished for her judgment.
Michal’s calling it shameful is not at all the same thing as the inspired writer of Scripture saying that what the people in Exodus 32 were doing was wildly out-of-control to their shame among their enemies.
Scripture merely records Michal’s assessment; it does not in any way say that her assessment was a valid one. We know that Moses’ statement inspired by God was a true statement of the nature of what was taking place in the GCI.
[Dan Miller]What is your source for this information about the Hebrew word “toph”?Consider Exodus 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.
The “tambourine” is “toph” in Hebrew. It was named after the Egyptian god Typhon it was used to influence. In addition to Miriam’s dance, it was also used by David in 2 Samuel 6, which brings up:
Both Job (Job 21:12) and Laban (Gen. 31:27) were familiar with this instrument so establishing that it was named after that Egyptian deity to be used for that purpose is a claim that needs to be critically scrutinized for its validity.
Moreover, even if that claim is true and that was its use by some ungodly pagans for that ungodly purpose, godly prophets who were prophesying (“speaking for God”) as they were coming down from the hill of God were using this instrument to produce godly music (1 Sam. 10:5) before the time of its use in 2 Sam. 6:5 so we know that using this instrument was already approved by God prior to that time.
Furthermore, God commands it use several times in Scripture (Ps. 81:2: 149:3; 150:4), which further shows that any ungodly uses of the instrument that may have existed in pagan usage do not establish that it was used in any ungodly manner for producing any ungodly music in either Exod. 15 or 2 Sam. 6:5.
In fact, Ps. 81:2 compared with Ps. 81:3-5 may (there is some question whether 81:4-5 applies only to 81:3 but 81:1-2 was given later when that Psalm was written) even establish that its use was commanded by God prior to their coming out of Egypt.
Finally, it is vital to notice that Exod. 15:20 says that Miriam was a prophetess, which means that she was a God-appointed spokesperson who had the Spirit upon her. Claiming that she was doing something ungodly by using that instrument in those dances would mean that a key God-appointed leader was flagrantly sinning against God, which would certainly have brought God’s intense judgment upon her and those women had they been doing anything ungodly at that time.
Saying that the same instrument was used by God’s people at various times does not establish that it was used by them in the same musical ways that it was played by any pagans who may have used it for ungodly purposes.
In conclusion, your bringing up that instrument and its use in Exodus 15 and in 2 Sam. 6:5 does not in any way establish anything about the music or the dancing in the GCI being godly.
[RajeshG]So where exactly does the text inform us that God had previously ordained and scheduled it? I’m not seeing in the text where God specifically ordains this particular feast..Barring any evidence to the contrary, of which there is none, the text informs us that Aaron merely declared that on the next day there was supposed to be a feast to the Lord (which God had previously ordained and scheduled to take place on that next day).
I have not claimed that what actually happened on that day actually turned out to be observed as a God-appointed feast. When these wicked people rose up in the morning to offer sacrifices to the idol and then consumed them in a worship context, they were already partnering with demons so there is no basis for saying that anything else in that perverted religious feast was what it normally would have been.So in your view, when exactly does the observance change from what God wanted to what it became? The change had to start before the idol was even made, right? The fact that the people were asked to donate earrings was not part of a God-ordained feast. When Aaron fashioned the idol, that was not part of a God-ordained feast. In fact, you have specifically said that Aaron himself was not demonically influenced. Therefore, he was completely under his own control when he fashioned the idol. According to 1 Cor 10, one doesn’t become in fellowship with demons until they eat of what is sacrificed to an idol, so the initial offering of sacrifices to the idol were done by people who were not yet under demonic influence.
If your position were correct that Aaron on his own authority instituted his own national feast to the Lord, he was sinning immensely by not only making the idol but also originating a worship feast that was not God-ordained.Yes. He also compounded his sin later when he lied to Moses by saying that the gold was thrown into the fire and the idol just came out.
In that case, you would have us to believe that these wicked people who have already sinned by making an idol and worshiping it in a feast of their own origination still for some inexplicable reason chose to use only godly worship music in their perversion.I’ve consistently said that we don’t know what music was used. The text doesn’t say. You would have us believe that Aaron called a national feast that was pre-ordained by God for a nation of 1 million people, and 3000 of the mixed multitude somehow kept the other 997 thousand from using normal Israelite worship music during a national feast.
Moreover, these same wicked people who were only using godly instrumental music were naked and wildly dancing-out-of control in non-Israelite ways in worship of the idol. Explain why they were naked and wildly, shamefully dancing out-of-control when their whole intent was to use godly forms in a feast to the Lord. Explain how and why they were naked and dancing shamefully out-of-control to godly Israelite worship music.I’ve never said that “their whole intent was to use godly forms in a feast to the Lord.” Personally, I don’t think Aaron ever intended it to be a feast “to the Lord” in the first place. He intended to worship an idol, so he was going to use some sort of worship music for that, but the text doesn’t say what form that music took, other than singing. We can’t even say for certain that instruments were used, though it would be a likely guess. The text just isn’t clear about the form.
So let’s examine what “naked” means in the text by comparing it to another text. 2 Chronicles 28:19 says “For the LORD brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the LORD.” Ahaz made Judah naked, but this doesn’t mean he made the entire nation take off their clothes. The NIV translates the phrase as “for he had promoted wickedness in Judah.” The ESV says ” for he had made Judah act sinfully.” So when Exodus 32:25 talks about Aaron making the people naked, it’s not saying that they had taken all their clothes off. It’s saying that Aaron had led them into sin. The specific sin, as we know from 1 Cor 10, is idolatry. For a nation that was supposed to be proclaiming the ONE TRUE GOD to all the surrounding nations, an incident of blatant idolatry would be a shame that would last for years and years. This sinfulness and shame would exist whether or not any particular style of music was used. In my view, using their normal worship music to worship an idol would be even more shameful than using Egyptian music.
[Kevin Miller]I have never said that it is in Exod. 32. As I have already said previously, Moses and Aaron told Pharaoh prior to the Exodus that they had to go to celebrate a feast to the Lord. In the flow of the narrative, Exod. 32 is the only feast that takes place after they have left Egypt. Furthermore, I provided you evidence that God established feasts prior to Ex. 32. I have no more information beyond that so there is not anything more to discuss about this.So where exactly does the text inform us that God had previously ordained and scheduled it? I’m not seeing in the text where God specifically ordains this particular feast..
[Kevin Miller]No, 1 Cor. 10 says that the things that the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons. Contact with demons already is established when the sacrifices take place. Only a few people, however, actually do the sacrificing. Presumably, for those who do not play a role in offering the sacrifices, partnering with demons takes place when they eat what was sacrificed.So in your view, when exactly does the observance change from what God wanted to what it became? The change had to start before the idol was even made, right? The fact that the people were asked to donate earrings was not part of a God-ordained feast. When Aaron fashioned the idol, that was not part of a God-ordained feast. In fact, you have specifically said that Aaron himself was not demonically influenced. Therefore, he was completely under his own control when he fashioned the idol. According to 1 Cor 10, one doesn’t become in fellowship with demons until they eat of what is sacrificed to an idol, so the initial offering of sacrifices to the idol were done by people who were not yet under demonic influence.
[Kevin Miller]I have never bought your claim that the whole nation participated in the idolatrous worship that took place. The next day was supposed to have been a feast to the Lord, but that never transpired because of the sinfulness of Aaron and those people who participated in the making of the calf, etc.I’ve consistently said that we don’t know what music was used. The text doesn’t say. You would have us believe that Aaron called a national feast that was pre-ordained by God for a nation of 1 million people, and 3000 of the mixed multitude somehow kept the other 997 thousand from using normal Israelite worship music during a national feast.
I find evidence that the sons of Levi did not participate in the idolatry because they came out to Moses when he asked who is on the Lord’s side. In any case, everyone who offered those sacrifices and/or ate of them came into fellowship with demons. We know that 3000 people participated; if there were others, we do not know how many others there were.
[Kevin Miller]The text says that he said that tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.I’ve never said that “their whole intent was to use godly forms in a feast to the Lord.” Personally, I don’t think Aaron ever intended it to be a feast “to the Lord” in the first place. He intended to worship an idol, so he was going to use some sort of worship music for that, but the text doesn’t say what form that music took, other than singing. We can’t even say for certain that instruments were used, though it would be a likely guess. The text just isn’t clear about the form.
[Kevin Miller]Not a single Bible translator who knows Hebrew very well renders that word in Exod. 32 the way that you claim it means. Just because it means something in another context does not mean that it has the same meaning everywhere. No, 1 Corinthians 10 establishes that the idolatry included their eating and drinking what was offered to the idol and their playing. Whatever their playing was, it was part of their idolatry.So let’s examine what “naked” means in the text by comparing it to another text. 2 Chronicles 28:19 says “For the LORD brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the LORD.” Ahaz made Judah naked, but this doesn’t mean he made the entire nation take off their clothes. The NIV translates the phrase as “for he had promoted wickedness in Judah.” The ESV says ” for he had made Judah act sinfully.” So when Exodus 32:25 talks about Aaron making the people naked, it’s not saying that they had taken all their clothes off. It’s saying that Aaron had led them into sin. The specific sin, as we know from 1 Cor 10, is idolatry. For a nation that was supposed to be proclaiming the ONE TRUE GOD to all the surrounding nations, an incident of blatant idolatry would be a shame that would last for years and years. This sinfulness and shame would exist whether or not any particular style of music was used. In my view, using their normal worship music to worship an idol would be even more shameful than using Egyptian music.
No, you are missing the point about the shamefulness. Moses specifically says that Aaron made them naked to their shame among their enemies. Unbelieving enemies are not going to be ashamed that Israel became like them. There was something about the perversity of what was taking place that even unbelievers were ashamed of what was happening.
[Kevin Miller]You have not provided any evidence from Scripture that supports this view. Music that is itself godly apart from any lyrics is something that demons hate and would not want played when they are controlling those who produce the music.
In my view, using their normal worship music to worship an idol would be even more shameful than using Egyptian music.
[Kevin Miller]According to your view, all the people participated in the idolatry by giving their earrings to make the calf. All of them, therefore, turned from God and in their hearts went back again to Egypt (Acts 7:39).Personally, I don’t think Aaron ever intended it to be a feast “to the Lord” in the first place. He intended to worship an idol … [emphasis added to original]
Since all the people did this and Aaron consented to go along with them and there was no previously ordained feast to the Lord that was to take place the next day (according to your view), what possible reason did Aaron have in the first place for determining that tomorrow there would be a feast to the Lord?
All the people had turned away from the Lord so Aaron’s supposedly declaring completely on his own initiative that they would have a feast to the Lord makes no sense. Instead, he should have said something like, “Tomorrow, there is a feast to the gods that brought us out of Egypt.”
There is no basis for the people to have wanted to celebrate a feast to the Lord when they all have already rejected Him. Aaron would have known that they had no desire to celebrate a feast to Him. Why did Aaron, then, say that they would celebrate a feast to the Lord on the next day?
Moreover, since there was no divinely determined feast to the Lord scheduled in advance to take place on the next day (in your view), what they did on that day was not in any way directed to the Lord: they did not offer sacrifices to Him, play music to Him, sing to Him, dance to Him, etc. What took place the next day was completely a pagan religious feast celebrating the gods that they believed had brought them out of Egypt.
Why, then, would they have chosen to use instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that they knew were pleasing to God when they knew and could have used instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that they knew would be pleasing to their gods that the idol represented?
Using the godly Israelite styles would be offensive to their deities in whom they believed, trusted, and whom they worshiped, would they not?
Beyond all this, there is an even more basic question that must be answered: why did Aaron ordain that there would be even any kind of feast on the next day? What would his purpose(s) have been for having a feast of his own devising on the next day, given that there was no predetermined feast that was supposed to take place on that day?
RajeshG wrote:
It is telling that no one is even attempting to provide any viable explanation for how and why these people in the GCI were naked and dancing shamefully and wildly out-of-control supposedly to the godly worship music of Israel.
Although we are not told what kind of music was used, the scripture does actually give some indication “how” such a thing could happen.
Ex 32:4 And he took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it into a molten calf; and they said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
5 Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”
6 So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
(NASB)
Aaron was calling it a feast to the Lord when it was clearly idolatry. It is possible to use practices that would otherwise be acceptable to God as part of pagan worship. Consider,
Am 5:21 “I hate, I reject your festivals, Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.
(NASB)Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them.
15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil,
(NASB)
[JD Miller]1. You say, “It is possible to use practices that would otherwise be acceptable to God as part of pagan worship.”RajeshG wrote:
It is telling that no one is even attempting to provide any viable explanation for how and why these people in the GCI were naked and dancing shamefully and wildly out-of-control supposedly to the godly worship music of Israel.
Although we are not told what kind of music was used, the scripture does actually give some indication “how” such a thing could happen.
Ex 32:4 And he took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it into a molten calf; and they said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
5 Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”
6 So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
(NASB)Aaron was calling it a feast to the Lord when it was clearly idolatry. It is possible to use practices that would otherwise be acceptable to God as part of pagan worship. Consider,
Am 5:21 “I hate, I reject your festivals, Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.
(NASB)Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them.
15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil,
(NASB)[emphasis added by me to the original]
You then provide examples of worship that God rejected, but the examples that you provide are not examples of pagan worship. They are examples of God’s people worshiping Him unacceptably (note the underlining in the emphasis that I added in your quote above from Isaiah 1).
If you disagree, please explain how these were examples of pagan worship? What were the pagan elements of that worship? Where do theses texts say that it was offered to an idol?
2. These examples are not at all parallel to the GCI. God does not even say that these people’s hearts were turned back to their former places of pagan worship.
In the case of the GCI, the things that they did in their worship were in fact directed to an idol, not to God, as they are in your examples above. Consider:
Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Psalm 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
There is no indication in the GCI that they actually directed any of their worship activities to the Lord.
3. It is highly debatable that Aaron called what they actually did a feast to the Lord.
Exodus 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
This statement was made on the day before the feast actually took place.
[RajeshG]According to your view, all the people participated in the idolatry by giving their earrings to make the calf. All of them, therefore, turned from God and in their hearts went back again to Egypt (Acts 7:39).
Since all the people did this and Aaron consented to go along with them and there was no previously ordained feast to the Lord that was to take place the next day (according to your view), what possible reason did Aaron have in the first place for determining that tomorrow there would be a feast to the Lord?
All the people had turned away from the Lord so Aaron’s supposedly declaring completely on his own initiative that they would have a feast to the Lord makes no sense. Instead, he should have said something like, “Tomorrow, there is a feast to the gods that brought us out of Egypt.”
There is no basis for the people to have wanted to celebrate a feast to the Lord when they all have already rejected Him. Aaron would have known that they had no desire to celebrate a feast to Him. Why did Aaron, then, say that they would celebrate a feast to the Lord on the next day?
I thought you said in the post prior to this one that there was no more to discuss about the feast to the Lord, yet you continue to discuss it, as if you have some clear revelation about it that the passage doesn’t give. The timing of feasts hadn’t been given to Moses when he was before Pharaoh. They were given just a few chapters before Exodus 32, and Moses had just made one trip back down the mountain to reveal these feast dates before he went back up the mountain. He certainly wouldn’t have told Pharaoh about a feast that he hadn’t even been given instruction for.
I can’t say why Aaron would say the feast was to the Lord when he was fashioning an idol. It doesn’t seem very spiritual, does it? It sounds like he was trying to straddle a fence between worshipping God and pacifying the people. therefore, he was trying to maintain elements of both, and when you have a monotheistic God, you are going to fail miserably. Also, I want to point out the punishment given by God in Ex. 32:35 reflects the participation of the whole nation in the sinfulness. “And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.” If all the perpetrators had already been executed, why would God have sent the plague?
Moreover, since there was no divinely determined feast to the Lord scheduled in advance to take place on the next day (in your view), what they did on that day was not in any way directed to the Lord: they did not offer sacrifices to Him, play music to Him, sing to Him, dance to Him, etc. What took place the next day was completely a pagan religious feast celebrating the gods that they believed had brought them out of Egypt.As I said, it looks like Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, Why wouldn’t you use all sorts of different music or styles if you’re trying to straddle the fence. Since the Bible doesn’t say what style was used, we can’t assert that it wasn’t their normal “music that meant worship.” Why would a pagan deity be upset with “music that meant worship”? It could have been pagan music, just as it could have been their normal music.Why, then, would they have chosen to use instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that they knew were pleasing to God when they knew and could have used instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that they knew would be pleasing to their gods that the idol represented?
Using the godly Israelite styles would be offensive to their deities in whom they believed, trusted, and whom they worshiped, would they not?
Beyond all this, there is an even more basic question that must be answered: why did Aaron ordain that there would be even any kind of feast on the next day? What would his purpose(s) have been for having a feast of his own devising on the next day, given that there was no predetermined feast that was supposed to take place on that day?You’d have to ask Aaron this question, though given his utter sinfulness on this day, i doubt i would trust any excuse he would come up with.
[Kevin Miller]I did say that earlier, but then a new line of thinking that I had never thought about before came to me about how to respond to your assertion about Aaron’s making up the feast on his own: there is no reasonable basis for explaining why Aaron would make up a feast to the Lord, given the dynamics of what took place.I thought you said in the post prior to this one that there was no more to discuss about the feast to the Lord, yet you continue to discuss it, as if you have some clear revelation about it that the passage doesn’t give.
[Kevin Miller]Actually, the Bible explicitly says that Moses did tell Pharaoh that they had to go and serve God but that they would not know more about it until they had come to wherever God would take them:
The timing of feasts hadn’t been given to Moses when he was before Pharaoh. They were given just a few chapters before Exodus 32, and Moses had just made one trip back down the mountain to reveal these feast dates before he went back up the mountain. He certainly wouldn’t have told Pharaoh about a feast that he hadn’t even been given instruction for.
Exodus 10:25 And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God. 26 Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither.
Moses’ repeatedly told Pharaoh about their having to observe a feast without their having known the details at the time that he told Pharaoh those things.
[Kevin Miller]A much better and far simpler explanation is to accept that Aaron did not make up the feast at all but merely announced what God had predetermined was to take place on that day.
I can’t say why Aaron would say the feast was to the Lord when he was fashioning an idol. It doesn’t seem very spiritual, does it? It sounds like he was trying to straddle a fence between worshipping God and pacifying the people. therefore, he was trying to maintain elements of both, and when you have a monotheistic God, you are going to fail miserably.
[Kevin Miller]Yes, I have been very aware of this data, but I have not gotten to it yet in my working through the passage in this thread. As we will see later, this data does not support holding that the whole nation participated in the sinfulness. It does support that their were others beyond the approximately 3000.
Also, I want to point out the punishment given by God in Ex. 32:35 reflects the participation of the whole nation in the sinfulness. “And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.” If all the perpetrators had already been executed, why would God have sent the plague?
[Kevin Miller]Hmm. Even if Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, their is no data anywhere in any of the accounts of the GCI that shows that the people had any desire to straddle the fence. They had rejected God and turned back again to Egypt in their hearts. We have no basis to hold that they would have accepted Aaron’s imposing upon them the use of Israelite styles when they wanted to worship their gods that they believed were the ones who brought them out of Egypt.As I said, it looks like Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, Why wouldn’t you use all sorts of different music or styles if you’re trying to straddle the fence. Since the Bible doesn’t say what style was used, we can’t assert that it wasn’t their normal “music that meant worship.” Why would a pagan deity be upset with “music that meant worship”? It could have been pagan music, just as it could have been their normal music.
[Kevin Miller]Again, the right explanation is that he did not make up the feast at all.You’d have to ask Aaron this question, though given his utter sinfulness on this day, i doubt i would trust any excuse he would come up with.
I disagree:
Hmm. Even if Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, their is no data anywhere in any of the accounts of the GCI that shows that the people had any desire to straddle the fence. They had rejected God and turned back again to Egypt in their hearts. We have no basis to hold that they would have accepted Aaron’s imposing upon them the use of Israelite styles when they wanted to worship their gods that they believed were the ones who brought them out of Egypt.
Really? Because Exodus 32 makes that very point:
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.
If they wanted to incorporate the Egyptian gods into their society instead of YHWH, then why would Aaron expressly identify their ‘gods’ as YHWH (Exodus 32:5 - and you and I both know that God speaks of himself as a plural in the OT) and why would they follow the OT prescriptions of both burnt and fellowship offerings?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]They did not follow the OT prescriptions because the most important thing in those prescriptions was that those sacrifices were supposed to be offered to the Lord. Moses himself says later in Exodus 32 that the sacrifices were not to the Lord but to the idol:I disagree:
Hmm. Even if Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, their is no data anywhere in any of the accounts of the GCI that shows that the people had any desire to straddle the fence. They had rejected God and turned back again to Egypt in their hearts. We have no basis to hold that they would have accepted Aaron’s imposing upon them the use of Israelite styles when they wanted to worship their gods that they believed were the ones who brought them out of Egypt.
Really? Because Exodus 32 makes that very point:
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings.
If they wanted to incorporate the Egyptian gods into their society instead of YHWH, then why would Aaron expressly identify their ‘gods’ as YHWH (Exodus 32:5 - and you and I both know that God speaks of himself as a plural in the OT) and why would they follow the OT prescriptions of both burnt and fellowship offerings?
Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Two other Scripture writers say the same things:
Psalm 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
There is no indication in the GCI that they actually directed any of their worship activities to the Lord.
If, however, you are prepared to say that the calf was not at all a representation of their false gods but only a representation of Yahweh, then why did the Scripture writers not say that they offered their sacrifices and their worship to the Lord?
Moreover, Aaron did not “expressly identify their ‘gods’ as YHWH.” Exodus 32:5 does not say that the calf was YHWH, which is what it would have had to say to support your point; it only says that tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.
[RajeshG]It’s fine if you want to keep pouring over this point, but in my opinion, your new line of thinking doesn’t hold water any better than your old lines.I did say that earlier, but then a new line of thinking that I had never thought about before came to me about how to respond to your assertion about Aaron’s making up the feast on his own: there is no reasonable basis for explaining why Aaron would make up a feast to the Lord, given the dynamics of what took place.
Actually, the Bible explicitly says that Moses did tell Pharaoh that they had to go and serve God but that they would not know more about it until they had come to wherever God would take them:I hope you realize that quoting Exodus 10:25 actually supports my position rather than your own. Moses was telling Pharaoh that they needed all their livestock with them because God hadn’t yet told them details about the sacrifices they were to perform. Moses didn’t tell Pharaoh about any specific feast or even a feast at all, only that God wanted unspecified sacrifices. We have NO indication from any later passage that God had relayed the details that they were supposed to have a feast at a particular time or which livestock were to be sacrificed The listing of the three dated feasts included a few chapters prior to Ex 32 does not match the details of what they were doing at the GCI, so you can’t say that they were doing one of those feasts. If it was one of those feasts, you’d be able to tell us which one it was.Exodus 10:25 And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God. 26 Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither.
Moses’ repeatedly told Pharaoh about their having to observe a feast without their having known the details at the time that he told Pharaoh those things.
A much better and far simpler explanation is to accept that Aaron did not make up the feast at all but merely announced what God had predetermined was to take place on that day.A supposed pre-determination of which we have no record whatsoever in Scripture. It’s fine if you have an opinion that it was predetermined, but you can’t keep passing this opinion off as if it’s scriptural truth.
Well, if it was just the 3000 plus a few other people, then you really have to explain Exodus 32:9-10, which says 9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”Yes, I have been very aware of this data, but I have not gotten to it yet in my working through the passage in this thread. As we will see later, this data does not support holding that the whole nation participated in the sinfulness. It does support that their were others beyond the approximately 3000.
Why would God desire to wipe out almost 1 million innocent people if the sinners were only 3000 people plus a few others? God is calling the entire group of people a stiff-necked people.
Hmm. Even if Aaron was trying to straddle the fence, their is no data anywhere in any of the accounts of the GCI that shows that the people had any desire to straddle the fence. They had rejected God and turned back again to Egypt in their hearts. We have no basis to hold that they would have accepted Aaron’s imposing upon them the use of Israelite styles when they wanted to worship their gods that they believed were the ones who brought them out of Egypt.So are you now acknowledging that the entire group had rejected God rather than just 3000 plus a few others?
What I’ve been saying is that the group was going to use “music that meant worship” in order to practice worship. I don’t think Aaron had to impose upon them an idea of which music meant worship, since they already had music that meant worship. We don’t have any Israelite worship styles listed in the Bible, though we do have lists of instruments used. It does seem likely that they had a number of different styles of music that meant worship, some of which would be more lively than others. You can accuse me of speculating if you want, but speculating is what BOTH OF US have to do if we are discussing the use of any worship music used by the Israelites, whether directed toward God or toward an idol.
[RajeshG]The King James Version is one of the very few which translate the word as “naked.” Are you saying the translators of most other versions do not know Hebrew very well?Not a single Bible translator who knows Hebrew very well renders that word in Exod. 32 the way that you claim it means.
Just because it means something in another context does not mean that it has the same meaning everywhere. No, 1 Corinthians 10 establishes that the idolatry included their eating and drinking what was offered to the idol and their playing. Whatever their playing was, it was part of their idolatry.I hope you realize the irony of these three sentences. You are basically telling me that I shouldn’t use one passage to help illuminate the meaning of another passage. Then in the next sentence, you take one passage and you use it to illuminate the meaning of another passage.
No, you are missing the point about the shamefulness. Moses specifically says that Aaron made them naked to their shame among their enemies. Unbelieving enemies are not going to be ashamed that Israel became like them. There was something about the perversity of what was taking place that even unbelievers were ashamed of what was happening.The passage isn’t saying that other nations are ashamed. The passage is saying that Israel’s sin would cause shame FOR the Israelites. The Israelites would be the ones suffering shame in the midst of the foreigners to whom the Israelites were trying to show the power of the one true God. Now the foreign nations would be able to laugh and say, “Yeah right. You must really have a great god , ha ha, if you are turning to idols in your worship.”
[Kevin Miller]Does any translation render the word so that it means what you assert? Rendering it as “out-of-control” is just as bad for your case as “naked” is.The King James Version is one of the very few which translate the word as “naked.” Are you saying the translators of most other versions do not know Hebrew very well?
[Kevin Miller]I hope you realize the irony of these three sentences. You are basically telling me that I shouldn’t use one passage to help illuminate the meaning of another passage. Then in the next sentence, you take one passage and you use it to illuminate the meaning of another passage.
No irony at all. I did not do what you did in basing what you are saying merely by the use of a single word in a totally different context with no links between the passages.
What I did, by strong contrast, is to use what God explicitly links when the Spirit says “as it is written” in 1 Cor. 10:7:
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Do show where God Himself links the two passages that you want to say have the same word that conveys the same meaning in two different contexts.
[Kevin Miller]Really? If something was a shame for the Israelites, in whose eyes was it a shame for them?The passage isn’t saying that other nations are ashamed. The passage is saying that Israel’s sin would cause shame FOR the Israelites. The Israelites would be the ones suffering shame in the midst of the foreigners to whom the Israelites were trying to show the power of the one true God. Now the foreign nations would be able to laugh and say, “Yeah right. You must really have a great god , ha ha, if you are turning to idols in your worship.”
Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies.
Of course, it made them the object of shame, derision, mocking, etc. from their enemies.
[Kevin Miller]I’m not going to keep pouring over it. You yourself acknowledge that you cannot provide any explanation for your take on the passage.It’s fine if you want to keep pouring over this point, but in my opinion, your new line of thinking doesn’t hold water any better than your old lines.
[Kevin Miller]No, it does not. I did not bother to quote all the times that Moses and Aaron did say explicitly to Pharaoh that they had to celebrate a feast to the Lord. This verse is directly connected to that. I’m not going to spend the time quoting all those verses; you can do that research yourself.I hope you realize that quoting Exodus 10:25 actually supports my position rather than your own. Moses was telling Pharaoh that they needed all their livestock with them because God hadn’t yet told them details about the sacrifices they were to perform. Moses didn’t tell Pharaoh about any specific feast or even a feast at all, only that God wanted unspecified sacrifices. We have NO indication from any later passage that God had relayed the details that they were supposed to have a feast at a particular time or which livestock were to be sacrificed The listing of the three dated feasts included a few chapters prior to Ex 32 does not match the details of what they were doing at the GCI, so you can’t say that they were doing one of those feasts. If it was one of those feasts, you’d be able to tell us which one it was.
What is reported does not tell you everything that happened; in any case, the scheduled feast never took place because of their sinfulness but that does not change the fact that a feast was supposed to have taken place.
[Kevin Miller]Not at all. My use of “the people” in this sentence refers to those who participated. It does not refer to the whole group.So are you now acknowledging that the entire group had rejected God rather than just 3000 plus a few others?
1. Exodus 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
If one million people formed a mob and all gathered themselves together to Aaron and said this to him, who organized the mob and how exactly did they all say this to Aaron?
Did they all spontaneously decide to apostatize and go back in their hearts to Egypt?
Did all the people worship idols in Egypt so that they now wanted to have an idol made for them again?
Wouldn’t this mean that Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and Miriam were the only true believers among the entire people who came out of Egypt?
Did Miriam, the prophetess (Ex. 15:20), also participate fully in all the idolatry that took place? If so, why does Scripture not tell us about God’s fierce wrath on her because she was a specially chosen servant of God who also would have greatly defiled herself in what took place?
2. Exodus 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
How long would it have taken one million people to brake off their earrings and bring them to Aaron?
Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf:
What kind of tool(s) did Aaron use to work with a million pair of earrings and fashion all of that into one single molten calf?
Was Aaron skilled in idol-making because he had done so in the past or did he improvise on the spot?
3. Exodus 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
How were sufficient offerings to feed one million people offered on one altar (Ex. 32:5) before the calf in the time indicated so that they had enough time to gather all the animals, slaughter them properly, offer them on the altar, partition the meat, distribute it to all the people, and all the people ate and drank those offerings in the span of what was not even seemingly the greater part of one day so that they had plenty of time to play afterwards? How was this seemingly miraculous feeding accomplished?
Or maybe we can simply accept, Rajesh, that they did, which is precisely what God says in Scripture, and we might infer it is precisely what He wanted us to know. As Scott Adams of “Dilbert” fame notes, “never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.” Or, put another way, we know from earlier in Scripture that they’d all gone out to ask the Egyptians for those very earrings not that long before, maybe a few months before, and we know that they’d all been able to pack up their homes in less than a day to leave Egypt. We might infer that shepherds just might know how to prepare an animal to be sacrificed and eaten, because that’s exactly what they did a few months before at Passover.
You’re making the mistake, really, of assuming that there must have been something amazing going on, some kind of top down instruction, instead of people getting motivated together to do something extremely stupid. What’s going on with this passage is really not that much more remarkable than close to a billion Indians and a billion Chinese planting rice in the spring. It’s just what they did.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[RajeshG]Before I go through each of these points, I need to see your response to a part of my discussion that you didn’t include in your last few responses. I said :1. Exodus 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
If one million people formed a mob and all gathered themselves together to Aaron and said this to him, who organized the mob and how exactly did they all say this to Aaron?
Did they all spontaneously decide to apostatize and go back in their hearts to Egypt?
Did all the people worship idols in Egypt so that they now wanted to have an idol made for them again?
Wouldn’t this mean that Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and Miriam were the only true believers among the entire people who came out of Egypt?
Did Miriam, the prophetess (Ex. 15:20), also participate fully in all the idolatry that took place? If so, why does Scripture not tell us about God’s fierce wrath on her because she was a specially chosen servant of God who also would have greatly defiled herself in what took place?
2. Exodus 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
How long would it have taken one million people to brake off their earrings and bring them to Aaron?
Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf:
What kind of tool(s) did Aaron use to work with a million pair of earrings and fashion all of that into one single molten calf?
Was Aaron skilled in idol-making because he had done so in the past or did he improvise on the spot?
3. Exodus 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
How were sufficient offerings to feed one million people offered on one altar (Ex. 32:5) before the calf in the time indicated so that they had enough time to gather all the animals, slaughter them properly, offer them on the altar, partition the meat, distribute it to all the people, and all the people ate and drank those offerings in the span of what was not even seemingly the greater part of one day so that they had plenty of time to play afterwards? How was this seemingly miraculous feeding accomplished?
Well, if it was just the 3000 plus a few other people, then you really have to explain Exodus 32:9-10, which says 9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
Why would God desire to wipe out almost 1 million innocent people if the sinners were only 3000 people plus a few others? God is calling the entire group of people a stiff-necked people.
Do you not agree that God was calling the entire group a stiff-necked people? Were 990,000 righteous people getting ready for a godly feast when Aaron called it off because 3000 of the mixed multitude wanted Aaron to lead them in an idolatrous party and Aaron agreed to do it? Is that the scenario you are proposing for why God wanted to destroy all one million people?
[RajeshG]This is one of those situations where you seem to be contradicting things that you’ve written earlier, so it leaves me wondering what you actually believe about the situation. I looked back at the thread titled “How does God want Christians to profit concerning worship from Exodus 32:17-20” In the seventh post of that thread, you wrote:They did not follow the OT prescriptions because the most important thing in those prescriptions was that those sacrifices were supposed to be offered to the Lord. Moses himself says later in Exodus 32 that the sacrifices were not to the Lord but to the idol:
Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Two other Scripture writers say the same things:
Psalm 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
There is no indication in the GCI that they actually directed any of their worship activities to the Lord.
If, however, you are prepared to say that the calf was not at all a representation of their false gods but only a representation of Yahweh, then why did the Scripture writers not say that they offered their sacrifices and their worship to the Lord?
Moreover, Aaron did not “expressly identify their ‘gods’ as YHWH.” Exodus 32:5 does not say that the calf was YHWH, which is what it would have had to say to support your point; it only says that tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.
Close attention to the passage does not support understanding that they were worshiping a pagan deity. Immediately after Aaron had made the calf, they declared that this calf was their god who brought them out of Israel (32:4).
What Aaron said next is a key to a right handling of the account:
Exodus 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
He did not say that tomorrow is a feast to this pagan deity that I have just made. He said that what would take place the next day would be a feast to Yahweh.
As bad as what Aaron had already done on this occasion was, he had no intention of allowing them to offer sacrifices, sing, and dance in worship to a pagan deity. The passage is an account where Yahweh was worshiped in a false way.
So have you changed your mind about what you wrote previously when you said “The passage is an account where Yahweh was worshiped in a false way.”?
[Kevin Miller]Truly righteous people would have fought against Aaron’s making the calf in the first place and their offering sacrifices to it on the next day. They would have stopped the perverted playing from happening in the first place. They would have done what the sons of Levi finally did when Moses finally came back on the scene (Ex. 32:26-28).Before I go through each of these points, I need to see your response to a part of my discussion that you didn’t include in your last few responses. I said :
Well, if it was just the 3000 plus a few other people, then you really have to explain Exodus 32:9-10, which says 9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
Why would God desire to wipe out almost 1 million innocent people if the sinners were only 3000 people plus a few others? God is calling the entire group of people a stiff-necked people.
Do you not agree that God was calling the entire group a stiff-necked people? Were 990,000 righteous people getting ready for a godly feast when Aaron called it off because 3000 of the mixed multitude wanted Aaron to lead them in an idolatrous party and Aaron agreed to do it? Is that the scenario you are proposing for why God wanted to destroy all one million people?
I do not buy that all the people actually committed idolatry themselves. All of them were complicit in the sin because there does not seem to be any indication that anyone tried to oppose what took place.
The entire nation was responsible for what happened in that those who did not engage in idolatrous worship themselves nonetheless failed to stop the others from doing so. They were sinful because they stood by and allowed this horrifically sinful event to take place.
Truly righteous people would have fought against Aaron’s making the calf in the first place and their offering sacrifices to it on the next day.
They would have stopped the perverted playing from happening in the first place.
They would have done what the sons of Levi finally did when Moses finally came back on the scene (Ex. 32:26-28).
Truly righteous people would have, on their own initiative, drawn swords and went through the populace slaughtering their family members, neighbors and friends? Moses gives us a graphic description in Exodus 32:27-29:
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
You have a weird definition of righteousness if it involves the unsanctioned murder of random family members, friends and neighbors for idol worship and sexual immorality.
Oh, and for ungodly music too. We can’t forget that is the real theme of Exodus 32, right?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
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