1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person's having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes--in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
dcbii wrote:
Thanks for a detailed response. I see that you do not mention the single most important component that this thread treats and is the key to the entire thread: demonic influence on evil idolaters. Do you believe that demons influenced the people in the GCI in their activities or not? If not, why not?
If you believe that demons did influence them, do you believe that the demons influenced the people to behave unrighteously or not? If not, why not?
Exodus 32:18 specifically mentions that they were singing. Exodus 32:19 specifically mentions that they were dancing. Do you believe that people under demonic influence in a worship context will still sing and dance righteously? If you believe that they will still sing and dance righteously, why do you believe that they will still do so?
RajeshG wrote:
The impasse as I see it:
* You are not here to discuss. You are here to educate us on your beliefs. You attempt to steer these threads as if you own the joint, smacking down the unruly and refusing to consider valid points that are in opposition to you.
* In general, I think it is widely recognized that your beliefs are more about your biases than the Bible. Otherwise, you would not have to contort yourself into knots to try to pull principles out of the Bible as you do. (As an aside, I would really like to know your back story as to why you came to hate CCM so badly.)
* You refuse to answer hard questions.
* You refuse to give specifics. You have not even defined rock music but you claim we should avoid it.
* You do not draw lines that give any help. Your claim is that we should avoid rock music because of the quotes of a few rock musicians. Why shouldn't we only avoid the music of those musicians? Or maybe we should only avoid the music from the same era as those musicians? Or, why should we not avoid all music that uses the same elements of those rock musicians? As an example, if those musicians like minor 7ths, why should we not avoid all music with minor 7ths? Or trapsets? Or a million other things?
RajeshG wrote:
Rock n Roll
Rock 'n roll ain't noise pollution ...
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist?
Kevin Miller wrote:
Says who? Many rock musicians have testified either of their music itself being demonic or of their being demonically influenced as they played their music.
Do you have a biblical reason for rejecting the testimonies of the rock musicians themselves that their music was demonic? Do you have a biblical reason to reject their own testimonies that their music is sensual to the core, and that it is the music of chaos and rebellion, all of which are condemned in the Bible?
RajeshG wrote:
Rajesh, what is rock music? And if you can't define it, why are you talking about it?
Your argument here is absurd. For every one strung out musician who talks about demonic music, there are 99 others who would laugh at that.
Also
When do we ever need a Biblical reason to reject foolishness? There’s a dozen or more good reasons to reject rock music / CCM in our churches without having to lean on the testimonies of the unsaved.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Joe Whalen wrote:
I did not miss your earlier post.
To my knowledge, the specific types of statements about music that you are talking about in these questions are not mentioned directly in the OT. There are many passages that speak about their idolatry that would have included the matter of any idolatrous worship music that they may have had, but there are no explicit statements.
Regardless, Exodus 32 established the foundation for all their subsequent understanding of the dangers of idolatry. When the prohibitions in passages such as Deut. 12 were given, which were given after Exodus 32 was given, God's people were naturally expected to bring to their understanding of what was prohibited by keeping in mind the previous revelation that they had been given about idolatry in passages such as Exodus 32 and Numbers 25.
It is vital to keep in mind that Jeroboam introduced the idolatrous worship of two golden calves to the Northern Kingdom and devised his own idolatrous feast as well (1 Kings 12:28-33). The Spirit chooses not to give details about that feast because He expects us to understand what such a feast would include from passages such as Exodus 32.
The corrupting influence of Jeroboam's idolatry plagued the Northern Kingdom throughout its history. The Spirit refers back to his sins on numerous occasions, but does not talk explicitly about his feast in any other passages. The fact that He does not do so does not mean that the initial occasion was the only actual time that they celebrated that idolatrous feast because the Spirit says in a summary passage that the Northern Kingdom walked in all his sins until the end of the kingdom (2 Kings 17:22-23).
There are also condemnations of Babylon's music (for example, Isaiah 14) and commands to come out from her sinfulness (Is. 52:11; Jer. 51:6, 9, 45) that certainly would have included rejecting her idolatrous music.
In any case, the apostle Paul explicitly cites the idolatrous playing in the GCI when he commands us not to be idolaters as they were. For the Corinthians and for us, therefore, we can be certain that the Spirit wanted the Corinthians and wants us to pay very close attention to the revelation in the GCI in knowing what we He wants us not to do, as those idolaters did.
GregH wrote:
There are many sources that you can consult if you want to know what is rock music.Here is one: https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_music
I do not have to be able to define it myself--the musicians who have produced that music have known what they have talked about when they have called their music "rock music."
Any attempts by you or anyone else to try to force further discussion about this or any other definitions of rock music are going to be ignored so do not waste my time and yours trying to engage me in any such discussions. I am not going to waste my time talking about such things that the Bible does not talk about directly.
Furthermore, the Spirit does not tell us all the specifics about what comprises "the unfruitful works of darkness" that we are to have no fellowship with (Eph. 5:11). In His perfect wisdom, He does not specify or define such things because the list would be endless. We do not have to be able to define such things precisely to know what things we must reject--things connected with supernatural evil.
Similarly, in Romans 1:30, the Spirit does not specify or define for us what comprises the things that reprobate idolaters have made when He speaks of them as "inventors of evil."
You should learn from what God does in these passages and quite a few others when He does not define sinful things and yet speaks of them as things that are wicked and must be rejected.
RajeshG wrote:
Rasjesh... How are you supposed to reject rock music if you apparently don't know what it is? I am referring to you personally. How do you personally figure out what is rock music and thus to be rejected?
And why have you wasted 20 pages of defending a position when you can't even define the most basic terms of the debate?
I don't mind you ignoring this by the way. I am just pointing out to everyone else the absurdity of your arguments. Not that they need help figuring out that your arguments are absurd.
GregH wrote:
I grew up heavily immersed in rock music and lots of other wicked music of the world. I do not have to be able to define it myself to know what it sounds like. More importantly, as I said, we can be confident that the people who say that the music that they play and produce is rock music know what they are talking about.
I have not wasted 20 pages. I have carefully and in great detail presented how the Bible attests to the reality of demonically influenced music and how God repeatedly demands that His people not have anything to do with any such wickedness.
There is not anything absurd about my arguments. It is deadly to give the devil any benefit of any doubt about any music that is sourced in wickedness. Many Christians have explained away the many biblical warnings about rejecting the things of the world such as its ungodly music. Many have become desensitized to it.
God's people must reject all the wicked music of demonically influenced people and other evil people and reject all use of such music in worship.
RajeshG wrote:
This certainly weakens your position. Your position is that their idolatry certainly included music and God's commands against the peoples' idolatry must be applied to their music. But you have no places in the OT where the Spirit says that directly. 1,100 years of the Spirit giving revelation (from Moses to Malachi) and He never says it directly.
According to your writing, the only person who explicitly makes this connection is Paul, 1,500 years after Moses. And then, after Paul makes his one-only-connection, no one else in Scripture makes the explicit connection, according to you.
Rajesh, what you have is a preference. You would prefer a certain musical genre not be used in worship. But you don't have any revelation where God ever says such a thing.
And I'm not faulting you for your preference. In fact, I'm glad you've given this some thought and that you've come to a conclusion. The danger is when one takes his preference and tries to say that his preference is a command from God that others must agree to and obey. Our preferences, no matter how strongly held, are terrible substitutes for God's Word.
Joe Whalen wrote:
No, this is not an accurate representation of the data. The Spirit explicitly directs the attention of God's people to the GCI in 6 books of the Bible and implicitly in a 7th passage. Exodus 32, as the key passage about the GCI, is therefore a premier passage to heed for God's people to know what He wants them to know about worship that is not acceptable to Him.
You do not get to dismiss an apostolic command, even though it be given only once in a particular specific form, and call it a preference. When you do so, you take a position that you are wiser than God and know more about what He wants His people to do in worship than He does.
In addition, my position is not based just on that one command. There is much other biblical revelation about music to back up my position.
For that revelation, however, to have its intended effects on God's people, the false notion that all instrumental music--no matter its source or nature--is inherently acceptable to God for use in worship has to be refuted. I have done so in this thread and have much more biblical data that further shows that position is false.
My position on this point is not just based on the data presented in this thread. There is much more explicit biblical data of various sorts to support the command from Paul and its application to what we are to do musically and what we are not to do musically.
Joe Whalen wrote: ...
FYI, Paul’s reference to “playing” is much closer to “playing like a child” than “playing music.” There isn’t any reason to insist that music is in 1 Cor 10 at all.
RajeshG wrote:
Rajesh, I feel for you. Honestly. I have been where you are - I've felt this way about my preferences, too. Because you are my brother in Christ, beloved by Jesus, I urge you to take my (and other's) pushback to your teaching as a gift from God. Please keep your preference - I'm not asking you to change it. But none of us are allowed to elevate our preferences to commands from God.
Dan Miller wrote:
Is that so? Do bring forth the biblical data that supports this notion.
Here is the thing Rajesh.
Here is the thing Rajesh. There is not one person here that thinks that demonic music belongs in a church. Not a single one.
The problem for you is that you can't seem to tell us what demonic music is. You use squishy terms like "form" and "rock" and when pressed, you don't even know how to define them. You duck all the hard questions and hide behind your assertion that you are commanded not to know anything about the music you condemn.
I really don't think you know that much about music since you can't seem to answer basic questions about it. Yet, your arbitrary decision of what music is demonic ("rock") is supposedly so clear that it should be binding on all of us. Apparently, it is so clear that no one else is allowed to draw their line in a different place.
GregH wrote:
The more that I interact with you, Greg, the more doubt I have that you really believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. Do you or do you not believe that the entire Bible is the perfect inspired Word of God?
RajeshG wrote:
Reaction to your Preference Being Hit
Rajesh, many of us have discovered that teaching and defending biblical teachings have humbled us and made us more thankful children of God. Contra that, many of us have discovered that teaching and defending our preferences as biblical doctrine made us frightened and proud. Frightened because others were poking holes in our teachings, and proud because we really thought we were right and they were wrong (although, as it turned out, we were wrong).
If you were an outsider reading your posts (and specifically this line, "The more that I interact with you, Greg, the more doubt I have that you really believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God,") would you say you come across as humble and thankful, or frightened and proud? In light of that, do you think you are teaching and defending true biblical doctrine or your own preference?
Joe Whalen wrote:
I guess you’re serious. And it’s generous to ask this question. But if he has genuine insight into himself I’ll be very surprised.
Kevin Miller wrote:
I have not claimed that any CCM musicians say that their music is demonic. There are testimonies of CCM musicians who say that their music is sensual music.
You obviously believe that CCM musicians can use the same instrumental genres/styles as wicked musicians use and still be accepted by God provided the words are biblical. I reject that view categorically.
It is also a well-established fact that many CCM musicians routinely listen to secular rock bands and pattern their music after them. This is so much so the case that the music of many CCM musicians has been classified by what secular rock bands their music is similar too. The only way to justify such copying of the music of ungodly secular rock bands is to hold that the instrumental aspects of the music of the secular bands is perfectly good and acceptable to God for use in worship.
RajeshG wrote:
Well duh, good musicians copy, great musicians steal and for that matter.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVyNnKsmdok
GregH wrote:
Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
RajeshG wrote:
Sorry, not really applicable like you think it is. Secular musicians are just in general far better and knowledgeable than Christian musicians. There is a lot to learn from them. I learned far more from a few years of study with a jazz pianist than I ever did in Christian college. And if you think all secular musicians or all rock musicians are ungodly, you are sadly misinformed. Some of the finest people I know are in professional secular music. By the way, some of my favorite people in the world are in professional Christian music too (most definitely music you would disapprove of).
You apparently claim that learning rock is being conformed to the world. I could use the same arguments about you using the guitar. I would be as wrong as you are but I could make the same arguments.
GregH wrote:
Your pronouncement equals it being so without any biblical argumentation? Wrong.
The Bible shows that righteous people sometimes used some of the same instruments as the unrighteous, but it never says or supports in any way that the righteous ever borrowed or copied the wicked music of the wicked to play on those instruments in the worship of God.
RajeshG wrote:
This is not hard Rajesh. Regardless of what you say...
All rock music is not wicked.
All rock musicians are not wicked.
Even in the secular world of professional rock music, there are many Christians. Who are you to speak of fellow Christians in this way? The Bible speaks only once of rock music (Luke 19:40) and in a quite positive way
Your preference against rock music is noted but it is simply a preference.
GregH wrote:
This is pure assertion. You do not have any Bible to establish the validity of this statement.
And of even greater importance is the fact that you do not have any Bible to support the notion that God accepts the use of any rock music in worship.
RajeshG wrote:
Videos!
While we're at it, this is a song that encouraged me while a young pup in Christ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZQxH_8raCI
OK, bad line in there. Fix it, I"d sing it in church. Now here's one that really shows how problematic it is to come out against a blues beat in music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4hdWcxa0lQ
Now parse that out and tell me how you differentiate that, musically speaqking, from early Temptations. You've got the tight harmonies, similar rhythm, etc. And remember, black Gospel came first. You wanna argue demonic attacks there, be my guest, but don't complain when someone responds in no uncertain terms. Here's some more from the Five Blind Boys of Alabama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0EN_Hmq534
Keep in mind here that the basic tune of Amazing Grace is....yes, a spiritual. Forerunner to blues, jazz, and yes, rock-n-roll.
And here's another one, from the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baje6r60do4
Yeah, you'll hear a lot of the same thing in 1950s rock-n-roll, and it's worth noting that respectability was very important in that era. And of course, there's someone else we can't forget here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThsYX4RBtbw
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
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