Why So Many Christians Are Relaxing over Drinks - As colleges drop drinking bans, some see alcohol as a moral good.

[Bob Hayton]

Same goes with alcohol. God created our bodies to respond to alcohol in a way that enhances pleasure, lifts the spirit - and if taken in too large a quantity, causes us to lose control. But God gave us this reaction for our good when exercised within the boundaries he intends - just like with the example above. Yes an inordinate desire for more and more, and a lack of self control can lead one to abandon restraint and become drunken and do the foolish things that go with drunkenness. But in both examples (alcohol and sex), there is a boundary and any abuse lies at the feet of the person who chose to violate the boundary.

Same goes with pot. God created our bodies to respond to pot in a way that enhances pleasure, lifts the spirit - and if taken in too large a quantity, causes us to lose control. But God gave us this reaction for our good when exercised within the boundaries he intends - just like with the example above. Yes an inordinate desire for more and more, and a lack of self control can lead one to abandon restraint and become drunken (high) and do the foolish things that go with drunkenness. But in both examples (pot and sex), there is a boundary and any abuse lies at the feet of the person who chose to violate the boundary.

(Not really my view)

[TylerR]

Your comparison of alcohol to human sexuality is fallacious. Scripture’s statements on the former are rather clear and overwhelmingly negative, though there are some difficult passages (e.g. John 2)….

I have argued, not that Scripture commands abstinence, but that personal holiness and basic prudence call for it. My arguments on the holiness demanded of believers has gone unanswered.

Tyler,

Go back to the earlier part of the thread here and read this post, and this post which list Biblical verses which praise the drinking of wine. Then check out Mike Harding’s thorough study which concludes that the words for wine usually refer to intoxicating drink:

The leading Old and New Testament lexicons and etymological dictionaries affirm that the major terms used of wine represent beverage at various stages of fermentation. (p. 3)

Yayin and Oinos usually refer to wine in some state of fermentation beginning with fresh, sweet juice available immediately after grape harvest (Isa 16:10; Jer 48:33) that quickly starts the fermentation process in the absence of refrigeration or pressurized bottling. Fermentation is a natural process that takes place when the grape juice comes into contact with the yeast released from broken grape skins during the treading of grapes. (p. 4)

Now, Harding’s post goes on to favor NT practice over OT practice and assume that NT practice included dilution of wine. Even with the dilution the amount would be around 3% alcohol content - with the vast majority of beer in the US being right at 3.2% content, mind you.

Now note this, the Bible warns against drunkenness quite clearly. So people who wanted to get drunk in Bible times easily could. I would argue that there is more evidence that the dilution of wine was not widely practiced by the Jews so their alcohol content would be up to 7% or so on average. Now, this is alcohol and drinking too much and losing control (becoming drunk) is warned about in Scripture.

But the same word, for the same drink, is praised. (See the lists above in the two posts linked above).

You have yet to deal with these lists of verses that praise drinking alcoholic wine. Instead you state “Scripture’s statements on [alcohol] are rather clear and overwhelmingly negative.” Really?? Are you sure? Have you studied it out? Enlighten us here. Interact with the arguments in this thread. Instead of interacting, you are assuming the very point of the discussion.

Harding and many like him, agree the Bible does allow for drinking alcohol, but seem to view it as a concession to the science of the day. Not enough other drink choices, inability to keep the juice from fermenting. Harding has as a point in his paper: “The use of diluted wine is no longer necessary today in modern society.” This implies they only drank because they had to. God knew their water was impure, etc. etc. Harding is not dealing with the passages where wine is said to produce joy and be a gift from God.

If you don’t want to interact, that’s fine. You keep countering as if you have the intellectual high road (it appears that way from my vantage point here). Yet, you haven’t dealt with the arguments that have been put forth.

Let me be clear. I see plenty of reasons for not partaking of alcohol in today’s culture and society. I respect abstainers. I just do not like to see Scripture misused in the attempt to defend a position which has become the status quo due to tradition. Like it or not, for many, abstaining from alcohol has become a church pillar of faith and an assumed thing we do - a man-made tradition. All traditions should be weighed and measured by Scripture. I have made the choice after much study of Scripture to follow God’s reasoning more than my own, and to accept his good gift of alcoholic beverages as a blessing. Yes there are warnings if I misuse his gift. But such warnings abound for many other gifts God gives as well.

For a conversation to accomplish anything, both parties must agree to play by the same rules and to treat each other with respect. I think we’ve gone past that point, here.

1. A number of people have consistently laid our position that alcohol and marijuana are different objects. We have stated it a dozen different ways. There has not been a sustained challenge to this position. Marijuana is a side issue, that does not affect alcohol. A few members of the Temperance movement have made the alleged connection between this two the basis for ridiculing our position. It is not accurate, it is not fair to our position: we have consistently and repeatedly stated as much. If you bring it up again, we have no reason to continue because you are obviously not interested in conversation.

-one person who believes in moderated alcohol usage has stated that marijuana is fair game too. That person dropped two or three random comments with no support. The rest of us have denied the legitimacy of his opinion. To actually win a debate, you have to argue against a robust presentation of the opposing position, not the weakest outlier. Your ability to interact with him does not interest us at all.

2. The rules of logic are scoffed at by several people. That is their prerogative. I was under the impression that we wanted to “sharpen” each other. When we are on this forum, I believe that arguments should be logical and rational. Barring intervention from a moderator, I will continue to reference these fallacies as I notice them. Use of fallacies does not advance your position or adequately interact with the real issues in our position. I am doing you a favor by pointing these out. I never (read NEVER), use your weak arguments (illogical ones) as the basis for arguing your position. I point out the logical error and leave plenty of room for you to rephrase or present a new argument.

3. Non-sequiturs….why is this suddenly a place for random jabs at Calvinism (I affirm) or Reformed Theology (I do not affirm). It has nothing to do with the conversation. Bringing it up at this point makes your position seem weaker. You have to pull in other topics to bait your opponents because you can’t (or are tired) or defending your own position. You could accuse me of doing that same thing myself. My defense is that 1) we stopped discussing the real topic or 2) it is a fair debate topic to discuss the use of logic by the other position.

http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html - he makes several political jabs in his discussion, but he does explain a number of fallacies in concise fashion.

I am more concerned with finding truth than with winning. When these things ^ start happening, the conversation has taken a turn toward winning. I will expend time on a discussion to find truth. I’d rather not expend time merely for the sake of winning.

See my post above to Tyler about wine = alcoholic beverage in Scripture. The quote from Harding again:

Yayin and Oinos usually refer to wine in some state of fermentation beginning with fresh, sweet juice available immediately after grape harvest (Isa 16:10; Jer 48:33) that quickly starts the fermentation process in the absence of refrigeration or pressurized bottling. Fermentation is a natural process that takes place when the grape juice comes into contact with the yeast released from broken grape skins during the treading of grapes. (p. 4)

Notice how he points out the fermentation process is natural. Now some make arguments that there were different ways in antiquity to slow the fermentation process down and preserve a natural, juice type drink. But that is beside the point. If you take grapes and mash them with your feet in a press to make juice, the resultant liquid will start to ferment immediately, and in a hot climate within a day or two you have alcoholic content in your beverage. Wine is more natural than bread.

Ps. 104:14-15 has been given to you. There it says that bread and oil are God’s gifts - both of those require man to take the natural product and create something (in imitation of God’s creative work) from it. As much as bread is a gift, so is wine. And as natural as bread is, so is wine.

Your argument about pot is different. It does show the limits of metaphor and analogy. However as has been pointed out on this thread, pot has a different more immediate and mind-altering affect than does alcohol. Additionally, Scripture does not say anything directly that recommends it or praises it (as Scripture does commend the enjoyment of alcoholic beverages.)

James and Tyler both - how would you deal with Deut. 14? I quote the passage at length:

23 You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. (Deut. 14:23-26, ESV)

[James K]

[Greg Long] James, where did Bob say God “created” alcohol? He said it was God’s gift to mankind. And if you have a problem with that, take it up with the psalmist (Ps. 104:14-15).

The continued use of God giving alcohol gives the impression that He is the one who created it. Do you really believe God CREATED alcohol?

You assume what you are trying to prove. By your own standards, your argumentation is faulty. You assume that the “wine” in that verse MUST not can refer to alcohol.

According to this professor at UNLV, the maximum alcoholic content that could occur in naturally produced wine is 18%.

According to this website, here’s a brief listing of the alcoholic content of modern beverages:

Beers (3-10%)
Pilsner 3–6%
ESB (Bitter) 3-6%
Lager 4-5%
Porter 4-5%
Brown Ale 4-6%
IPA (India Pale Ale) 6-7%
Stout 5-10%

Wines (8-14%)
Sparkling Wine 8–12%
Table Wine 9–14%
Retsina 10-11%
Dry White 10-12%
Cabernet 11-14%
Barley Wine 11–15%

Fortified Wines (16–22%)
Sherry 17–22%
Marsala Wine 15-17%
Madeira Wine 15-18%
Vermouth 15-18%
Port Wine 16-20%
Bum Wine 15-20%

Spirits (20-70%)
Light Liqueurs 15-25%
Vodka/Whiskey/Rum 40%
Cask Strength Whiskey 60%
Absinthe 55–90%
Neutral Grain Spirits 95%
Rectified Spirits 96%
Absolute Alcohol 96-98%

So I have three questions for those who drink.

1. Is it OK to drink anything in the ‘Spirits’ Category? If so, why?

2. What are the advantages to drinking alcohol for the believer? Are there any?

3. Do you encourage other believers to drink alcohol? If so, why and what kinds?

1. Are you a part of the Old Covenant as outlined in Deuteronomy? Do you pay your tithe to the Temple in Jerusalem?

2. Are NT believers still in bondage to the OT Law?

:)

1. Are you a part of the Old Covenant as outlined in Deuteronomy? Do you pay your tithe to the Temple in Jerusalem?

2. Are NT believers still in bondage to the OT Law?

:)

[Jay]

1. Are you a part of the Old Covenant as outlined in Deuteronomy? Do you pay your tithe to the Temple in Jerusalem?

2. Are NT believers still in bondage to the OT Law?

:)

Jay,

No I am not under the Old Covenant. However, the pattern of the NT is that certain restrictions or ordinances are done away in Christ, under the New Covenant. So we can eat pork now, we don’t have to sacrifice animals now. That is the direction - a removal of restrictions. The drinking of strong drink and wine before the Lord as part of the tithe is no longer binding on us as a restriction - we have to eat a tithe before the Lord. But the fact that wine and strong drink could be consumed - the context clearly is saying that you are to consume the items your soul longs for - that fact is instructive that in God’s OT economy, the drinking of wine and strong drink were morally permissible and good things. The New Covenant doesn’t change that, nothing in the NT tells us there is some change in status for wine and strong drink.

Jay,

The thrust of how I approach alcohol is to deemphasise particular discussions about substances, fermentation, and percentages ect., and go to the heart. Do you want to get drunk? Then you will. Do you not want to get drunk? Then you won’t. One could drink a serving of bourbon every hour for six hours in a row and not get drunk at all. Anyone who intends to get drunk will, and those who drink intending not to get drunk won’t. This is why it’s a sin to get drunk and not a sin merely to drink.

I work in an environment where beer and wine is free to employees in 40 or so varieties, but Coca Cola must be paid for. (Odd I know). I’ve never seen anyone drunk in the normal course of work. When people want to get drunk, they do and there is an intentionality about it from the word “go.”

[Jay]

So I have three questions for those who drink.

1. Is it OK to drink anything in the ‘Spirits’ Category? If so, why?

2. What are the advantages to drinking alcohol for the believer? Are there any?

3. Do you encourage other believers to drink alcohol? If so, why and what kinds?

1) My answer is yes. Here is why.

A) As I have stated before, I believe that God teaches us that alcohol is a good gift from God. The very joy-producing, spirit-uplifting quality of wine is singled out as a blessing from God. This is why wine and alcohol have been part of festivities and feasts for millennia. In Hebrew, the word for “banquet hall” is literally “drinking hall.” The verses I have laid out earlier are doubled or tripled when one considers laments that the wine is taken away in judgment. Both in eschatological blessing passages, and in judgment passages a connection between joy and wine, loss of joy and loss of wine is clear. Someone mentioned before that in the 40 year wanderings the Israelites had to drink water and didn’t drink wine. The Bible mentions that as evidence of the difficulties of their journey and the single uniqueness of it - no wine in that torturous, judgment time.

B) Since the Bible presents wine as a good thing, and singles out its joy-producing qualities as a blessing from God, we find passages that recommend we drink our wine with a merry heart, and receive it as God’s gift. The very joy-producing nature of alcohol is intended by God as a good gift.

C) It follows that percentages of alcohol can aid in experiencing the joy produced by alcohol. Now those who want to abuse alcohol can get drunk quicker by using hard spirits. But there are a few other points to make.

• The glass size shows that the different percentages are respected by drinkers. 2 oz. shot glasses for hard liquor, 4-6 oz. glasses for wine, 12 oz. glasses for beer. Each of these glasses contains about the same amount of alcohol and has roughly the same effect on the body.
• The various kinds of liquor have differences in calories and filling. With one shot you can avoid the calories of 12 oz. of beer, and also not be full of extra fluid - and still enjoy the blessing of God’s gift.
• Additionally, the different types of drink have different sensations and tastes. God creates good things, and the taste of brandy and whisky as opposed to Irish Cream liquor, rum, or vodka are all different. Wine comes in numerous flavors, vintages, varieties and qualities. And beer comes in an even greater variety. Not to mention hard apple cider, and other grains/fruits that can be fermented for pleasing drinks.

D) I hasten to add that care and caution must be taken with the hard liquors and there is plenty enough good in wine and beer to do you. You don’t need to try the hard liquor and need to be careful with it. I don’t use that personally all that often, and one bottle lasts me for months at a time.

2) Advantages to the believer. I can think of several.

A) Anything God says is good for you, is good for you. And following Scripture’s teaching to me - and I did conscientously drink alcohol out of a desire to fit in with Scripture’s teaching on the subject - that has been a big blessing to me.

B) There is a whole world of tastes and pleasures awaiting someone who will try to drink wine and alcoholic drink to God’s glory, in conscientious acknowledgement of it as a gift from Him. There are whole categories of taste that I had to explore as I became accustomed to wine and beer. They don’t call it “fine wine” for nothing.

C) Modeling the prudent enjoyment of alcohol to my children may inoculate them from the mystery and novelty of alcohol. They may be less tempted to run after the way of the world, when they see their Dad enjoy alcohol to God’s glory with a theological basis for his enjoyment. It also is much harder to defend a prohibitionist stance when one acknowledges the Bible speaks of drinking alcohol in a positive sense.

D) It can make us less strange and odd to friends and acquaintances and can allow for relationships from which we evangelize them. It may facilitate them seeing the Gospel as more than do’s and don’ts, and social taboos, but a life-changing reality. One can drink and not hang out in clubs and bars. One can drink socially and leave and not participate if things get crazy. There is a way to drink Christianly.

3) I would encourage believers to study the matter out for themselves and seek God for his will for them. I don’t think there is a one-size fits all approach to this topic. We should not be naive to the risks and social harm that the abuse of alcohol causes. Sin always does bad things to society and people, and alcohol abuse is no exception. But neither should we hide people from the full truth of all Scripture says about alcohol, either.

For me personally, I became convicted that I was treating alcohol as a curse, as a poison, as a terrible evil thing not to be touched with a ten-foot pole. But I saw that Scripture teaches it as blessing, as a good gift for God’s people, and as something to be enjoyed but moderately and prudently within limits. I was guilty of turning a frown on something God had smiled on. And worse, I could justify it as the path of wisdom. How can my wisdom be better than God’s? Was wine just a mistake or was it something to be embraced? I changed my thinking about the subject and have found such a radical turnabout to bring tension and difficulty in my life, sure (just as any stand for truth can be). But I have been careful in how I treat those whose conscience’s are weak. I have not flaunted my liberty. I have been blessed and live a fuller life because of enjoying this gift of God. It is a parenting decision my wife and I have made to openly drink in front of our children, in moderation and with propriety. And I can recommend this path for others as well, if God so leads them.

Hope that helps clear up where I’m coming from. I know some will be taken aback by my directness, but that cannot be helped in such a discussion. Thanks for the interaction and I hope ultimately someone finds it edifying or at least illuminating.

Blessings in Christ,

Bob

[Bob Hayton]

…

For me personally, I became convicted that I was treating alcohol as a curse, as a poison, as a terrible evil thing not to be touched with a ten-foot pole. But I saw that Scripture teaches it as blessing, as a good gift for God’s people, and as something to be enjoyed but moderately and prudently within limits….

Maybe a non sequitur, but these passages sprang to mind immediately as I was reading through this post, and I couldn’t help but muse “Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, one of these is definitely not like the others.”

Prov. 10:22 “The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.”

Prov. 21:17 “He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.”

Prov. 23: 31-32 “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.”

Lee, this has never been about what the scripture really says about such matters. The pro-drinkers would probably say that those verses are talking about something other than alcohol.

This is about the fact that people want to drink.

[James K]

Lee, this has never been about what the scripture really says about such matters. The pro-drinkers would probably say that those verses are talking about something other than alcohol.

This is about the fact that people want to drink.

James K’s snark is completely inappropriate here. Shame on you, James. I would hope that at least some on the anti-alcohol side of this discussion would also rebuke him.

[James K]

Lee, this has never been about what the scripture really says about such matters. The pro-drinkers would probably say that those verses are talking about something other than alcohol.

This is about the fact that people want to drink.