Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

dmyers and Greg, step back and stop being so quick to judge what I said. I would say the same thing to the paedos. A debate with them is not about what scripture says. It is a statement that is very true on a great many issues.

[Bob Hayton]

…

For me personally, I became convicted that I was treating alcohol as a curse, as a poison, as a terrible evil thing not to be touched with a ten-foot pole. But I saw that Scripture teaches it as blessing, as a good gift for God’s people, and as something to be enjoyed but moderately and prudently within limits. I was guilty of turning a frown on something God had smiled on. And worse, I could justify it as the path of wisdom. How can my wisdom be better than God’s? Was wine just a mistake or was it something to be embraced? I changed my thinking about the subject and have found such a radical turnabout to bring tension and difficulty in my life, sure (just as any stand for truth can be). But I have been careful in how I treat those whose conscience’s are weak. I have not flaunted my liberty. I have been blessed and live a fuller life because of enjoying this gift of God. It is a parenting decision my wife and I have made to openly drink in front of our children, in moderation and with propriety. And I can recommend this path for others as well, if God so leads them.

Hope that helps clear up where I’m coming from. I know some will be taken aback by my directness, but that cannot be helped in such a discussion. Thanks for the interaction and I hope ultimately someone finds it edifying or at least illuminating.

Blessings in Christ,

Bob

Sometimes I find it useful in studying a concept to place the definition and/or descriptor in the place of the word to understand the full meaning or determine if the definition/descriptor is, in fact, what is being referenced. I refer to these as amplified paraphrases. Following is such an exercise utilizing the above highlighted description.

Beverage alcohol, the blessing and good gift from God, is a scorner — That same blessing/good gift from God is a brawler, And any going astray in it is not wise.

Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? Who hath contentions? who hath plaint? Who hath wounds without cause? Who hath redness of eyes? Those tarrying by the beverage alcohol, the blessing and good gift from God, Those going in to search out this blessing and good gift from God. See not beverage alcohol, the blessing and good gift from God when it showeth itself red, When it giveth in the cup its colour, It goeth up and down through the upright. Its latter end — as a serpent it biteth, And as a basilisk it stingeth. Thine eyes see strange women, And thy heart speaketh perverse things.

And do not get intoxicated with beverage alcohol, the blessing and good gift from God for His people, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit,

I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions about the exercise. Personally, I’m having a little trouble with the consistency of the message if this is, indeed, a fair exercise.

[James K]

dmyers and Greg, step back and stop being so quick to judge what I said. I would say the same thing to the paedos. A debate with them is not about what scripture says. It is a statement that is very true on a great many issues.

James K, you’re kidding, right? Greg and I were “quick to judge” what you said? You broad-brush and demean the character and motives of everyone who believes that scripture does not require abstinence (whether they themselves abstain or not), and you’re puffing your chest at us to “step back” and whining that we shouldn’t “judge” you? Good grief.

Lee,

I note that you have not interacted with the Scriptural arguments and exegesis I have provided in previous posts in this thread. Instead you just provide other Scripture verses which seem to counter the verses on my side. I would hope that you care enough about Scripture to actually interact with the exegetical arguments I’ve made - we all should want to understand Scripture on this issue fully. Not just in a proof-texty kind of way that cherry picks the Bible to find a few supporting verses for your position. It is also not a good tactic to pit verses against each other. That’s how Jehovah’s Witnesses argue - you have a verse - they give zero rejoinder to your verse and instead pull out their verse. You have to explain their verses and you are always on the defensive.

Now, I believe I’ve made a strong contextual case already that wine is a blessing from God and that drunkenness is also something that God warns us against. Drunkenness comes from taking God’s gift and abusing it - overdoing it, and violating the boundaries for his gift.

Your verses deserve to be interacted with too. Since I have already done so with Prov. 23 at quite some length, rather than rehash all of that here, let me just point you to the post where you can read a careful interaction with the text of Prov. 23, with considerations for the wider context of Proverbs and chapter 23 as a whole, the genre of Proverbs and more. Here is my post: “Proverbs 23 And a Universal Prohibition of Alcohol.” If you really want to see how someone who conscientiously tries to follow Scriptures wholistic teaching on wine, and you really want to see how they view the Prov. 23 passage, please read it. Don’t not read it and say I just explain away the text and pick only the texts that choose me. Don’t say that because by all accounts that looks like what you are doing right now - you are not interacting with texts that seem to go against your view, and instead are clinging to a couple texts that seem on a first reading to back your position.

dmyers, I was trying to put it into perspective. This is hardly the only thing Christians disagree about when scripture actually isn’t the authority between the various sides. I hope that helps your confusion.

[James K]

I would say the same thing to the paedos. A debate with them is not about what scripture says. It is a statement that is very true on a great many issues.

are you saying that the paedos do not practice baptism they way they do because they believe it is the correct form based on their understanding of scripture?

John, I brought it in for comparison, not to start yet another topic. However, even the WCF acknowledges that the scripture isn’t the authority for their view. They might have different reasons for being paedo, but catholics, lutherans, and presbos all do so for reasons not related to actual scriptural authority.

Here is a portion of a CT article written by Mark Elliot:

The death toll was seven: a teacher, her husband, and five orphans with disabilities. They were returning home from a crafts fair last September when a drunk driver, traveling 125 miles per hour through the streets of Moscow, plowed into them as they waited at a bus stop.

Following his arrest, 29-year-old Alexander Maximov, who had been drinking for two days straight and had landed a DUI arrest two years prior, told investigators, “I always do what I want.”

Under current law, a drunk driver will spend less than 10 years behind bars if convicted of manslaughter. But the public outcry after the accident caused lawmakers to call for life imprisonment as a maximum punishment when fatal car crashes are fueled by intoxication.

The national tragedy also stirred soul-searching among pastors, priests, and other Christian leaders. Could the church help solve the country’s addiction to alcohol?

Europe has the world’s highest rate of alcohol consumption. But Russia’s consumption rate of 15.8 liters (or about 4 gallons) of pure ethyl alcohol per capita annually is even higher. It is exceeded in Europe only by Moldova (18.2), the Czech Republic (16.5), and Hungary (16.3). Working-age men are Russia’s heaviest drinkers, consuming the equivalent of 155 half-liter bottles (or about 20 gallons) of vodka yearly on average.

Russia’s drinking problem affects every facet of national life. There’s the sheer fact of 30,000 deaths each year from alcohol poisoning. Russian moonshine, called samogon, as well as “surrogate alcohols” like antifreeze, perfume, and cleaning solutions, play a large role in alcohol-related deaths.

Experts estimate that one out of every three Russian men regularly binge drink, which is linked to homicide, suicide, drowning, fatal industrial accidents, and fires. Government research shows 75 percent of murders committed in Russia and 42 percent of suicides occur under the influence of alcohol. Research from one urban area shows that 83 percent of those who died in fires, 63 percent who drowned, and 62 percent who fell to their deaths were intoxicated.

In addition to deaths, the social cost of Russian alcohol abuse includes high rates of theft, assault, rape, domestic violence, divorce, child neglect, and orphaned children. Misuse of alcohol by pregnant women causes high rates of fetal alcohol syndrome.

The economy suffers a hangover too: Heavy drinking on the job reduces worker productivity by 15 to 30 percent. Harvard scholar Boris Segal estimates economic losses from alcoholism at one-third of Russia’s gnp of $3.2 trillion in 2012.

[James K]

John, I brought it in for comparison, not to start yet another topic. However, even the WCF acknowledges that the scripture isn’t the authority for their view. They might have different reasons for being paedo, but catholics, lutherans, and presbos all do so for reasons not related to actual scriptural authority.

If you give a man a fish…

[James K]

If you give a man a fish…

… he might just prove you wrong.

Sometimes…

WCF 1.6

VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

compare that with the baptism portion

WCF 28

CHAPTER XXVIII.

Of Baptism.

I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life: which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his Church until the end of the world.

II. The outward element to be used in the sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person.

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one or both believing parents are to be baptized.

V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it, or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

VI. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered to any person.

Not a single reference is explicit about infant baptism. THEREFORE, it falls under the “good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.” In other words, infant baptism is based on their logic skills, not the Scripture. If paedoism is evidence of presbo logic, well…

I must be blind because I’m not seeing the logic of your conclusion based on this information.

Or maybe it’s cuz I’m not looking for things to castigate my Presbyterian brothers for on things we disagree on. Oh well.

If they can’t appeal to explicit scripture like their SOF says, then they make appeals to logic like their SOF says. There is no verse for paedoism. Paedoism is an appeal to logic, admitted in their own SOF.