We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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[Kevin Miller]Also, do we have to use 1 Cor. 10:21-22 to understand what 1 Cor. 10:18-20 talk about or not?I’m sorry if letting other Scripture verses define the meaning of a word is disturbing to you. It seems you’re most disturbed that the verses I present don’t match up with the meaning you’re trying to convey. To me, the phrase “You’re refusing to let God teach you” is the same as saying, “You’re refusing to agree with my interpretations.” It’s disturbing to me that you’re placing your own interpretations on the same level as God’s Word.
I’m actually trying my hardest to even understand your interpretations.You’re not making it easy.
Is Acts 2 a passage about people in a worship context consuming things sacrificed to an idol?
[RajeshG]Yes, so lets look at the context of the quote. Verse six starts out with ” Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.” The next verse give examples of the people desiring evil. The first example is the GCI in verse 7, where the people showed they desired evil by practicing idolatry. The next example is verse 8 where the people showed they desired evil by indulging in sexual immorality. In verse 9, they desired evil when they “put Christ to the test,” and in verse 19 they grumbled.I see. Well, let’s back up. Does 1 Cor. 10:7 quote from Exodus 32:6 or not?
The point is about our heart. We shouldn’t desire evil. We should watch out for things that tempt our hearts and not fall into evil. Verse 13 promises that we CAN withstand the temptation to the evil things the Israelites did, ” No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
Verses 14-17 then give a picture of participation/fellowship by looking at the Lord’s Supper. When we take the cup, we are willingly identifying ourselves with Christ’s blood. “Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ?”(v. 16a) When we take the bread, we are identifying ourselves with the body of Christ. ” And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?”(v, 16b) When we take the Lord’s Supper together as a church, we are identifying ourselves one with another as one body. “Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.” (v. 17)
Idolatry then becomes a matter of showing identification with demons, which we SHOULD NOT desire to do. Verses 18-20 say, “18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.” Paul is saying that the Lord’s table is identification with Christ, but the pagan table is identification with demons, and we shouldn’t be identifying with BOTH. Verse 21-22 make this inability to identify with both perfectly clear. “21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy?” Nowhere in this passage do we have indication that demons are going to “take control” in some fashion if we are identifying with them.
So how does the quote from Genesis fit in? The words are simply a description, straight from Genesis, of what the people were doing as they “desired evil.” It’s a description of them choosing to be idolatrous. You’ve been trying to make some sort of connection that this simple descriptive statement is an indication that the GCI people were practically under the total control of demons such that even the music they produced was corrupted by the demons. I don’t understand how you make that connection, when the context of “participation” in 1 Cor 10 is directly tied to who WE choose to identify with, and it doesn’t have anything to do with demons controlling people.
[Kevin Miller]Have you studied NT Greek? If so, do you know it well?So how does the quote from Genesis fit in? The words are simply a description, straight from Genesis, of what the people were doing as they “desired evil.” It’s a description of them choosing to be idolatrous. You’ve been trying to make some sort of connection that this simple descriptive statement is an indication that the GCI people were practically under the total control of demons such that even the music they produced was corrupted by the demons. I don’t understand how you make that connection, when the context of “participation” in 1 Cor 10 is directly tied to who WE choose to identify with, and it doesn’t have anything to do with demons controlling people.
[RajeshG]I took Greek in college. “How well I know it” is a subjective determination. I figure I know it well enough.Have you studied NT Greek? If so, do you know it well?
The sequence of thought in 1 Cor 10 is pretty clear in all the English translations I checked, so I don’t think I need to go through and translate the passage myself from the Greek. There are plenty of online resources that let me read the Greek next to the English translation.
[Kevin Miller]How much Greek did you take?I took Greek in college. “How well I know it” is a subjective determination. I figure I know it well enough.
The sequence of thought in 1 Cor 10 is pretty clear in all the English translations I checked, so I don’t think I need to go through and translate the passage myself from the Greek. There are plenty of online resources that let me read the Greek next to the English translation.
[RajeshG]Enough to know that koinónous doesn’t mean “control.”How much Greek did you take?
[Kevin Miller]Be careful not to set up straw men. I have not made any specific claims about the meaning of that specific Greek word.Enough to know that koinónous doesn’t mean “control.”
What its use in a particular Greek grammatical structure and larger context means is what has to be established. You assert that it is used in 1 Cor. 10 to mean “identification.”
If you have any Greek lexical sources that say that specific word by itself means “identification,” I would like to know what those sources are and exactly what they say concerning the meaning of the word.
[Kevin Miller]Here’s why 10:7-10 does not provide 4 examples of “the people desiring evil,” etc:Yes, so lets look at the context of the quote. Verse six starts out with ” Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.” The next verse give examples of the people desiring evil. The first example is the GCI in verse 7, where the people showed they desired evil by practicing idolatry. The next example is verse 8 where the people showed they desired evil by indulging in sexual immorality. In verse 9, they desired evil when they “put Christ to the test,” and in verse 19 they grumbled.
The point is about our heart. We shouldn’t desire evil. We should watch out for things that tempt our hearts and not fall into evil.
1 Corinthians 10:6 Ταῦτα δὲ τύποι ἡμῶν ἐγενήθησαν, εἰς τὸ μὴ εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἐπιθυμητὰς κακῶν, καθὼς κἀκεῖνοι ἐπεθύμησαν.
7 μηδὲ εἰδωλολάτραι γίνεσθε καθώς τινες αὐτῶν, ὥσπερ γέγραπται· ἐκάθισεν ὁ λαὸς φαγεῖν καὶ πεῖν καὶ ἀνέστησαν παίζειν.
8 μηδὲ πορνεύωμεν, καθώς τινες αὐτῶν ἐπόρνευσαν καὶ ἔπεσαν μιᾷ ἡμέρᾳ εἴκοσι τρεῖς χιλιάδες.
9 μηδὲ ἐκπειράζωμεν τὸν Χριστόν, καθώς τινες αὐτῶν ἐπείρασαν καὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ὄφεων ἀπώλλυντο.
10 μηδὲ γογγύζετε, καθάπερ τινὲς αὐτῶν ἐγόγγυσαν καὶ ἀπώλοντο ὑπὸ τοῦ ὀλοθρευτοῦ.
From 10:7-10, each verse begins with the same negative disjunctive particle μηδὲ.
BDAG (3rd ed) is the standard Greek lexicon for biblical studies. In the entry for μηδὲ, BDAG says, “Negative disjunctive particle … and not, but not, nor continuing a preceding negation (almost always w. μὴ) [BDAG, 647].” Note carefully that this particle continues a preceding negation; it does not have an explicative or epexegetical use listed in BDAG.
Paul’s use of μηδὲ at the beginning of verse 7 shows that he is continuing the preceding negation that he began when he said, εἰς τὸ μὴ εἶναι … in 10:6. Verse 7 is not the first of four examples of how the people desired evil. It is the 2nd of the negative examples given to us in this passage.
Note also, that every verse in these five verses has the same components:
Negative particle (μὴ in 10:6; μηδὲ in 10:7, 8, 9, and 10) followed by a verb (εἶναι [10:6]; γίνεσθε [10:7]; πορνεύωμεν [10:8]; ἐκπειράζωμεν [10:9]; γογγύζετε [10:10] ) followed by an adverb (καθώς in 10:6, 7, 8, and 9; καθάπερ in 10:10).
First Corinthians 10:7-10 is not a passage that has 4 examples of how the people craved evil things or desired evil desires (10:6b).
First Corinthians 10:6b -10 is a passage that has 5 examples for our instruction (10:6a) of how God was not well-pleased with many of them and overthrew them in the wilderness (10:5).
The people’s lusting after evil things in 10:6b refers to the people’s sinfully craving for foods in the wilderness that God had chosen not to provide for them (Num. 11:4, 34). It is the first of the 5 negative examples given for our instruction.
The KJV rightly renders the Greek by using “neither” to connect 10:7-10 with 10:6
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
This passage is not teaching directly that the heart was the problem in each of the 5 examples. You have misunderstood how 10:7-10 connects to 10:6.
[RajeshG]But you have made claims about what fellowship with demons would entail. You even titled one of your posts “Fellowship that surely ensnares.” You said in that post, “By consuming in a worship context what has been offered to an idol, humans serve false gods and surely are ensnared. They are taken captive by the demons who are the real entities behind those idols.” You later described these humans as being “influenced by demons to such an extent that they are not in their right minds:” You then said “People under strong demonic influence who are not in their senses but not possessed are incapable of worshiping God properly in any form.” You have repeated pulled a sentence out of 1 Cor. 10:7 to imply that the wild,out-of-control behavior of the GCI was the result of the fellowship of verse 20. You wrote, “All the people who in a worship context ate and drank what was offered to the idol in the GCI came into fellowship with demons. Because they sinned greatly by engaging in that idolatrous eating and drinking, none of them had any ability to resist the devil, even if they were believers.” From what I am reading, your idea of fellowship is “such a strong influence that it ensnares, puts one out of their right mind, is impossible to resist, and results in uncontrollable behavior.”Be careful not to set up straw men. I have not made any specific claims about the meaning of that specific Greek word.
I don’t think I’m setting up a straw man. I’m simply reading the specific claims you’ve made about “fellowship.”
What its use in a particular Greek grammatical structure and larger context means is what has to be established.I’ve already presented the way I read the context. How do you see the analogy between fellowship with Christ’s body and blood and fellowship with demons? The same Greek word is used in both sides of the analogy.
You assert that it is used in 1 Cor. 10 to mean “identification.”Well, the lexicon says the meaning is that of partnership, association, community, and communion. From the context o 1 Cor 10, I think the idea of identification is an accurate representation of our role within the partnership. When we believe, our identities become unified with Christ, such that His death on the cross applies to us. In Gal. 2:20, Paul says, “I have been crucified with Christ..” When we partake of the Lord’s Supper together, we are recognizing Christ’s death for us, and also recognizing that “we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.”(v. 17) I suppose “unification” might be a more precise word that “identification,” but I think identification shows our willingness to live our lives according to this unity we have.If you have any Greek lexical sources that say that specific word by itself means “identification,” I would like to know what those sources are and exactly what they say concerning the meaning of the word.
Do you have any lexical sources to show that “fellowship” has the meaning which you’ve been describing (even though you are, for some reason, denying that you’ve described fellowship)?
[Kevin Miller]My comment about straw men was specific to your saying that you know Greek “enough to know that koinónous doesn’t mean ‘control.’” I never made that claim for that specific Greek word.But you have made claims about what fellowship with demons would entail. You even titled one of your posts “Fellowship that surely ensnares.” You said in that post, “By consuming in a worship context what has been offered to an idol, humans serve false gods and surely are ensnared. They are taken captive by the demons who are the real entities behind those idols.” You later described these humans as being “influenced by demons to such an extent that they are not in their right minds:” You then said “People under strong demonic influence who are not in their senses but not possessed are incapable of worshiping God properly in any form.” You have repeated pulled a sentence out of 1 Cor. 10:7 to imply that the wild,out-of-control behavior of the GCI was the result of the fellowship of verse 20. You wrote, “All the people who in a worship context ate and drank what was offered to the idol in the GCI came into fellowship with demons. Because they sinned greatly by engaging in that idolatrous eating and drinking, none of them had any ability to resist the devil, even if they were believers.” From what I am reading, your idea of fellowship is “such a strong influence that it ensnares, puts one out of their right mind, is impossible to resist, and results in uncontrollable behavior.”
I don’t think I’m setting up a straw man. I’m simply reading the specific claims you’ve made about “fellowship.”
I’ve already presented the way I read the context. How do you see the analogy between fellowship with Christ’s body and blood and fellowship with demons? The same Greek word is used in both sides of the analogy.
Well, the lexicon says the meaning is that of partnership, association, community, and communion. From the context o 1 Cor 10, I think the idea of identification is an accurate representation of our role within the partnership. When we believe, our identities become unified with Christ, such that His death on the cross applies to us. In Gal. 2:20, Paul says, “I have been crucified with Christ..” When we partake of the Lord’s Supper together, we are recognizing Christ’s death for us, and also recognizing that “we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.”(v. 17) I suppose “unification” might be a more precise word that “identification,” but I think identification shows our willingness to live our lives according to this unity we have.
Do you have any lexical sources to show that “fellowship” has the meaning which you’ve been describing (even though you are, for some reason, denying that you’ve described fellowship)?
No, the same Greek word is not used in both sides of the analogy. Two different Greek words are used: κοινωνία (1 Cor. 10:16) and κοινωνός (1 Cor. 10:18, 20).
As for your other comments, I will address them in upcoming comments.
[RajeshG]Ah, but the first example is a foundation upon which the other examples are building. The passage is Numbers is one of the times in which the people lusted for evil things. It’s not the only time. James 1:15 tells us, “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin.” Lust is the foundation for all other sins. Any other sin that’s listed started out with lust. 1 Cor 10 does not reference the Numbers passage in verse 6, as verse 7 references a particular time of idolatry. There is no reason from verse 6 that we should limit the lusting to just sinfully craving foods in the wilderness.The people’s lusting after evil things in 10:6b refers to the people’s sinfully craving for foods in the wilderness that God had chosen not to provide for them (Num. 11:4, 34). It is the first of the 5 negative examples given for our instruction.
[RajeshG]Ah, I see you’re going to quibble about whether different forms of the same Greek word are actually related to each other in meaning.No, the same Greek word is not used in both sides of the analogy. Two different Greek words are used: κοινωνία (1 Cor. 10:16) and κοινωνός (1 Cor. 10:18, 20).
[Kevin Miller]You are making a factually wrong assertion. This is not a case of “different forms of the same Greek word.” Those two words are two different Greek words—they are not different forms of the same Greek word.Ah, I see you’re going to quibble about whether different forms of the same Greek word are actually related to each other in meaning.
[Kevin Miller]No, the first one is not a foundation upon which the other examples are building. In the first example, the people were not lusting for things that were sinful; they were desiring foodstuffs that were not sinful at all in and of themselves. In all the other examples, the people engaged in actions that are sinful and are never right.Ah, but the first example is a foundation upon which the other examples are building. The passage is Numbers is one of the times in which the people lusted for evil things. It’s not the only time. James 1:15 tells us, “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin.” Lust is the foundation for all other sins. Any other sin that’s listed started out with lust. 1 Cor 10 does not reference the Numbers passage in verse 6, as verse 7 references a particular time of idolatry. There is no reason from verse 6 that we should limit the lusting to just sinfully craving foods in the wilderness.
There is a very good reason that you cannot say that the first example is the foundation for the rest. The grammar in the Greek does not support your contention.
Had the Spirit wanted us to understand that the first was the foundation for the rest, He could easily have inspired the use of a different grammatical structure that would have communicated that to us.
[Kevin Miller]Yes, we can withstand temptation with God’s help, but only when we are right with Him. If we flout Him and sin presumptuously against Him, this will not be true.The point is about our heart. We shouldn’t desire evil. We should watch out for things that tempt our hearts and not fall into evil. Verse 13 promises that we CAN withstand the temptation to the evil things the Israelites did, ” No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
[Kevin Miller]You seem to be treating verses 14-17 as if they were a separate unit that “give a picture of participation/fellowship by looking at the Lord’s Supper.” Verse 14, however, is directly tied to what precedes it (“Wherefore …”) because it gives a command concerning idolatry, which ties it back to what preceded it.Verses 14-17 then give a picture of participation/fellowship by looking at the Lord’s Supper. When we take the cup, we are willingly identifying ourselves with Christ’s blood. “Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ?”(v. 16a) When we take the bread, we are identifying ourselves with the body of Christ. ” And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?”(v, 16b) When we take the Lord’s Supper together as a church, we are identifying ourselves one with another as one body. “Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.” (v. 17)
Concerning idolatry, God demands that we flee it. We are not to give it any place in our lives. God is not going to give you help so that you can bear the temptation to commit idolatry if you willfully put yourself in situations where you encounter such temptations—He commands you to flee it!
[Kevin Miller]No, idolatry is not “a matter of showing identification with demons,” whatever exactly you might think that mean (I do not know what you think it means).
Idolatry then becomes a matter of showing identification with demons, which we SHOULD NOT desire to do. Verses 18-20 say, “18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.” Paul is saying that the Lord’s table is identification with Christ, but the pagan table is identification with demons, and we shouldn’t be identifying with BOTH. Verse 21-22 make this inability to identify with both perfectly clear. “21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy?” Nowhere in this passage do we have indication that demons are going to “take control” in some fashion if we are identifying with them.
Paul says explicitly in v. 20 that when the Gentiles offers sacrifices to an idol, they offer those sacrifices to demons. When humans do so, they give demons worship that belongs only to God. They partner with demons to deny God the worship that is due Him. They partner with demons to advance demonic interests, fulfill demonic desires, and accomplish demonic objectives. They give place to the devil in their lives that gives him the opportunity to devour them and others.
[Kevin Miller]Here is how two top Greek lexical authorities define κοινωνόςWell, the lexicon says the meaning is that of partnership, association, community, and communion. From the context o 1 Cor 10, I think the idea of identification is an accurate representation of our role within the partnership. When we believe, our identities become unified with Christ, such that His death on the cross applies to us. In Gal. 2:20, Paul says, “I have been crucified with Christ..” When we partake of the Lord’s Supper together, we are recognizing Christ’s death for us, and also recognizing that “we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.”(v. 17) I suppose “unification” might be a more precise word that “identification,” but I think identification shows our willingness to live our lives according to this unity we have.
Do you have any lexical sources to show that “fellowship” has the meaning which you’ve been describing (even though you are, for some reason, denying that you’ve described fellowship)?
“κ. τῶν δαιμονίων be a partner w. the divinities (of polytheists) (in the sacrifices offered to them) 1 Cor 10:20” (BDAG, 553)
“one who participates with another in some enterprise or matter of joint concern – ‘partner, associate, one who joins in with” (Greek-English Lexicon of the NT Based on Semantic Domains Vol. 1, 447)
These sources both point to people partnering with demons in the sacrifices offered to them. This goes way beyond any notion of identification. Such partnering is a flagrant violation of the divine commands not to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11) and not to give the devil any place (Eph. 4:27). When people team up with demons to engage in this vile, sinful behavior that mightily provokes God to wrath, what do you think that means concerning the ability of demons to strongly influence such people?
Do you think that these people are submitted to God when they do this so that they can resist the devil? Are such people highly susceptible to being devoured by the devil or not?
[Kevin Miller]As I have presented earlier, 1 Cor. 10 is not “directly tied to who WE choose to identify with” when it speaks of those who “have fellowship with demons” (10:20).So how does the quote from
Genesis[Exod. 32] fit in? The words are simply a description, straight fromGenesis[Exodus] , of what the people were doing as they “desired evil.” It’s a description of them choosing to be idolatrous. You’ve been trying to make some sort of connection that this simple descriptive statement is an indication that the GCI people were practically under the total control of demons such that even the music they produced was corrupted by the demons. I don’t understand how you make that connection, when the context of “participation” in 1 Cor 10 is directly tied to who WE choose to identify with, and it doesn’t have anything to do with demons controlling people.
Going back to 1 Cor. 10:7 now, we must accept that the Spirit focuses our attention to the fact that the people were idolatrous in two specific ways:
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Through this statement, the Spirit commands believers not to be idolatrous in eating and drinking in a worship context what has been offered to an idol, and He commands us not to be idolatrous in doing what these people did when they “rose up to play” subsequent to their idolatrous consumption of those foodstuffs.
Because the Spirit has done this and because Ex. 32 records what those subsequent activities of those people were in their idolatrous playing, we must pay attention to what Exodus 32 reveals to us about those subsequent idolatrous activities that they engaged in when they “rose up to play.”
Divine wisdom is from above, but earthly, sensual, and devilish wisdom is not (James 3:15). This reality applies to all areas of our understanding about all things.
In the perfect wisdom of God, He has provided to us vital revelation about the things that comprised the idolatrous worship in the GCI. Because that revelation includes information about the music on that occasion, we know that information about the music is vital information for what we believe about ungodly worship music versus godly worship music.
Furthermore, because that music was produced by people who partnered with demons in their idolatrous playing on that occasion, we know that their music was demonically influenced music. Concerning such music that is demonically influenced, the only inerrant, infallible information that we have is what God has provided to us in His Word. What God has revealed to us is the perfect information that we need to know about demonically influenced music that is not acceptable to Him in corporate worship.
The Spirit has provided us two verses that pertain directly to the music in the GCI:
Exodus 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
Neither Moses nor Joshua could hear any of the lyrics of what the people were singing. We are to learn from this that whether the lyrics are godly or ungodly is not the deciding criterion for whether worship music is pleasing to God or not.
What they could hear was the composite sound emanating from the camp. This fact teaches us that whether music is acceptable to God or not ultimately is determined by the nature of the composite sound of whatever sounds are being produced.
[RajeshG]I agree with these sentences about what it means to fellowship with demons. In fact, this is what I meant when i wrote on page 3 of this thread, “To me, fellowship means something like “going in the same direction,” ” and “We as humans shouldn’t be traveling in the same rebellious path as demons do,” I used slightly different wording, but the thought was the same, and you dismissed it.They partner with demons to deny God the worship that is due Him. They partner with demons to advance demonic interests, fulfill demonic desires, and accomplish demonic objectives.
[RajeshG]What do i think it means concerning the “ability of demons”? Now THAT is a good question. It’s one I’ve been trying to deal with in this thread. What “abilities of demons” do we have explicit teaching about in the Bible? You are proclaiming some sort of “strong demonic influence’ asa n ability of demons. We know demons can possess people, so that’s why I asked if the “strong demonic influence” was possession. You assured me that it wasn’t, even though you describe it as an inescapable condition that causes people to not be in their right minds. That sounds like possession to me, but you say it isn’t. We know demons have the ability to tempt people, yet this “strong demonic influence” you proclaim is much greater than just temptation. You simply don’t have any explicit verses to support your claim that demons have this ability. You infer it from ideas like “giving place” and “fellowship.” A warning that we should not give the devil opportunities to tempt us is hardly an explicit teaching that demons can inescapably control us. A warning that eating idol meat causes one to practice rebellion along with demons is not an indication that demons have been given inescapable control. If Paul had wanted to show that demons were being given total control over the person, he would have used a word such as control or subjection.When people team up with demons to engage in this vile, sinful behavior that mightily provokes God to wrath, what do you think that means concerning the ability of demons to strongly influence such people?
You’ve used the behavior of the people in the GCI as some sort of example that demons have been given total control over the worshippers, yet there is no indication in the Genesis chapter that demons are even involved. The only way you link demonic activity to the event is by using the word “fellowship” from 1 Cor 10, and then you make up your own “ability of demons” to explain the “fellowship” in the Genesis chapter. It’s all circular reasoning and leaps of logic. You then take another big leap, beyond the first leap, to say that this supposed “strong demonic influence” is soooo strong that it doesn’t just cause the people to sin, but it also affects that which humans produce, such as their music. Somehow demons have developed the ability to plant supernatural evil sounds within the music that humans compose, and they do so in such a way that an entire style of music would be ungodly. I just don’t see your leaps of logic to be supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.
Now, I think it’s fine for people to make interpretational assessments of things that aren’t clearly delineated in Scripture. I think it’s fine for them to develop their own personal standards based on their interpretational assessments. When a person presents their interpretations as absolute assertions, then I’m going to push back a bit, even if just to figure out how in the world they are coming to make such an absolute assertion.
[Kevin Miller]For starters, you need to pay closer attention to what you write. This is the second comment in which you have written things about “the Genesis chapter.” There is no Genesis chapter that I have been talking about. The chapter is Exodus 32.You’ve used the behavior of the people in the GCI as some sort of example that demons have been given total control over the worshippers, yet there is no indication in the Genesis chapter that demons are even involved. The only way you link demonic activity to the event is by using the word “fellowship” from 1 Cor 10, and then you make up your own “ability of demons” to explain the “fellowship” in the Genesis chapter. It’s all circular reasoning and leaps of logic. You then take another big leap, beyond the first leap, to say that this supposed “strong demonic influence” is soooo strong that it doesn’t just cause the people to sin, but it also affects that which humans produce, such as their music. Somehow demons have developed the ability to plant supernatural evil sounds within the music that humans compose, and they do so in such a way that an entire style of music would be ungodly. I just don’t see your leaps of logic to be supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.
[Kevin Miller]No, this is wrong. When Paul talks about having fellowship with demons, Paul says that when humans offer sacrifices on altars to idols, they are offering sacrifices to demons, who are the living entities behind the lifeless idols. These people are directing worship to demons. The demons are the recipients and beneficiaries of their actions.I agree with these sentences about what it means to fellowship with demons. In fact, this is what I meant when i wrote on page 3 of this thread, “To me, fellowship means something like “going in the same direction,” ” and “We as humans shouldn’t be traveling in the same rebellious path as demons do,” I used slightly different wording, but the thought was the same, and you dismissed it.
These people are not just spiting God with what they do; they are expressing allegiance to demons and becoming partakers of their evil deeds.
Such sinful humans are not just going in the same direction as demons. They are not just “traveling in the same rebellious path as demons do.”
When humans direct actions to demons, the demons are not just uninterested observers of what is going on. Satan roams the whole earth seeking people to devour. When humans direct actions to demons, they give the demons the opportunity to influence and control them in ways that the humans have no knowledge of.
You are asserting that people who partner with demons in performing exceedingly wicked acts somehow still remain immune to actual demonic influence upon them. You do not have any Bible basis for asserting such inability on the part of demons.
[Kevin Miller]Apparently, your theology of demonic activity is limited to either possession or tempting people to evil. If that is true, you have a dangerously deficient understanding of what the Bible teaches.What do i think it means concerning the “ability of demons”? Now THAT is a good question. It’s one I’ve been trying to deal with in this thread. What “abilities of demons” do we have explicit teaching about in the Bible? You are proclaiming some sort of “strong demonic influence’ asa n ability of demons. We know demons can possess people, so that’s why I asked if the “strong demonic influence” was possession. You assured me that it wasn’t, even though you describe it as an inescapable condition that causes people to not be in their right minds. That sounds like possession to me, but you say it isn’t. We know demons have the ability to tempt people, yet this “strong demonic influence” you proclaim is much greater than just temptation. You simply don’t have any explicit verses to support your claim that demons have this ability. You infer it from ideas like “giving place” and “fellowship.” A warning that we should not give the devil opportunities to tempt us is hardly an explicit teaching that demons can inescapably control us. A warning that eating idol meat causes one to practice rebellion along with demons is not an indication that demons have been given inescapable control. If Paul had wanted to show that demons were being given total control over the person, he would have used a word such as control or subjection.
Again, I have never said directly that believers cannot be possessed. I said the Bible never uses that terminology when speaking about believers.
The Bible does not support what you seem to understand about the limits of demonic activity.
1. Scripture says that Satan provoked David to sin against God:
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Scripture does not say that Satan merely tempted David. The burden of proof is on you to show that “provoked” simply means “tempted.”
Scripture does not explain the mechanism of how Satan did what he did.
2. Scripture says that Satan fills the hearts of people to commit sin.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Scripture does not say that Ananias was possessed and what Satan did to him was far more than just tempt him. Satan controlled the heart of Ananias.
3. People are ensnared by the devil and taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Certainly, these verses are not at all speaking of merely the devil’s tempting people. Moreover, what these verses speak about is not possession because no one recovers himself by his own choice or ability from possession. Yet these verses speak of people who are taken captive by the devil at his will.
This is not possession, but it is still captivity to the devil to do his will, which is something that you seem to deny that the devil can do to people that he does not possess.
4. You claim that Ephesians 4:27 is only talking about giving place to the devil to tempt someone: “A warning that we should not give the devil opportunities to tempt us is hardly an explicit teaching that demons can inescapably control us.”
That is not what the text says. The text does not limit it merely to tempting someone. You are adding your own idea to Scripture and using that as a basis to assert something that the Bible does not teach.
5. Scripture warns believers that they must be sober and vigilant because the devil wants to devour them:
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
The burden of proof is on you to show that this is merely talking about Satan tempting people.
We have no way of knowing whether this means possession or not. You do not have a basis for saying that it does not.
What it does warn us implicitly about is that if we are not sober and vigilant, Satan will be able to devour us.
6. Scripture speaks of people who are punished by being delivered over to Satan:
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
We are not told further what this entails. We do not know whether this is the same thing as possession so saying that it is not is going beyond what the Bible says. It certainly is not merely tempting.
7. Scripture speaks of people who are punished by being delivered over to Satan to the destruction of their flesh (i.e. their death).
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
There is no necessity that we must hold that this is the same thing as 1 Tim. 1:20. Whether this means possession before their deaths is unknowable. It certainly does not mean merely tempting.
The Bible says far more than saying merely that Satan can only possess people or tempt them.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
This passage does not in any way say that people who give in to temptation and sin are promised a way of escape after they have done so. People who sin presumptuously against God and fall into the snare of the devil when they do so do not have any scriptural assurances that they certainly still will be able to escape from that snare in spite of their willfully sinning against God.
God’s way to escape the temptation to idolatry is to flee from it! Those who choose not to flee from it will suffer the consequences of their disobedience to God.
[Kevin Miller]It is not necessary for the chapter in Exodus to say that demons were even involved. Using explicit NT revelation about what happens to people who eat in a worship context what has been offered to an idol to explain what happened on all previous occasions where people engaged in that behavior is fully legitimate and not at all “circular reasoning and leaps of logic.” It is wrong to imply that what He reveals for our profit must not be applied to other passages to illumine our understanding of what He did not choose to reveal earlier in Scripture.You’ve used the behavior of the people in the GCI as some sort of example that demons have been given total control over the worshippers, yet there is no indication in the Genesis chapter that demons are even involved. The only way you link demonic activity to the event is by using the word “fellowship” from 1 Cor 10, and then you make up your own “ability of demons” to explain the “fellowship” in the Genesis chapter. It’s all circular reasoning and leaps of logic.
Moreover, I established what “fellowship with demons” means through treating the specific Greek word used by the Spirit and its biblical use. There is much more that I could do in this regard, but I will not since you choose to insist that your understanding is correct even though you do not have any lexical sources to support your ideas. Nor do you have any Bible to back up your views.
[Kevin Miller]Claiming that demons cannot influence people in what they do musically is begging a crucial question.
You then take another big leap, beyond the first leap, to say that this supposed “strong demonic influence” is soooo strong that it doesn’t just cause the people to sin, but it also affects that which humans produce, such as their music. Somehow demons have developed the ability to plant supernatural evil sounds within the music that humans compose, and they do so in such a way that an entire style of music would be ungodly. I just don’t see your leaps of logic to be supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.
I never said, “Somehow demons have developed the ability to plant supernatural evil sounds within the music that humans compose, and they do so in such a way that an entire style of music would be ungodly.” On the other hand, however, apparently you think that you have the ability to assert definitively what is possible and is not possible for supernatural beings to do in this regard yet you do not have Bible to support your notions about their inabilities concerning music.
Again, you are begging key questions, perhaps apparently because you have presuppositions concerning music that are not based on the Bible, but are only your own ideas.
I’ve been pretty busy the last few days, so I haven’t had a chance to add anything to this thread. Now I see Rajesh has added 5 new posts, so it’s highly unlikely I’ll be able to respond to everything he’s said. I think I’ve been pretty clear regarding my skepticism of the way Rajesh conflates “fellowship” with “control.” I’m not sure repeating myself a few more times will get him to understand that his interpretation is not the only possible one. I will likely pull out a comment here and there to respond to, but I’m not going to fall for the tactic of him making an assertion about something that is unclear in Scripture and then insisting that I have to have clear Biblical proof that his view is impossible in order to be skeptical of whatever it is he might be claiming.
I’m heading off to the doctor soon to have a surgical consultation about removing some tumors, so I won’t even have much time today to respond.
[RajeshG]Where exactly did i assert this? I am skeptical of the particular “level” of influence that YOU claim demons have over people. I have never once said anyone is immune from demonic influence. Temptation itself is a form of influence, but you have been crystal clear that the “level’ of influence you are describing goes beyond just temptation. I’m not even saying the level you describe is impossible. I’m just saying it’s not clearly shown in Scripture.You are asserting that people who partner with demons in performing exceedingly wicked acts somehow still remain immune to actual demonic influence upon them. You do not have any Bible basis for asserting such inability on the part of demons.
[RajeshG]Moreover, I established what “fellowship with demons” means through treating the specific Greek word used by the Spirit and its biblical use. There is much more that I could do in this regard, but I will not since you choose to insist that your understanding is correct even though you do not have any lexical sources to support your ideas. Nor do you have any Bible to back up your views.
Where exactly is your lexical source that shows “fellowship” means “control”? That didn’t show up in the lexical source you previously quoted. Did you have a different one that does so? I understand that your position also specifies “it’s biblical use” within the 1 Cor 10 passage, but as you do that, you are making an interpretational assessment. Because the fellowship happens “with demons,” you are making claims that certain effects, such as “control,” are going to logically happen. I just don’t see how “control” would have to logically happen, especially since the Greek word for fellowship doesn’t indicate control.
Again, you are begging key questions, perhaps apparently because you have presuppositions concerning music that are not based on the Bible, but are only your own ideas.Hello pot, meet kettle. ;)
[Kevin Miller]Sorry to hear about your having this problem. May God be merciful in granting you full healing.I’m heading off to the doctor soon to have a surgical consultation about removing some tumors, so I won’t even have much time today to respond.
[Kevin Miller]I have never made the claim that “fellowship” lexically means “control.”Where exactly is your lexical source that shows “fellowship” means “control”? That didn’t show up in the lexical source you previously quoted. Did you have a different one that does so? I understand that your position also specifies “it’s biblical use” within the 1 Cor 10 passage, but as you do that, you are making an interpretational assessment. Because the fellowship happens “with demons,” you are making claims that certain effects, such as “control,” are going to logically happen. I just don’t see how “control” would have to logically happen, especially since the Greek word for fellowship doesn’t indicate control.
Paul says in 1 Cor. 10:20 that the things the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. He then says that he does not want that we should have fellowship with demons. This clearly means that the consequence of the sacrificing to demons is fellowship with them and that the Gentiles who do this have fellowship with demons.
To understand more about what that fellowship with demons entails, we must look at other passages that talk about when Gentiles serve their idols. Here are two warnings from God to His own people:
Exodus 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
Deuteronomy 7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
In these passages, God declared that those who serve their gods would surely be ensnared by doing so. To be ensnared is to be caught in a trap. God warns in these two passages and elsewhere that serving the gods of the peoples will certainly cause His people to be snared. God does not say, “Maybe, it will happen or maybe it will not. Maybe, you can escape it or maybe you cannot.”
God emphatically says that by serving the gods of the peoples, His people surely would be snared.
We know that their gods do not exist, and that demons are the realities behind those gods. When God warned that serving idols would surely cause His people to be snared, His warning was about them being caught in the snare of the devil and his demons.
Because that is true, Christians are commanded to flee idolatry because if they do not do so, they will fall.
They are not to have any contact with it. They are not to think that they stand and will not fall. They must not ever have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.
Based on what I have presented from the Bible in this comment, if you think that people who are caught in the snare of the devil will not be controlled by him, on what basis do you think that?
[Kevin Miller]According to you, my “leaps of logic” about music are not “supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.” What “explicit Scriptural teaching” supports your holding that it is impossible that “an entire style of music would be ungodly,” or is this view of yours just one of your “leaps of logic” that are not “supported by explicit Scriptural teaching”?You then take another big leap, beyond the first leap, to say that this supposed “strong demonic influence” is soooo strong that it doesn’t just cause the people to sin, but it also affects that which humans produce, such as their music. Somehow demons have developed the ability to plant supernatural evil sounds within the music that humans compose, and they do so in such a way that an entire style of music would be ungodly. I just don’t see your leaps of logic to be supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.
Perhaps, you do not hold that it is impossible, but just that Scripture never says that “any entire style of music is ungodly.” In that case, on what grounds do you hold that unless the Scripture says explicitly that there are entire styles of music that are ungodly, we must hold that there are not any?
[RajeshG]Thanks for your concern. I wasn’t able to get any definitive answers today. Just another referral. It turns out one of the fatty tumors is so big that it will require plastic surgery and reconstruction rather than a general surgery. That one will have to be taken care of first before the other 10 are dealt with. I know you’ll keep me in your prayers.Sorry to hear about your having this problem. May God be merciful in granting you full healing.
[RajeshG]In this comment, you used warnings given to the nation of Israel in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Do you believe all the warnings in Exodus and Deuteronomy apply to Christians today? Exodus 23:31 is telling the nation of Israel to drive out ungodly people from their nation, so that they are not under the constant temptation from their neighbors to serve false gods. Serving false gods, as all the unbelieving nations around them did, is the snare, Serving false gods traps people into not being able to monotheisticly serve the one true God as God demands. Do you believe Christians should drive out unbelievers from around us so we are not under the same snare that the Israelites would be under? I’m not sure how you are claiming, from the verses presented in this comment, that the snare is satanic control.I have never made the claim that “fellowship” lexically means “control.”
Paul says in 1 Cor. 10:20 that the things the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. He then says that he does not want that we should have fellowship with demons. This clearly means that the consequence of the sacrificing to demons is fellowship with them and that the Gentiles who do this have fellowship with demons.
To understand more about what that fellowship with demons entails, we must look at other passages that talk about when Gentiles serve their idols. Here are two warnings from God to His own people:
Exodus 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
Deuteronomy 7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
In these passages, God declared that those who serve their gods would surely be ensnared by doing so. To be ensnared is to be caught in a trap. God warns in these two passages and elsewhere that serving the gods of the peoples will certainly cause His people to be snared. God does not say, “Maybe, it will happen or maybe it will not. Maybe, you can escape it or maybe you cannot.”
God emphatically says that by serving the gods of the peoples, His people surely would be snared.
We know that their gods do not exist, and that demons are the realities behind those gods. When God warned that serving idols would surely cause His people to be snared, His warning was about them being caught in the snare of the devil and his demons.
Because that is true, Christians are commanded to flee idolatry because if they do not do so, they will fall.
They are not to have any contact with it. They are not to think that they stand and will not fall. They must not ever have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.
Based on what I have presented from the Bible in this comment, if you think that people who are caught in the snare of the devil will not be controlled by him, on what basis do you think that?
[RajeshG]The bolded section is correct. I do NOT hold that it is impossible. I believe ungodly styles are possible, godly styles are possible, and neutral styles are possible. My position is that the Bible isn’t clear about whether styles are one way or the other or the other. The Bible also isn’t clear about whether any ungodly/godly/neutral aspect of music is inherent and changeable or whether such aspects are assigned by usage in particular situations.According to you, my “leaps of logic” about music are not “supported by explicit Scriptural teaching.” What “explicit Scriptural teaching” supports your holding that it is impossible that “an entire style of music would be ungodly,” or is this view of yours just one of your “leaps of logic” that are not “supported by explicit Scriptural teaching”?
Perhaps, you do not hold that it is impossible, but just that Scripture never says that “any entire style of music is ungodly.” In that case, on what grounds do you hold that unless the Scripture says explicitly that there are entire styles of music that are ungodly, we must hold that there are not any?
[Kevin Miller]Obviously, Christians are not supposed to drive out unbelievers … That part of those commands was for Israel as a nation.In this comment, you used warnings given to the nation of Israel in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Do you believe all the warnings in Exodus and Deuteronomy apply to Christians today? Exodus 23:31 is telling the nation of Israel to drive out ungodly people from their nation, so that they are not under the constant temptation from their neighbors to serve false gods. Serving false gods, as all the unbelieving nations around them did, is the snare, Serving false gods traps people into not being able to monotheisticly serve the one true God as God demands. Do you believe Christians should drive out unbelievers from around us so we are not under the same snare that the Israelites would be under? I’m not sure how you are claiming, from the verses presented in this comment, that the snare is satanic control.
You are missing the main point of these commands. The idols had no real existence. When the peoples served them, especially by offering sacrifices to them, they were sacrificing to demons and came into fellowship with them by eating what had been sacrificed to them.
Doing so, they were ensnared by Satan and his demons, who were the actual objects of their worship. God warned His people that if they did the same things, they would surely be ensnared. Such ensnarement was not to the idol, which as Paul says was nothing, but to the demons behind them.
[Kevin Miller]Godly heavenly beings use musical instruments to worship God, and they also use those instruments at other times for other purposes. We know that the style(s) in which they have played/play those instruments are godly styles that are not “assigned by usage in particular situation.”The bolded section is correct. I do NOT hold that it is impossible. I believe ungodly styles are possible, godly styles are possible, and neutral styles are possible. My position is that the Bible isn’t clear about whether styles are one way or the other or the other. The Bible also isn’t clear about whether any ungodly/godly/neutral aspect of music is inherent and changeable or whether such aspects are assigned by usage in particular situations.
God has also commanded His people as well all human beings to worship Him by playing musical instruments to His glory. We know, therefore, that there are styles that are inherently godly that are not “assigned by usage in particular situations.”
[Kevin Miller]In Isaiah 14, Scripture reveals to us that there is instrumental music that is ungodly:The bolded section is correct. I do NOT hold that it is impossible. I believe ungodly styles are possible, godly styles are possible, and neutral styles are possible. My position is that the Bible isn’t clear about whether styles are one way or the other or the other. The Bible also isn’t clear about whether any ungodly/godly/neutral aspect of music is inherent and changeable or whether such aspects are assigned by usage in particular situations.
Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
NAU Isaiah 14:11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’
The king of Babylon would be judged, including his pomp being brought down to the grave. “The noise” of his viols (a stringed instrument) would also be brought down to the grave.
The passage is not teaching that the instruments would be judged because they were ungodly—it is saying that the noise that the king of Babylon produced on those instruments would be judged. This verse is not teaching that certain individual musical tones or sounds that comprised his music would be judged. It is teaching that his ungodly music that was played on those stringed instruments would be judged by its being brought down to the grave.
[RajeshG]Godly heavenly beings use musical instruments to worship God, and they also use those instruments at other times for other purposes. We know that the style(s) in which they have played/play those instruments are godly styles that are not “assigned by usage in particular situation.”
God has also commanded His people as well all human beings to worship Him by playing musical instruments to His glory. We know, therefore, that there are styles that are inherently godly that are not “assigned by usage in particular situations.”
Rajesh,
Could you identify just one of those objectively godly styles that is not in any way dependent on cultural context?
Thanks,
Paul
[pvawter]Rajesh,
Could you identify just one of those objectively godly styles that is not in any way dependent on cultural context?
Thanks,
Paul
Good question for a new thread, which I encourage you to start so that you can control how that thread develops.
I do not want to take up in this thread an important discussion that certainly would further divert the specific thrust of this thread. These brief comments of mine about godly styles were a brief response to Kevin’s comment and my goal with them is to keep the discussion focused specifically on what the Bible reveals.
More importantly, I want this thread to remain focused on a discussion of how 1 Cor. 10:18-20 illumines our understanding of the GCI and what that reveals to us about demonically influenced music.
Thanks.
[RajeshG]Okay, so the commands were for Israel, but the warnings about breaking the commands are for Christians even though the commands were given to Israel. Are the blessings for obedience to the commands in verses 25-26 also for Christians? 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.Obviously, Christians are not supposed to drive out unbelievers … That part of those commands was for Israel as a nation.
You are missing the main point of these commands. The idols had no real existence. When the peoples served them, especially by offering sacrifices to them, they were sacrificing to demons and came into fellowship with them by eating what had been sacrificed to them.I don’t think I’m missing the point at all. I’m looking at the passage itself to find the point. God was telling them that if they left their idol-worshipping neighbors in the land, those neighbors with their idolatry would be a trap encouraging the Israelites to further idolatry and wickedness themselves. I found a number of commentaries that support this view. Have you found any commentaries that support yours? Here are some excerpts from the ones I found:Doing so, they were ensnared by Satan and his demons, who were the actual objects of their worship. God warned His people that if they did the same things, they would surely be ensnared. Such ensnarement was not to the idol, which as Paul says was nothing, but to the demons behind them.
What was forbidden was the co-existence of friendly but independent heathen communities with Israel within the limits of Canaan. This would have been a perpetual “snare” to the Israelites, and would have continually led them into idolatry; as we find that it did during the period of the early Judges.
Those that would keep from bad courses, must keep from bad company. It is dangerous to live in a bad neighbourhood; others’ sins will be our snares.
If thou serve — Thou wilt serve, this will be the fruit of thy cohabitation with them. It will be a snare unto thee — Will bring great calamities upon thee, and, at last, be thy ruin, which accordingly came to pass.
Thou shalt not even suffer them to dwell side by side with thee in the land, on peaceable terms, with their own laws and religion, lest thou be ensnared thereby, and led to worship their idols and join in their unhallowed rites.
For if thou serve; or, for thou wilt serve; this will be the fruit of thy cohabitation with them, thou wilt thereby be drawn to idolatry.
It will surely, or, and assuredly this will be a snare; an occasion of further sin and utter ruin.
it will surely be a snare unto thee: idolatry would be the cause of their ruin and destruction, they would be snared by it, as fishes in a net, or birds and beasts by traps and gins; or “for it will be a snare” (u), that is, the Canaanites dwelling among them would be a snare to draw them into their idolatry, and go into ruin.
Discussion