We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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[Joe Whalen]God gave Moses a song to give to His people that admonished them about their having sacrificed to demons:Rajesh, just a quick question for you about the demonic influence during the worship at the golden calf incident. From your study, who is the first person in Scripture to write about the demonic influence during the worship at the Golden Calf Incident?
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
God chose not to provide any specific instances in this song that this took place, but His speaking of their doing so in their history implies that His people would have known when those instances were.
Paul is the only Scripture writer that explicitly cites the GCI (1 Cor. 10:7) in a context in which he later makes clear that their having sacrificed to the idol was sacrificing to demons and that their eating in a worship context what had been sacrificed to demons put them into fellowship with demons (1 Cor. 10:18-22).
[RajeshG]Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I didn’t mean to distort what you said, because in my mind, the combination of musical sounds included whatever musical sounds were being combined. After all, you can’t have a combination if you don’t have individual elements being combined. In my mind, “any aspect of their performance” also includes the use for which their performance is being performed rather than just he musical sounds. You seem to take the position that rock music is unacceptable even if the use if for the praise of God. Isn’t that correct? I don’t want to get that factor misunderstood.You need to do a better job of reading what I say. I specifically said, “There is no reason from Scripture to hold that God accepts or would accept the use of any aspect of their performance of how they combine musical sounds together, regardless of what lyrics they use.”
Here is what you claim I said, “There is no reason from Scripture to hold that God accepts or would accept the use of any aspect of their performance.” By leaving out the remainder of my sentence, you are attacking a straw man.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will say that you did not intend to distort what I said. Nonetheless, you did leave out the most important part of what I said: “of how they combine musical sounds together.”
When you properly read what I said, pitch, notes, and instruments are completely removed from the discussion because pitch is a property of individual sounds, and I have never stated that individual sounds or specific instruments can be evil.I have found that just because you don’t “state” something, that doesn’t mean you don’t believe it. It just means you haven’t come right out and said it, so in order to fully understand you, I often have to ask something two or three times in order for you to specifically “state” something. This is likely an instance where you have stated this at some point in the past 16 pages, but then when you use the phrase “any aspect” I start to wonder again, even when you use that phrase with the phrase “of how they combine musical sounds together.” To my mind, even though pitch is an aspect of an individual sound, it becomes an aspect of the entire performance when it is “combined together with other musical sounds.” That’s not a straw man, that’s just a logical understanding of what is getting combined when you have a combination of sounds.
By strong contrast, key and beat are not properties of individual sounds. When it comes to manmade combinations of musical sounds, there is zero Bible that you can use to claim that God has to accept or will accept whatever combinations human beings choose to make. Furthermore, when those combinations are made under demonic influence, we have explicit biblical basis and explicit biblical commands to reject all such combinations.This is the first time you have actually included “key” along with beat when speaking of those things which God might not accept. I wouldn’t have known you included it with beat if I hadn’t kept asking over and over. The first time I asked, you just told me “You must think all music is acceptable” rather than specifically answering about “keys.” So do you have any idea what might make a “key” unacceptable to God?
Now I’m wondering why you underline “manmade combinations of musical sounds.” Is there any other kind that we would hear other than manmade ones? How would I know if a particular combination I am using has been “made under demonic influence.” Are you somehow claiming that all music with a rock beat has been “made under demonic influence” even if a solid Christian who desires to honor God has composed or performed it?
Also, where is the “explicit biblical command” to reject musical “combinations made under demonic influence”? Are you somehow equating “fellowship” with using a “musical combination” that had been made by a person under demonic influence, even if you’re own use of that combination has nothing at all to do with demons? This sounds like we would have to know about the background of all composers in order to avoid this “fellowship.” You must have some other explicit command in mind other than the one to “avoid fellowship,” since the “avoid fellowship” verse couldn’t really apply in the case of rock music unless you know the background of composers and the fact that they actually had been eating meat offered to idols. That is, after all, what causes fellowship with demons according to I Cor. 10.
The burden of proof is not on those of us who choose to take God at His Word and obey Him that we are not to even inquire about such things and that we are not to have any fellowship with such things.It seems to me that when someone states that God’s Word says a particular thing, that the burden of proof would be on them to prove that God’s Word states it. You can’t just say, “Take God at His Word, but don’t inquire HOW something is displeasing to God.” I know you haven’t worded it in quite that way, but that is the way it turns out when you equate rock music with fellowship with demons and than claim that the details shouldn’t be the subject of inquiry. To me it just sounds like you don’t have the ability to actually prove your point from Scripture.
[RajeshG]God gave Moses a song to give to His people that admonished them about their having sacrificed to demons:
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
God chose not to provide any specific instances in this song that this took place, but His speaking of their doing so in their history implies that His people would have known when those instances were.
Paul is the only Scripture writer that explicitly cites the GCI (1 Cor. 10:7) in a context in which he later makes clear that their having sacrificed to the idol was sacrificing to demons and that their eating in a worship context what had been sacrificed to demons put them into fellowship with demons (1 Cor. 10:18-22).
Since Moses, under God’s leadership, led the children of Israel out of Egypt around 1440 BC, and Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians around AD 55, that’s about, if we round the number, 1,500 years. (You may raise the point of the 400 “silent years” but my point stands; during those years, God didn’t choose to warn his people about this worship music issue.)
For 1,500 years, no one else in Scripture makes this connection explicitly between worship music at the golden calf and demons until Paul (and when Paul does, he isn’t talking directly about music). Joshua never mentions it. The authors of Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel never explicitly make the connection. None of the historical books (including the books that detail the captivity of both Israel and Judah) make the connection explicitly. The historical books that recount the return after the Babylonian captivity never make the explicit connection. None of the major prophets make the connection explicitly. None of the minor prophets make the explicit connection. By your findings, the Hebrew hymnbook, the Psalms, never make the connection explicit. None of the wisdom books make the connection explicit. Solomon never warns his son in Proverbs about this danger of using demon-influence worship music.
Moving into the New Testament, Jesus never mentions this in a sermon or in a teaching account in any of the 4 Gospels the Spirit has given to us. Luke never details the apostles warning the early church in the book of Acts about it explicitly. According to you, Paul only makes the explicit connection in one of his epistles. Peter never makes this connection explicit in either of his epistles. John in his three epistles and in the book of Revelation never does. James and Jude don’t either.
I gotta tell you, Rajesh, that sure strikes me odd. From Moses to Paul, no one makes the explicit connection. And then Paul only makes it in one book. After 1 Corinthians, no author (including Paul) makes the explicit connection again. That sure sounds weak to me if, as you think, this is such an important teaching we must heed.
[Joe Whalen]Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.Since Moses, under God’s leadership, led the children of Israel out of Egypt around 1440 BC, and Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians around AD 55, that’s about, if we round the number, 1,500 years. (You may raise the point of the 400 “silent years” but my point stands; during those years, God didn’t choose to warn his people about this worship music issue.)
For 1,500 years, no one else in Scripture makes this connection explicitly between worship music at the golden calf and demons until Paul (and when Paul does, he isn’t talking directly about music). Joshua never mentions it. The authors of Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel never explicitly make the connection. None of the historical books (including the books that detail the captivity of both Israel and Judah) make the connection explicitly. The historical books that recount the return after the Babylonian captivity never make the explicit connection. None of the major prophets make the connection explicitly. None of the minor prophets make the explicit connection. By your findings, the Hebrew hymnbook, the Psalms, never make the connection explicit. None of the wisdom books make the connection explicit. Solomon never warns his son in Proverbs about this danger of using demon-influence worship music.
Moving into the New Testament, Jesus never mentions this in a sermon or in a teaching account in any of the 4 Gospels the Spirit has given to us. Luke never details the apostles warning the early church in the book of Acts about it explicitly. According to you, Paul only makes the explicit connection in one of his epistles. Peter never makes this connection explicit in either of his epistles. John in his three epistles and in the book of Revelation never does. James and Jude don’t either.
I gotta tell you, Rajesh, that sure strikes me odd. From Moses to Paul, no one makes the explicit connection. And then Paul only makes it in one book. After 1 Corinthians, no author (including Paul) makes the explicit connection again. That sure sounds weak to me if, as you think, this is such an important teaching we must heed.
It’s irrelevant that Paul is the only one who explicitly talks about this matter. God only has to warn His people once and they must receive and heed what He tells them. The NT has many warnings about idolatry.
In fact, God warns His people about the evils of sacrificing to demons in other passages as well: Leviticus 17:7; Ps. 106:37.
In addition, both Testaments explicitly forbid God’s people from having anything to do with the occult. Furthermore, Revelation 9:20 speaks explicitly about evil people who worship demons.
Those believers who were (and are) obedient to God’s numerous demands to be separated from the evils of wicked people would never have had anything to do with music sourced in wickedness.
The Bible does not record a single instance where godly Israelites or Christians ever borrowed any musical forms from the wicked. There is zero biblical basis for Christians borrowing the wicked music of the wicked and bringing it into the church.
[Kevin Miller]Yes, I take the position that rock music is wicked music that must be categorically rejected.You seem to take the position that rock music is unacceptable even if the use if for the praise of God. Isn’t that correct? I don’t want to get that factor misunderstood.
[Kevin Miller]You speak of pitch as if it were something different from musical sounds. What makes a middle C note, for example, is that it is a note of a certain pitch. Speaking of combining pitches is not something different than combining musical sounds.To my mind, even though pitch is an aspect of an individual sound, it becomes an aspect of the entire performance when it is “combined together with other musical sounds.” That’s not a straw man, that’s just a logical understanding of what is getting combined when you have a combination of sounds.
[Kevin Miller]I do not have anything else to say about keys other than it is not a property of individual sounds. Since it is a property only of a collection of sounds, there is no biblical reason that God has to accept or will accept music played in every single possible key in combination with other aspects of a given collection of sounds.This is the first time you have actually included “key” along with beat when speaking of those things which God might not accept. I wouldn’t have known you included it with beat if I hadn’t kept asking over and over. The first time I asked, you just told me “You must think all music is acceptable” rather than specifically answering about “keys.” So do you have any idea what might make a “key” unacceptable to God?
[RajeshG]Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.
Yes, they had warnings about IDOLATRY. Idolatry is evil. If the discussion in this thread was just about idolatry, the thread would have concluded in three or less pages. You seem to think that a warning against idolatry is also a warning against any music that may have been used during idolatry. Isn’t that one of your primary points? Yet the OT is NOT replete with warnings about the music used during idolatry. The prophets did NOT constantly warn the Israelites about the wickedness of music used during idolatry. The New Testament doesn’t even warn about music used during idolatry.
[RajeshG]Rock music is simply music that has a certain beat, a certain repetitive note pattern, yet you say the individual notes are not unacceptable to God. Only repetition of those notes in a pattern in unacceptable. Not only unacceptable, but actually wicked. I’m just not getting why a particular pattern becomes wicked apart from the use of that pattern in a particular performance that is wicked. God just doesn’t get that specific when talking about music that we can make claims about specific patterns of sound being wicked. He does tell us that sensuous behavior is wicked and He does tell us that idolatry is wicked, but you’re making a huge leap when you say that repetitive sounds that are sometimes used during those activities become wicked in whatever future use they may be employed in.Yes, I take the position that rock music is wicked music that must be categorically rejected.
So could a C note played next to a B note be potentially unacceptable to God since that is a combination of sounds rather than just an individual note? Could a single B note played repetitiously every half second be unacceptable to God while playing it just once is acceptable? I’m just not seeing a logical distinction for you to say individual notes would be acceptable but combinations of the acceptable notes may become unacceptable, regardless of the purpose for which they are used.You speak of pitch as if it were something different from musical sounds. What makes a middle C note, for example, is that it is a note of a certain pitch. Speaking of combining pitches is not something different than combining musical sounds.
There is also not biblical reason to suggest that music played in any possible key would transfer evil to that particular key, Even if a combination of aspects made a performance evil, that evil combination wouldn’t translate into a particular key being forever evil from that point onward.I do not have anything else to say about keys other than it is not a property of individual sounds. Since it is a property only of a collection of sounds, there is no biblical reason that God has to accept or will accept music played in every single possible key in combination with other aspects of a given collection of sounds.
[Kevin Miller]The OT does not have to be replete with warnings about the wickedness of music used during idolatry. By commanding that His people were not to have anything to do with how the idolaters worshiped their gods even to the point of not even inquiring about what the idolaters did in their wicked worship (Deut. 12:29-31), God has prohibited the use of any of their music by His people.Yes, they had warnings about IDOLATRY. Idolatry is evil. If the discussion in this thread was just about idolatry, the thread would have concluded in three or less pages. You seem to think that a warning against idolatry is also a warning against any music that may have been used during idolatry. Isn’t that one of your primary points? Yet the OT is NOT replete with warnings about the music used during idolatry. The prophets did NOT constantly warn the Israelites about the wickedness of music used during idolatry. The New Testament doesn’t even warn about music used during idolatry.
The NT does not have to give you any specific warnings. God already established that back in Deut. 12. What’s more, the NT does specifically warn us about not being idolaters by playing idolatrously the way the idolaters in the GCI did, which we know included music under demonic influence.
Both Testaments also categorically warn us in many other ways about being like the wicked. The NT specifically says that we are not to be conformed to this world, which includes the wicked music made by wicked people for wicked purposes. The NT specifically says that reprobate idolaters are inventors of evil things, yet you deny that applies to their musical combinations that they make under demonic influence while worshiping their idols. You have to prove why their music is exempt from being such an evil thing.
Yes Hmmm
[RajeshG] The OT does not have to be replete with warnings about the wickedness of music used during idolatry. By commanding that His people were not to have anything to do with how the idolaters worshiped their gods even to the point of not even inquiring about what the idolaters did in their wicked worship (Deut. 12:29-31), God has prohibited the use of any of their music by His people.
Deut 12:29-31 doesn’t mention music, which leaves us to discuss whether the general command not to worship using their methods includes using their music. Rajesh, you seem very sure that it does even though you have no evidence. None of us agree.
I think that Mariam’s use of the tambourine, which had a clear pagan-god use, in Exodus 15 demonstrates that foreign musical instruments and styles are not part of the Deut 12 command.
[Dan Miller]When God gives a categorical prohibition, the burden of proof is on those who say that certain things are exempt from that prohibition. Prove why that prohibition did not include their music and do it specifically from the Bible.Yes Hmmm
Deut 12:29-31 doesn’t mention music, which leaves us to discuss whether the general command not to worship using their methods includes using their music. Rajesh, you seem very sure that it does even though you have no evidence. None of us agree.
I think that Mariam’s use of the tambourine, which had a clear pagan-god use, in Exodus 15 demonstrates that foreign musical instruments and styles are not part of the Deut 12 command.
So what if Miriam used the tambourine? You have to prove that pagans invented the tambourine and that the Israelites got the tambourine from them and also used their pagan styles. You have zero proof in Scripture for any of those positions.
Exodus 15 does not in any way say that the foreign musical styles of the wicked Canaanite idolaters were not part of the Deut. 12 command. I found (in a Wikipedia article) the same info about the tambourine that you cited in a comment much earlier in this thread; at least in the Wikipedia article, that information merely stated some person’s speculations without any historical proof.
[RajeshG]When God gives a categorical prohibition, the burden of proof is on those who say that certain things are exempt from that prohibition. Prove why that prohibition did not include their music and do it specifically from the Bible.
Rajesh, I will ask again. Why was it OK for OT Israel to adopt the “pagan” music elements such as the musical scales and accompanying theory that they got from elsewhere? There is not a shred of evidence in the Bible or outside it that OT Israel developed their own scales. So, the burden of proof is on you to tell us why scales are exempt from the “categorical prohibition.” Prove why that prohibition did not include their music scales and do it specifically from the Bible.
Two other questions for you:
1) Have you considered why you have been unconvincing in your arguments over the past few months? I am fairly sure you have not been unsuccessful at getting even one person on board with you. Why do you think that is?
2) Have you considered why you are getting no help here from the people that agree with you in principle. There are many that read here that believe the same application as you but they are silent in your threads. Why do you suppose that is?
When God gives a categorical prohibition, the burden of proof is on those who say that certain things are exempt from that prohibition.
Deut 12 is very broad. It isn’t a music-category prohibition. You could be here arguing that robes are forbidden - or sandals - or walking upright. Then I suppose the burden of proof would be on those who want to wear sandals.
The tambor that Miriam used bears the name of the Egyptian god for which it was used.
[GregH] 1) Have you considered why you have been unconvincing in your arguments over the past few months? I am fairly sure you have not been unsuccessful at getting even one person on board with you. Why do you think that is?
Extra bolding above mine. Just a slight quibble — you have an extra negative. I think he has been mostly unsuccessful at getting people to sign up to his arguments, although maybe I’ve missed any that were convinced that have stayed silent.
I think all of us on this thread would not want to use music that God has declared evil. I’m open to hearing new arguments on the music issue, but they do have to hold water to be convincing.
Dave Barnhart
[Dan Miller]Says who?The tambor that Miriam used bears the name of the Egyptian god for which it was used.
[Dan Miller]If no one else on the earth previously had such robes and sandals or walked upright and that those robes and sandals and walking upright were specifically invented by demonically influenced idolaters for the purpose of worshiping those idols and were specifically offered in the worship of their idols …When God gives a categorical prohibition, the burden of proof is on those who say that certain things are exempt from that prohibition.
Deut 12 is very broad. It isn’t a music-category prohibition. You could be here arguing that robes are forbidden - or sandals - or walking upright. Then I suppose the burden of proof would be on those who want to wear sandals.
[GregH]Who says that righteous Israelites ever adopted pagan music elements invented specifically by demonically influenced idolaters into their worship? Where is the biblical evidence that they did so?Rajesh, I will ask again. Why was it OK for OT Israel to adopt the “pagan” music elements such as the musical scales and accompanying theory that they got from elsewhere? There is not a shred of evidence in the Bible or outside it that OT Israel developed their own scales. So, the burden of proof is on you to tell us why scales are exempt from the “categorical prohibition.” Prove why that prohibition did not include their music scales and do it specifically from the Bible.
Moreover, do you have exhaustive, factual, unbiased historical records that record all that every nation including the Israelites ever did so you can back up these assertions with actual evidence?
[Dan Miller]Furthermore, the prohibitions in Deut. 12:29-31 were specific to certain wicked Canaanite nations that the Israelites would encounter in the future:When God gives a categorical prohibition, the burden of proof is on those who say that certain things are exempt from that prohibition.
Deut 12 is very broad. It isn’t a music-category prohibition. You could be here arguing that robes are forbidden - or sandals - or walking upright. Then I suppose the burden of proof would be on those who want to wear sandals.
The tambor that Miriam used bears the name of the Egyptian god for which it was used.
Deuteronomy 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Because of the exceeding perversity of these specific nations, these commands were given to Israel. Your bringing up Miriam’s use of the tambourine is irrelevant to the scope of these commands because that occurred long before Israel had any contact with the nations spoken of in this passage.
[RajeshG]Who says that righteous Israelites ever adopted pagan music elements invented specifically by demonically influenced idolaters into their worship? Where is the biblical evidence that they did so?
Moreover, do you have exhaustive, factual, unbiased historical records that record all that every nation including the Israelites ever did so you can back up these assertions with actual evidence?
I am not going to let you change the subject. I asked you specifically about music scales, nothing more and nothing less. There is zero evidence that OT Israel created anything new in terms of music. Maybe you believe they used their own scales and you are welcome to prove that if you do believe that. So again my question: did Israel create their own music scales and if not, why was it OK to borrow the scales of pagans around them?
And while we are at it, based on what I reviewed on your website, you are using scales borrowed from pagans (originating in ancient Greece) yourself in your own music. Why is that OK?
Since the resonant frequencies of instruments can be deduced from the dimensions of remaining strings, physical dimensions of resonant structures (e.g. sounding boards), and the like, musicologists can use archeological discoveries like the remains of ancient instruments to figure out what scales and tonality were used by the ancients. The math to do so is taught in engineering courses, and the words to describe this (e.g. “octave” ) are also important phrases in filtering and other engineering concepts.
You also have some records like those of the Greek historians that indicate how, say, Persian, Roman, or Egyptian tonality would compare with that of the Greeks.
So again, Rajesh, answer Greg’s question, because he’s on firm ground there. All he’s doing is applying your logic to the very scale you use.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[GregH]Really? You are not going to let me change the subject? This thread from beginning to end has been about demonic influence on worshipers and worship music. You are the one who is trying to change the subject.I am not going to let you change the subject. I asked you specifically about music scales, nothing more and nothing less. There is zero evidence that OT Israel created anything new in terms of music. Maybe you believe they used their own scales and you are welcome to prove that if you do believe that. So again my question: did Israel create their own music scales and if not, why was it OK to borrow the scales of pagans around them?
And while we are at it, based on what I reviewed on your website, you are using scales borrowed from pagans (originating in ancient Greece) yourself in your own music. Why is that OK?
If you believe that there is no evidence that “OT Israel created anything new in terms of music,” you are seriously misinformed and do not know your Bible. Go and study the Bible.
[RajeshG]If you believe that there is no evidence that “OT Israel created anything new in terms of music,” you are seriously misinformed and do not know your Bible. Go and study the Bible.
Go ahead and prove me wrong. Show me historically how OT Israel helped advance musical development in any way.
[GregH]I’m not going to waste my time and allow this thread to be diverted any further. If you do not know the Bible, I am not going to do your work for you. Go and read the Bible.Go ahead and prove me wrong. Show me historically how OT Israel helped advance musical development in any way.
[Kevin Miller]By speaking of “transferring” evil to a key, you are implicitly asserting that the key inherently starts out as either neutral or good. What evidence do you have that is true?There is also not biblical reason to suggest that music played in any possible key would transfer evil to that particular key, Even if a combination of aspects made a performance evil, that evil combination wouldn’t translate into a particular key being forever evil from that point onward.
How do you know that this is true: “Even if a combination of aspects made a performance evil, that evil combination wouldn’t translate into a particular key being forever evil from that point onward.”
At the heart of our differing views seems to be the false presupposition that instrumental music, apart from lyrics is inherently either neutral, amoral, or good but never immoral. To say that human beings who make musical combinations under demonic influence are incapable of producing any combinations that are themselves evil is to beg a crucial point.
Of even greater importance is the false notion that God has to and will accept whatever combinations of musical elements humans choose to offer to Him in worship, even if those combinations have been made by evil humans under demonic influence engaged in wicked activities, especially the worship of idols.
[RajeshG]I’m not going to waste my time and allow this thread to be diverted any further. If you do not know the Bible, I am not going to do your work for you. Go and read the Bible.
You are free to continue to ignore hard questions. However, I will point out that I am not diverting the thread. You are the one that states that Israel was not to use the music “forms” of the pagans. I wanted you to define how you are using the word “forms.” Now I know you really mean “style.” Great….
So you say that tones are amoral/neutral but styles have inherent morality. My point by asking questions about scales is to determine what you believe the point is between tones and styles where morality makes its grand entrance.
If scales do not have a moral component, Israel was free to use pagan scales and you can continue to teach pagan scales on your website. But you had better be careful before saying that scales do not convey morality because that is going to cause other problems for you.
On the other hand, if you do claim that scales have a moral component, you are going to have to explain why there is not a shred of evidence in or out of the Bible that Israel contributed at all to the development of world music, much less the development of scales.
[GregH]No, you are not representing my views correctly. I will have to check by going back in this thread for what I have said earlier, but I do not believe that I have made categorical statements about all music forms of pagans being inherently corrupt. I have specified repeatedly that the music forms used by wicked idolaters in their idolatrous worship is what God forbids His people from having any fellowship with or even inquiring about them.You are free to continue to ignore hard questions. However, I will point out that I am not diverting the thread. You are the one that states that Israel was not to use the music “forms” of the pagans. I wanted you to define how you are using the word “forms.” Now I know you really mean “style.” Great….
Furthermore, I am not using the word “forms” merely to signify “style.” I am using forms to signify manmade combinations of musical tones in a generic way that is not limited to style.
[GregH]So you say that tones are amoral/neutral but styles have inherent morality. My point by asking questions about scales is to determine what you believe the point is between tones and styles where morality makes its grand entrance.
No, I do not say that tones are amoral/neutral—I have never said anything of that sort! Things that God actually made are good, not neutral or amoral.
As I have said repeatedly, there is no necessity that all musical combinations of tones whatever that humans make must be good or moral. Some are acceptable to God and others are not.
[GregH]I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.If scales do not have a moral component, Israel was free to use pagan scales and you can continue to teach pagan scales on your website. But you had better be careful before saying that scales do not convey morality because that is going to cause other problems for you.
[GregH]What I have highlighted in bold is a factually erroneous statement that is refuted by the Bible. You do not know what the Bible says if you hold such a view. I am considering starting another thread to address this false assertion that you have repeatedly made.On the other hand, if you do claim that scales have a moral component, you are going to have to explain why there is not a shred of evidence in or out of the Bible that Israel contributed at all to the development of world music, much less the development of scales.
[RajeshG]Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.
It’s irrelevant that Paul is the only one who explicitly talks about this matter. God only has to warn His people once and they must receive and heed what He tells them. The NT has many warnings about idolatry.
In fact, God warns His people about the evils of sacrificing to demons in other passages as well: Leviticus 17:7; Ps. 106:37.
In addition, both Testaments explicitly forbid God’s people from having anything to do with the occult. Furthermore, Revelation 9:20 speaks explicitly about evil people who worship demons.
Those believers who were (and are) obedient to God’s numerous demands to be separated from the evils of wicked people would never have had anything to do with music sourced in wickedness.
The Bible does not record a single instance where godly Israelites or Christians ever borrowed any musical forms from the wicked. There is zero biblical basis for Christians borrowing the wicked music of the wicked and bringing it into the church.
Rajesh, in my reading of the Old Testament, I see where God’s people are said to have built high places and have sacrificed to idols in those high places. In other places, namely the prophets, the prophets call the people to cut down those high places, forsake their idols, and turn again to the Lord. Does that sound familiar to you?
Yet, in those passages, as far as I can see, never, ever, does God say that one of the things the people were doing was using pagan, demonically-influenced music. Again, when the prophets call the people to repentance, I can’t see where the prophets called the people to forsake their demonically-influence music.
Do you have any passages in the Word of God where God takes His commands about idolatry and applies those to the music His people use in worship? Do you have any evidence from the Bible where God’s people understood those commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music?
[RajeshG]Furthermore, I am not using the word “forms” merely to signify “style.” I am using forms to signify manmade combinations of musical tones in a generic way that is not limited to style.
Got it. You are using your own definition of the word “forms” as I suspected. Don’t know where you came up with it. But I don’t want to get stuck on this point.
[RajeshG]I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.
Now we are getting somewhere! Why don’t you tell us a scale that is unacceptable to God and why.
[RajeshG]
LOL. Is that a threat? Knock yourself out. Can’t wait to see it. Let me be clear about what I mean when I talk about development. I am not saying Israel did not write some songs. I am sure they did. But there is not any evidence that Israel contributed to the worldwide development of music. I am referring to theory concepts including (but not limited to) scales, melody, rhythm, form, harmony and such.
[GregH]
I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.
Now we are getting somewhere! Why don’t you tell us a scale that is unacceptable to God and why.
No, why don’t you provide some evidence from the Bible for why we have to believe that all scales are acceptable to God. You do not just get to beg the question. Go ahead. Use the Bible to prove your view.
[GregH]Not at all a threat.LOL. Is that a threat? Knock yourself out. Can’t wait to see it. Let me be clear about what I mean when I talk about development. I am not saying Israel did not write some songs. I am sure they did. But there is not any evidence that Israel contributed to the worldwide development of music. I am referring to theory concepts including (but not limited to) scales, melody, rhythm, form, harmony and such.
You are sure that Israel wrote some songs? Wow. Do you believe in the inspiration of the Bible? Because if you do, you would believe that the Psalms are an inspired collection of 150 perfect songs written by God through Israelite musicians. Israel is the only nation in the history of the world that has given human beings songs with perfect lyrics from God!
[Joe Whalen]1 Corinthians 10:7 has a command from God to His people not to play idolatrously the way the idolaters did in the GCI. Their playing was the playing of demonically influenced idolaters who produced music under that influence. That is what this thread is about.Rajesh, in my reading of the Old Testament, I see where God’s people are said to have built high places and have sacrificed to idols in those high places. In other places, namely the prophets, the prophets call the people to cut down those high places, forsake their idols, and turn again to the Lord. Does that sound familiar to you?
Yet, in those passages, as far as I can see, never, ever, does God say that one of the things the people were doing was using pagan, demonically-influenced music. Again, when the prophets call the people to repentance, I can’t see where the prophets called the people to forsake their demonically-influence music.
Do you have any passages in the Word of God where God takes His commands about idolatry and applies those to the music His people use in worship? Do you have any evidence from the Bible where God’s people understood those commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music?
[RajeshG]1 Corinthians 10:7 has a command from God to His people not to play idolatrously the way the idolaters did in the GCI. Their playing was the playing of demonically influenced idolaters who produced music under that influence. That is what this thread is about.
My bad. Perhaps I wasn’t specific enough. I meant in the Old Testament, after the Golden Calf Incident. Can you think of any passages where God shows the sinfulness of His people by pointing to their worship music? Can you think of any passages where the prophets call upon the people to forsake their demonically-influence music?
You bought up idolatry; I’m asking about those commands against idolatry applied to music. Any passages where either God applies those commands to music, telling His people to change their music? Or, continuing, where the people understood God’s commands against idolatry to be applied to their worship music and therefore changed their music?
[RajeshG]No, why don’t you provide some evidence from the Bible for why we have to believe that all scales are acceptable to God. You do not just get to beg the question. Go ahead. Use the Bible to prove your view.
I will put it on my list but I was actually going to work this week on proving from the Bible that all LED light bulbs are acceptable to God. And then, next week I was going to do bicycle tires. But maybe the week after :)
In the meantime, why don’t you tell us a scale that is not acceptable to God. Should not be difficult since you clearly have a lot of time invested in studying this.
[RajeshG]You are sure that Israel wrote some songs? Wow. Do you believe in the inspiration of the Bible? Because if you do, you would believe that the Psalms are an inspired collection of 150 perfect songs written by God through Israelite musicians. Israel is the only nation in the history of the world that has given human beings songs with perfect lyrics from God!
Poetry is not music. I have been clear in what I mean when I say musical development.
[RajeshG]Do you really think this is “the heart of our differing views”? This paragraph here shows me that you are either incapable of understanding the flow of thought I’ve been presenting, or you are purposely ignoring my flow of thought. I’ve never once made the statement that instrumental music is “never immoral,” and when you accuse me of having that “presupposition,” you are letting me know that you’ve decided not to really listen to my points. I’ve repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said that I am open to the possibility that instrumental music could be good or neutral or immoral, but I would want confirmation from Scripture about HOW something would be immoral before I make a definitive assertion that something is immoral. I would want the same confirmation before I made the definitive assertion that it is good. I know that you feel you’ve answered the HOW sufficiently, but I see your answers as containing leaps of logic and when I ask you to delve into the specifics of your leaps of logic, you fall back on “God doesn’t want us to inquire.” Well, I feel that is just a brush-off due to you not actually having either logical support or biblical support for the details of your position and you just don’t want to admit it..At the heart of our differing views seems to be the false presupposition that instrumental music, apart from lyrics is inherently either neutral, amoral, or good but never immoral. To say that human beings who make musical combinations under demonic influence are incapable of producing any combinations that are themselves evil is to beg a crucial point.
Here’s an analogy to explain how I am viewing your accusation of a presupposition.. Suppose someone were to say that certain styles of boat are immoral. I would be open to the idea, but the thought would cross my mind that God hasn’t specifically said that boats are immoral. I would NOT be listening to the claim with the presupposition that boats are never immoral, but the person making the claim that some styles are immoral would have to support it rather than me having to prove that all boats are good, especially since my desire for such support would not indicate a presupposition that all boats are good. If leaps of logic are used to support the notion that some styles of boat are immoral, I can challenge the leaps of logic without having a presupposition that boats are never immoral.
[Kevin Miller]You say that you are open to the possibility that instrumental music could be immoral, but then you insist that you must know the specifics in order to believe that there is immoral instrumental music.Do you really think this is “the heart of our differing views”? This paragraph here shows me that you are either incapable of understanding the flow of thought I’ve been presenting, or you are purposely ignoring my flow of thought. I’ve never once made the statement that instrumental music is “never immoral,” and when you accuse me of having that “presupposition,” you are letting me know that you’ve decided not to really listen to my points. I’ve repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said that I am open to the possibility that instrumental music could be good or neutral or immoral, but I would want confirmation from Scripture about HOW something would be immoral before I make a definitive assertion that something is immoral. I would want the same confirmation before I made the definitive assertion that it is good. I know that you feel you’ve answered the HOW sufficiently, but I see your answers as containing leaps of logic and when I ask you to delve into the specifics of your leaps of logic, you fall back on “God doesn’t want us to inquire.” Well, I feel that is just a brush-off due to you not actually having either logical support or biblical support for the details of your position and you just don’t want to admit it..
Here’s an analogy to explain how I am viewing your accusation of a presupposition.. Suppose someone were to say that certain styles of boat are immoral. I would be open to the idea, but the thought would cross my mind that God hasn’t specifically said that boats are immoral. I would NOT be listening to the claim with the presupposition that boats are never immoral, but the person making the claim that some styles are immoral would have to support it rather than me having to prove that all boats are good, especially since my desire for such support would not indicate a presupposition that all boats are good. If leaps of logic are used to support the notion that some styles of boat are immoral, I can challenge the leaps of logic without having a presupposition that boats are never immoral.
You have been given much more than is needed in the Bible to know that there is immoral instrumental music.
To understand how you have been given this in the Bible itself, consider what God has revealed about what the idolaters (Rom. 1:23, 25) that God has judged by giving them over to reprobate minds (Rom. 1:28) have done and continue to do:
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents.
Does the Spirit say that unless He gives you specifics about these evil things that they have invented, you are free to say that those things are not evil? Does the Spirit say that unless you understand how something can be evil, you are free to reject what He says when He has specifically told you that they are “inventors of evil things”?
Any claim that what Romans 1:30 speaks about does not apply to instrumental music is special pleading, begging the question, etc. When someone rejects what God says, they will not get any other answers from God.
Does the explicit biblical statement that reprobate idolaters are “inventors of evil things” include their being inventors of evil musical styles or not? If you say that it does not, what does the Bible say that justifies your holding that it does not?
Regarding this statement:
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
We need to remember that 1 Cor. 10:25-27 notes that unless the foods are (a) in the temple itself or (b) spoken of as having been sacrificed by the hosts, believers are, per Paul led by the Holy Spirit, allowed to eat that meat if (per 1 Cor. 8, 10, Romans 14) it will not cause another brother to stumble.
If we are to try to apply the principles of 1 Cor. 10 to music, then, we would find not that we ought to endorse the guilt by association fallacies used by Rajesh, but ought rather to simply reject music that explicitly (e.g. in lyrics) honors idols. Otherwise, we have a tremendous amount of freedom in choosing, using, and composing music to honor and praise God.
Really, reading through Rajesh’s comments, I cannot help but feel a bit like Ingrid Bergman’s character in this movie. The number of times he demands we ignore obvious truths from Scripture, science, history, musicology and more in favor of rather esoteric derivations made outside the context of the immediate passage are is quite incredible.
To close, given our freedom in Christ, we ought to sing together this paraphrase of the only line from KISS that most of us know:
I….wanna praise the Lord all night….and worship every day!
On the light side, it would be funny to hear Gene Simmons try to sing that, because he’d have an incredible lisp with that prosthetic tongue he wears in concert.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
In his second letter to the Corinthians, Paul again challenged them about not having anything in common with the unrighteousness and darkness of idolaters:
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
God’s people must reject all the unclean things (2 Cor. 6:17) that reprobate idolaters as inventors of evil things (Rom. 1:30) have made, including musical forms sourced in demonic influence upon them in their idolatrous worship (Exod. 32:17-18; cf. 1 Cor. 10:7). They must not have any fellowship with such unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).
I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness?
[GregH]I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness?
He avoids difficult questions / “obfuscation” is his middle name
Is this thread helping more people at 18 pages than it was at 3?
Michael Osborne
Philadelphia, PA
[GregH]You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness?
It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.
[RajeshG]You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.
It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.
I am certainly interested in what the Bible says about music. I am sure you are too but it is hard to tell that from your posts. It seems that what you are most interested in is what you WANT the Bible to say about music.
That being said, even if you could get past that problem, your teaching would have no value without application. So when does the application come? When can we know of these scales we should be avoiding?
Discussion