We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20

1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:

1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!

Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person's having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.

The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes--in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!

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RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

GregH wrote:

 

Go ahead and prove me wrong. Show me historically how OT Israel helped advance musical development in any way.

 

 

I'm not going to waste my time and allow this thread to be diverted any further. If you do not know the Bible, I am not going to do your work for you. Go and read the Bible.

 

 

You are free to continue to ignore hard questions. However, I will point out that I am not diverting the thread. You are the one that states that Israel was not to use the music "forms" of the pagans. I wanted you to define how you are using the word "forms." Now I know you really mean "style." Great....

No, you are not representing my views correctly. I will have to check by going back in this thread for what I have said earlier, but I do not believe that I have made categorical statements about all music forms of pagans being inherently corrupt. I have specified repeatedly that the music forms used by wicked idolaters in their idolatrous worship is what God forbids His people from having any fellowship with or even inquiring about them.

Furthermore, I am not using the word “forms” merely to signify “style.” I am using forms to signify manmade combinations of musical tones in a generic way that is not limited to style.

GregH wrote:

So you say that tones are amoral/neutral but styles have inherent morality. My point by asking questions about scales is to determine what you believe the point is between tones and styles where morality makes its grand entrance. 

No, I do not say that tones are amoral/neutral—I have never said anything of that sort! Things that God actually made are good, not neutral or amoral.

As I have said repeatedly, there is no necessity that all musical combinations of tones whatever that humans make must be good or moral. Some are acceptable to God and others are not.

GregH wrote:

If scales do not have a moral component, Israel was free to use pagan scales and you can continue to teach pagan scales on your website. But you had better be careful before saying that scales do not convey morality because that is going to cause other problems for you.

I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.

GregH wrote:

On the other hand, if you do claim that scales have a moral component, you are going to have to explain why there is not a shred of evidence in or out of the Bible that Israel contributed at all to the development of world music, much less the development of scales.

What I have highlighted in bold is a factually erroneous statement that is refuted by the Bible. You do not know what the Bible says if you hold such a view. I am considering starting another thread to address this false assertion that you have repeatedly made.

Joe Whalen's picture

RajeshG wrote:

Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.

It's irrelevant that Paul is the only one who explicitly talks about this matter. God only has to warn His people once and they must receive and heed what He tells them. The NT has many warnings about idolatry.

In fact, God warns His people about the evils of sacrificing to demons in other passages as well: Leviticus 17:7; Ps. 106:37.

In addition, both Testaments explicitly forbid God's people from having anything to do with the occult. Furthermore, Revelation 9:20 speaks explicitly about evil people who worship demons.

Those believers who were (and are) obedient to God's numerous demands to be separated from the evils of wicked people would never have had anything to do with music sourced in wickedness.

The Bible does not record a single instance where godly Israelites or Christians ever borrowed any musical forms from the wicked. There is zero biblical basis for Christians borrowing the wicked music of the wicked and bringing it into the church.

Rajesh, in my reading of the Old Testament, I see where God's people are said to have built high places and have sacrificed to idols in those high places.  In other places, namely the prophets, the prophets call the people to cut down those high places, forsake their idols, and turn again to the Lord.  Does that sound familiar to you?

Yet, in those passages, as far as I can see, never, ever, does God say that one of the things the people were doing was using pagan, demonically-influenced music.  Again, when the prophets call the people to repentance, I can't see where the prophets called the people to forsake their demonically-influence music.

Do you have any passages in the Word of God where God takes His commands about idolatry and applies those to the music His people use in worship?  Do you have any evidence from the Bible where God's people understood those commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music?

 

GregH's picture

RajeshG wrote:

Furthermore, I am not using the word “forms” merely to signify “style.” I am using forms to signify manmade combinations of musical tones in a generic way that is not limited to style.

Got it. You are using your own definition of the word "forms" as I suspected. Don't know where you came up with it. But I don't want to get stuck on this point.

RajeshG wrote:

I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.

Now we are getting somewhere! Why don't you tell us a scale that is unacceptable to God and why. 

RajeshG wrote:

What I have highlighted in bold is a factually erroneous statement that is refuted by the Bible. You do not know what the Bible says if you hold such a view. I am considering starting another thread to address this false assertion that you have repeatedly made.

LOL. Is that a threat? Knock yourself out. Can't wait to see it. Let me be clear about what I mean when I talk about development. I am not saying Israel did not write some songs. I am sure they did. But there is not any evidence that Israel contributed to the worldwide development of music. I am referring to theory concepts including (but not limited to) scales, melody, rhythm, form, harmony and such. 

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

 

I have never said that scales do not convey morality; as with other combinations of tones, there is no necessity that all scales must be good; some are acceptable to God and others are not.

 

Now we are getting somewhere! Why don't you tell us a scale that is unacceptable to God and why.

 

No, why don't you provide some evidence from the Bible for why we have to believe that all scales are acceptable to God. You do not just get to beg the question. Go ahead. Use the Bible to prove your view.

GregH wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

What I have highlighted in bold is a factually erroneous statement that is refuted by the Bible. You do not know what the Bible says if you hold such a view. I am considering starting another thread to address this false assertion that you have repeatedly made.

 

 

LOL. Is that a threat? Knock yourself out. Can't wait to see it. Let me be clear about what I mean when I talk about development. I am not saying Israel did not write some songs. I am sure they did. But there is not any evidence that Israel contributed to the worldwide development of music. I am referring to theory concepts including (but not limited to) scales, melody, rhythm, form, harmony and such. 

Not at all a threat.

You are sure that Israel wrote some songs? Wow. Do you believe in the inspiration of the Bible? Because if you do, you would believe that the Psalms are an inspired collection of 150 perfect songs written by God through Israelite musicians. Israel is the only nation in the history of the world that has given human beings songs with perfect lyrics from God!

RajeshG's picture

Joe Whalen wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.

It's irrelevant that Paul is the only one who explicitly talks about this matter. God only has to warn His people once and they must receive and heed what He tells them. The NT has many warnings about idolatry.

In fact, God warns His people about the evils of sacrificing to demons in other passages as well: Leviticus 17:7; Ps. 106:37.

In addition, both Testaments explicitly forbid God's people from having anything to do with the occult. Furthermore, Revelation 9:20 speaks explicitly about evil people who worship demons.

Those believers who were (and are) obedient to God's numerous demands to be separated from the evils of wicked people would never have had anything to do with music sourced in wickedness.

The Bible does not record a single instance where godly Israelites or Christians ever borrowed any musical forms from the wicked. There is zero biblical basis for Christians borrowing the wicked music of the wicked and bringing it into the church.

 

 

Rajesh, in my reading of the Old Testament, I see where God's people are said to have built high places and have sacrificed to idols in those high places.  In other places, namely the prophets, the prophets call the people to cut down those high places, forsake their idols, and turn again to the Lord.  Does that sound familiar to you?

Yet, in those passages, as far as I can see, never, ever, does God say that one of the things the people were doing was using pagan, demonically-influenced music.  Again, when the prophets call the people to repentance, I can't see where the prophets called the people to forsake their demonically-influence music.

Do you have any passages in the Word of God where God takes His commands about idolatry and applies those to the music His people use in worship?  Do you have any evidence from the Bible where God's people understood those commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music?

 

1 Corinthians 10:7 has a command from God to His people not to play idolatrously the way the idolaters did in the GCI. Their playing was the playing of demonically influenced idolaters who produced music under that influence. That is what this thread is about.

Joe Whalen's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Joe Whalen wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

Nothing weak at all about this teaching. As the faithful Israelites sang Deuteronomy 32 regularly, they repeatedly warned themselves about what happened in the GCI. The faithful leaders who read the Pentateuch regularly would also have been exposed to this information regularly. The OT is also replete with warnings about idolatry and all the prophets constantly warned the Israelites about the wickedness of idolatry.

It's irrelevant that Paul is the only one who explicitly talks about this matter. God only has to warn His people once and they must receive and heed what He tells them. The NT has many warnings about idolatry.

In fact, God warns His people about the evils of sacrificing to demons in other passages as well: Leviticus 17:7; Ps. 106:37.

In addition, both Testaments explicitly forbid God's people from having anything to do with the occult. Furthermore, Revelation 9:20 speaks explicitly about evil people who worship demons.

Those believers who were (and are) obedient to God's numerous demands to be separated from the evils of wicked people would never have had anything to do with music sourced in wickedness.

The Bible does not record a single instance where godly Israelites or Christians ever borrowed any musical forms from the wicked. There is zero biblical basis for Christians borrowing the wicked music of the wicked and bringing it into the church.

 

 

Rajesh, in my reading of the Old Testament, I see where God's people are said to have built high places and have sacrificed to idols in those high places.  In other places, namely the prophets, the prophets call the people to cut down those high places, forsake their idols, and turn again to the Lord.  Does that sound familiar to you?

Yet, in those passages, as far as I can see, never, ever, does God say that one of the things the people were doing was using pagan, demonically-influenced music.  Again, when the prophets call the people to repentance, I can't see where the prophets called the people to forsake their demonically-influence music.

Do you have any passages in the Word of God where God takes His commands about idolatry and applies those to the music His people use in worship?  Do you have any evidence from the Bible where God's people understood those commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music?

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 10:7 has a command from God to His people not to play idolatrously the way the idolaters did in the GCI. Their playing was the playing of demonically influenced idolaters who produced music under that influence. That is what this thread is about.

My bad.  Perhaps I wasn't specific enough.  I meant in the Old Testament, after the Golden Calf Incident.  Can you think of any passages where God shows the sinfulness of His people by pointing to their worship music?  Can you think of any passages where the prophets call upon the people to forsake their demonically-influence music?

You bought up idolatry; I'm asking about those commands against idolatry applied to music.  Any passages where either God applies those commands to music, telling His people to change their music? Or, continuing, where the people understood God's commands against idolatry to be applied to their worship music and therefore changed their music?

GregH's picture

RajeshG wrote:

No, why don't you provide some evidence from the Bible for why we have to believe that all scales are acceptable to God. You do not just get to beg the question. Go ahead. Use the Bible to prove your view.

I will put it on my list but I was actually going to work this week on proving from the Bible that all LED light bulbs are acceptable to God. And then, next week I was going to do bicycle tires. But maybe the week after :) 

In the meantime, why don't you tell us a scale that is not acceptable to God. Should not be difficult since you clearly have a lot of time invested in studying this.

RajeshG wrote:

You are sure that Israel wrote some songs? Wow. Do you believe in the inspiration of the Bible? Because if you do, you would believe that the Psalms are an inspired collection of 150 perfect songs written by God through Israelite musicians. Israel is the only nation in the history of the world that has given human beings songs with perfect lyrics from God!

Poetry is not music. I have been clear in what I mean when I say musical development.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

At the heart of our differing views seems to be the false presupposition that instrumental music, apart from lyrics is inherently either neutral, amoral, or good but never immoral. To say that human beings who make musical combinations under demonic influence are incapable of producing any combinations that are themselves evil is to beg a crucial point.

Do you really think this is "the heart of our differing views"? This paragraph here shows me that you are either incapable of understanding the flow of thought I've been presenting, or you are purposely ignoring my flow of thought. I've never once made the statement that instrumental music is "never immoral," and when you accuse me of having that "presupposition," you are letting me know that you've decided not to really listen to my points. I've repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said that I am open to the possibility that instrumental music could be good or neutral or immoral, but I would want confirmation from Scripture about HOW something would be immoral before I make a definitive assertion that something is immoral. I would want the same confirmation before I made the definitive assertion that it is good. I know that you feel you've answered the HOW sufficiently, but I see your answers as containing leaps of logic and when I ask you to delve into the specifics of your leaps of logic, you fall back on "God doesn't want us to inquire." Well, I feel that is just a brush-off due to you not actually having either logical support or biblical support for the details of your position and you just don't want to admit it..

Here's an analogy to explain how I am viewing your accusation of a presupposition.. Suppose someone were to say that certain styles of boat are immoral. I would be open to the idea, but the thought would cross my mind that God hasn't specifically said that boats are immoral. I would NOT be listening to the claim with the presupposition that boats are never immoral, but the person making the claim that some styles are immoral would have to support it rather than me having to prove that all boats are good, especially since my desire for such support would not indicate a presupposition that all boats are good. If leaps of logic are used to support the notion that some styles of boat are immoral, I can challenge the leaps of logic without having a presupposition that boats are never immoral.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

At the heart of our differing views seems to be the false presupposition that instrumental music, apart from lyrics is inherently either neutral, amoral, or good but never immoral. To say that human beings who make musical combinations under demonic influence are incapable of producing any combinations that are themselves evil is to beg a crucial point.

 

Do you really think this is "the heart of our differing views"? This paragraph here shows me that you are either incapable of understanding the flow of thought I've been presenting, or you are purposely ignoring my flow of thought. I've never once made the statement that instrumental music is "never immoral," and when you accuse me of having that "presupposition," you are letting me know that you've decided not to really listen to my points. I've repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said that I am open to the possibility that instrumental music could be good or neutral or immoral, but I would want confirmation from Scripture about HOW something would be immoral before I make a definitive assertion that something is immoral. I would want the same confirmation before I made the definitive assertion that it is good. I know that you feel you've answered the HOW sufficiently, but I see your answers as containing leaps of logic and when I ask you to delve into the specifics of your leaps of logic, you fall back on "God doesn't want us to inquire." Well, I feel that is just a brush-off due to you not actually having either logical support or biblical support for the details of your position and you just don't want to admit it..

 

Here's an analogy to explain how I am viewing your accusation of a presupposition.. Suppose someone were to say that certain styles of boat are immoral. I would be open to the idea, but the thought would cross my mind that God hasn't specifically said that boats are immoral. I would NOT be listening to the claim with the presupposition that boats are never immoral, but the person making the claim that some styles are immoral would have to support it rather than me having to prove that all boats are good, especially since my desire for such support would not indicate a presupposition that all boats are good. If leaps of logic are used to support the notion that some styles of boat are immoral, I can challenge the leaps of logic without having a presupposition that boats are never immoral.

You say that you are open to the possibility that instrumental music could be immoral, but then you insist that you must know the specifics in order to believe that there is immoral instrumental music.

You have been given much more than is needed in the Bible to know that there is immoral instrumental music.
 
To understand how you have been given this in the Bible itself, consider what God has revealed about what the idolaters (Rom. 1:23, 25) that God has judged by giving them over to reprobate minds (Rom. 1:28) have done and continue to do:

Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents.

Does the Spirit say that unless He gives you specifics about these evil things that they have invented, you are free to say that those things are not evil? Does the Spirit say that unless you understand how something can be evil, you are free to reject what He says when He has specifically told you that they are "inventors of evil things"?

Any claim that what Romans 1:30 speaks about does not apply to instrumental music is special pleading, begging the question, etc. When someone rejects what God says, they will not get any other answers from God.

Does the explicit biblical statement that reprobate idolaters are "inventors of evil things" include their being inventors of evil musical styles or not? If you say that it does not, what does the Bible say that justifies your holding that it does not?

Bert Perry's picture

Regarding this statement:

Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person's having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.

We need to remember that 1 Cor. 10:25-27 notes that unless the foods are (a) in the temple itself or (b) spoken of as having been sacrificed by the hosts, believers are, per Paul led by the Holy Spirit, allowed to eat that meat if (per 1 Cor. 8, 10, Romans 14) it will not cause another brother to stumble.

If we are to try to apply the principles of 1 Cor. 10 to music, then, we would find not that we ought to endorse the guilt by association fallacies used by Rajesh, but ought rather to simply reject music that explicitly (e.g. in lyrics) honors idols.  Otherwise, we have a tremendous amount of freedom in choosing, using, and composing music to honor and praise God.  

Really, reading through Rajesh's comments, I cannot help but feel a bit like Ingrid Bergman's character in this movie.  The number of times he demands we ignore obvious truths from Scripture, science, history, musicology and more in favor of rather esoteric derivations made outside the context of the immediate passage are is quite incredible.

To close, given our freedom in Christ, we ought to sing together this paraphrase of the only line from KISS that most of us know:

I....wanna praise the Lord all night....and worship every day!

On the light side, it would be funny to hear Gene Simmons try to sing that, because he'd have an incredible lisp with that prosthetic tongue he wears in concert.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

RajeshG's picture

In his second letter to the Corinthians, Paul again challenged them about not having anything in common with the unrighteousness and darkness of idolaters:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

God's people must reject all the unclean things (2 Cor. 6:17) that reprobate idolaters as inventors of evil things (Rom. 1:30) have made, including musical forms sourced in demonic influence upon them in their idolatrous worship (Exod. 32:17-18; cf. 1 Cor. 10:7). They must not have any fellowship with such unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).

GregH's picture

I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness? 

Dave White's picture

GregH wrote:

I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness? 

He avoids difficult questions / "obfuscation" is his middle name

M. Osborne's picture

Is this thread helping more people at 18 pages than it was at 3? 

Michael Osborne
Philadelphia, PA

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness? 

You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.

It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.

GregH's picture

RajeshG wrote:

You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.

It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.

I am certainly interested in what the Bible says about music. I am sure you are too but it is hard to tell that from your posts. It seems that what you are most interested in is what you WANT the Bible to say about music.

That being said, even if you could get past that problem, your teaching would have no value without application. So when does the application come? When can we know of these scales we should be avoiding?

 

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

Do you really think this is "the heart of our differing views"? This paragraph here shows me that you are either incapable of understanding the flow of thought I've been presenting, or you are purposely ignoring my flow of thought. I've never once made the statement that instrumental music is "never immoral," and when you accuse me of having that "presupposition," you are letting me know that you've decided not to really listen to my points. I've repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said that I am open to the possibility that instrumental music could be good or neutral or immoral, but I would want confirmation from Scripture about HOW something would be immoral before I make a definitive assertion that something is immoral. I would want the same confirmation before I made the definitive assertion that it is good. I know that you feel you've answered the HOW sufficiently, but I see your answers as containing leaps of logic and when I ask you to delve into the specifics of your leaps of logic, you fall back on "God doesn't want us to inquire." Well, I feel that is just a brush-off due to you not actually having either logical support or biblical support for the details of your position and you just don't want to admit it..

 

Here's an analogy to explain how I am viewing your accusation of a presupposition.. Suppose someone were to say that certain styles of boat are immoral. I would be open to the idea, but the thought would cross my mind that God hasn't specifically said that boats are immoral. I would NOT be listening to the claim with the presupposition that boats are never immoral, but the person making the claim that some styles are immoral would have to support it rather than me having to prove that all boats are good, especially since my desire for such support would not indicate a presupposition that all boats are good. If leaps of logic are used to support the notion that some styles of boat are immoral, I can challenge the leaps of logic without having a presupposition that boats are never immoral.

 

 

You say that you are open to the possibility that instrumental music could be immoral, but then you insist that you must know the specifics in order to believe that there is immoral instrumental music.

Wow. After just telling you that "you are letting me know that you've decided not to really listen to my points," you start out with this sentence here which shows me you didn't listen to my point. I said I was open to the possibility that instrumental music could be "good or neutral or immoral." I covered all three options because I think those options are the only ones that would apply that would cover ALL music that I might consider using in my life. Those options would pretty much cover any activity or attitude or even object that I might have or use in my life. There are plenty of things I do that could be immoral or objects I use that could be immoral. My point is that I think one should use specific biblical principles to determine whether God is displeased with something before they just proclaim it to be immoral. Those are the kinds of specifics i want when determining how something is immoral. Does the Bible actually say it's immoral or is someone taking verses out of context and making leaps of logic with their principles?

Quote:
You have been given much more than is needed in the Bible to know that there is immoral instrumental music.
 
To understand how you have been given this in the Bible itself, consider what God has revealed about what the idolaters (Rom. 1:23, 25) that God has judged by giving them over to reprobate minds (Rom. 1:28) have done and continue to do:

Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents.

Does the Spirit say that unless He gives you specifics about these evil things that they have invented, you are free to say that those things are not evil? Does the Spirit say that unless you understand how something can be evil, you are free to reject what He says when He has specifically told you that they are "inventors of evil things"?

Any claim that what Romans 1:30 speaks about does not apply to instrumental music is special pleading, begging the question, etc. When someone rejects what God says, they will not get any other answers from God.

Does the explicit biblical statement that reprobate idolaters are "inventors of evil things" include their being inventors of evil musical styles or not? If you say that it does not, what does the Bible say that justifies your holding that it does not?

You sound like you think Christians should become monks and live in a monastery so that they don't come into contact with anything invented by unbelievers. After all, Romans 1 has an application regarding all unbelievers. Are all inventions of unbelievers to be rejected? If not, why not? Isn't your point that the Romans one people are inventors of evil things and that I shouldn't be "free to say that those things are not evil."? 

I happen to think it is a valid use of discernment to examine biblically how God determines that He is displeased with something. Let's use my boat example above and see if you agree with this logic for determining that God is displeased with styles of boats. I think I am making some leaps here, but perhaps you don't. There are some communities that do not want casinos to be built in their community, but they allow for gambling to take place on waterways. Therefore, the evil facilitators of gambling have invented ways to turn riverboats into casinos. We all know that playing cards used to be called "The Devil's Bible" and "The Devil's Picture Book" and these evil instruments are used in the wicked casinos. People gamble away their money instead of providing for their families, and someone who doesn't provide for their family is worse than an unbeliever. What type of being is worse than an unbeliever? Well, unbelievers simply get sent to hell, but demons get chained up there, so demons must be worse. People who gamble are therefore acting in demonic ways. God doesn't want us to have anything to do with the "works of darkness," so we should not only stay away from the riverboat casinos, but also from the style of boat that is used by the casinos. It is a wicked boat style, so any church that rents a riverboat for a church service is worshipping in a way that is displeasing to God, since all riverboats should be rejected.

Do you agree with this assessment that riverboats should be rejected? The way I see it, this example uses the same types of arguments that you use for saying a certain musical style needs to be rejected.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

GregH wrote:

 

I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness? 

 

 

You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.

It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.

But Rajesh, you and I have talked about individual notes and we've talked about keys. You gave me a reminder of how pitch is used within a combination of notes. We've talked about beat. There's been a bunch of discussion about "musicological specifics," so I'm not sure how you can say such discussion is off limits for this thread. A key factor in the use of our discernment about music is understanding what exactly God gets displeased with.

RajeshG's picture

I am not going to humor you at all with your attempt to draw an analogy between boats and music. There is no comparing those two things. God does not command numerous times in the Bible that boats be used to worship Him, etc.

As for Romans 1, regardless of what applications you want to make to all unbelievers, in context, the specific people in view are the ones to whom everything in the passage applies. Namely, they become idolaters, are judged by God by His giving them over to a reprobate mind, and become inventors of evil things. This thread has never been about all unbelievers. You have repeatedly tried to make it about all unbelievers, but it is not. This thread is specifically about biblical revelation concerning the music of demonically influenced idolaters that must be rejected categorically and what that revelation teaches us about other music that we must reject categorically.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

GregH wrote:

 

I am waiting for you to tell us a musical scale we must reject. You claim there are some. Why would you not tell us so we can avoid this fellowship with darkness? 

 

 

You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.

It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.

 

But Rajesh, you and I have talked about individual notes and we've talked about keys. You gave me a reminder of how pitch is used within a combination of notes. We've talked about beat. There's been a bunch of discussion about "musicological specifics," so I'm not sure how you can say such discussion is off limits for this thread. A key factor in the use of our discernment about music is understanding what exactly God gets displeased with.

 

So what? There is a big difference between what he wants to talk about and what we have talked about. The Bible talks about individual notes, etc. It does not talk about naming specific scales, etc.

And, for the record, I only talked about beat, keys, etc. in a very limited manner and in a very general way only because you kept trying to make it a topic of discussion.

Discussing musicological specifics beyond a very general level is not the biblical way to understand what music pleases God. If it were, God would have talked a lot about such things.

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

You are going to keep waiting because the kinds of musicological specifics that you want to talk about are not what this thread is about. You obviously are not interested in discussing what the Bible says.

It would be great if you would stop wasting your time and mine by continuing to comment on this thread.

 

 

I am certainly interested in what the Bible says about music. I am sure you are too but it is hard to tell that from your posts. It seems that what you are most interested in is what you WANT the Bible to say about music.

That being said, even if you could get past that problem, your teaching would have no value without application. So when does the application come? When can we know of these scales we should be avoiding?

 

You have had numerous opportunities to engage in this thread about specific things that were talked about concerning what the Bible says about music. Even now, you still have the opportunity to start talking specifically about specific things that the Bible specifically says about music.

The kind of application that you want is never going to come in this thread because this thread is not about making specific musicological applications about scales, etc. Again, this thread is about biblical revelation about the music of demonically influenced idolaters and related topics and what that teaches us about music that we should reject categorically in the ways that the Bible teaches.

GregH's picture

You are the one in this thread that said that some scales are not acceptable to God. I just think that if that is the case, you should warn the musicians that participate here what those are. 

You can continue to duck hard questions; I am not naive. I know why you duck them. But just to make it interesting, I will donate $50 to your church if you will name a scale that is not acceptable to God and describe from a music theory standpoint what about the scale makes it unacceptable.

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

You are the one in this thread that said that some scales are not acceptable to God. I just think that if that is the case, you should warn the musicians that participate here what those are. 

You can continue to duck hard questions; I am not naive. I know why you duck them. But just to make it interesting, I will donate $50 to your church if you will name a scale that is not acceptable to God and describe from a music theory standpoint what about the scale makes it unacceptable.

You are wasting your time and mine repeatedly. I am not interested in any money that you might offer. The Bible does not provide the kinds of specific musicological information that you want about music that God rejects. I do not have anything further to say about this matter.

 

GregH's picture

RajeshG wrote:

The Bible does not provide the kinds of specific musicological information that you want about music that God rejects. I do not have anything further to say about this matter.

All right. Then I guess you admit that when you said earlier that some scales are not acceptable to God, you were speaking in error.

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

The Bible does not provide the kinds of specific musicological information that you want about music that God rejects. I do not have anything further to say about this matter.

 

 

All right. Then I guess you admit that when you said earlier that some scales are not acceptable to God, you were speaking in error.

No, I do not admit any such thing. The Bible does not provide any basis for holding that God accepts all combinations whatever that humans make of musical elements. You and many others beg the question by asserting that it is all acceptable to Him. Not being able to give you specifics about what He does and does not accept does not mean that He accepts all of it for use in worship, which has been the specific subject of this entire thread.

GregH's picture

So let me get this straight. 

* God does not accept all scales.

* God does not give us any criteria to use to decide what scales are acceptable.

* We are presumably on the hook to get it right anyway.

Got it...

Joe Whalen's picture

Rajesh,

You must have missed my earlier post.  You said God's prohibitions against idolatry applied to the worship music of Israel. 

I responded asking you if you could point to any OT passages where that occurred.  Where God evidences the sinfulness of His people by pointing to their worship music.  And then, continuing, where God takes His commands against idolatry and applies those commands directly to the pagan music Israel was using in their worship of Him so that their music changed.  Or, continuing, God's people understood God's commands against idolatry to apply to their worship music, so that their music changed.

Does this occur in the OT, and if so, where?

RajeshG's picture

GregH wrote:

So let me get this straight. 

* God does not accept all scales.

* God does not give us any criteria to use to decide what scales are acceptable.

* We are presumably on the hook to get it right anyway.

Got it...

Wrong. We have no basis to hold that He accepts all scales whatever humans come up with regardless of what they might be; we know that He accepts some because He commands the use of music in worshiping Him and Scripture records that both humans and supernatural beings have used music to worship Him acceptably.

We know that He rejects the music of demonically influenced idolaters. Because we know that there is instrumental music that He rejects, we have no basis to hold that He will accept any musical forms created by demonically influenced wicked people who have created their music for wicked purposes.

Therefore, He has given us the essential criteria for knowing what music we must not use--we must not get our music from demonically influenced idolaters, harlots, and other wicked people who produce ungodly music. We must not have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, including their musical forms. We are not to be conformed to this present evil age. We must not walk in the counsel of the ungodly by borrowing their wicked music and bringing it into the worship of God. etc.

GregH's picture

RajeshG wrote:

Wrong. We have no basis to hold that He accepts all scales whatever humans come up with regardless of what they might be; we know that He accepts some because He commands the use of music in worshiping Him and Scripture records that both humans and supernatural beings have used music to worship Him acceptably.

We know that He rejects the music of demonically influenced idolaters. Because we know that there is instrumental music that He rejects, we have no basis to hold that He will accept any musical forms created by demonically influenced wicked people who have created their music for wicked purposes.

Therefore, He has given us the essential criteria for knowing what music we must not use--we must not get our music from demonically influence idolaters, harlots, and other wicked people who produce ungodly music. We must not have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, including their musical forms. We are not to be conformed to this present evil age. We must not walk in the counsel of the ungodly by borrowing their wicked music and bringing it into the worship of God. etc.

All right. You had better get busy scrubbing the music off your website. You use musical elements of the pagans and ungodly. The scales you work from originated with pagans. Without question...

I suppose you may quibble that a scale is not a "form" since you continue to use that word in a squishy and arbitrary way. I would disagree. There is nothing in music that affects its character more than the scale it is built on (which implies an underlying relative system of theory). 

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

I am not going to humor you at all with your attempt to draw an analogy between boats and music. There is no comparing those two things. God does not command numerous times in the Bible that boats be used to worship Him, etc.

But Jesus does command the use of a boat in Luke 5:1-11, and worship does take place because of what happened on the boat. First, Jesus tells Peter to push off from the shore so Jesus could teach and Peter obeys. Then Jesus orders Peter to "Put out into deep water and let down the nets for a catch." Peter obeyed and they caught so many fish the boats began to sink. Peter then fell at Jesus' knees and said "Go away from me Lord. I am a sinful man." Jesus then told Simon he would fish for people, and Peter, James, and John pulled the boats to shore, left everything, and followed Jesus. You can't separate the boats from this account of worship. Besides this, there are multiple times that boats play a pivotal role in miraculous events. Jesus calmed the storm while on a boat. Peter walked on water after jumping out of a boat. Paul told all the soldiers and prisoners to stay on the boat and all their lives were spared.

Quote:
As for Romans 1, regardless of what applications you want to make to all unbelievers, in context, the specific people in view are the ones to whom everything in the passage applies. Namely, they become idolaters,
Stop right here. Who is this "they" of which you speak? It looks like you are jumping right to verse 23 while ignoring verses 18-22. Who does verse 18 refer to as the topic of the passage?  "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Verse 20 says that from creation, God's power has been clearly seen so that people are without excuse. Verse 21 tells us that these people who are suppressing truth are failing to glorify God or give Him thanks. We don't see the progression leading to idolatry until verse 23. Up to that verse, the passage had referred generally to all unsaved people.

[/quote]This thread has never been about all unbelievers. You have repeatedly tried to make it about all unbelievers, but it is not. [/quote]The only reason I ask about "all unbelievers" is because you use passages SUCH AS ROMANS ONE to support your position. This isn't the first time you have used a general passage that speaks of all unbelievers, or you've made a general statement that would be true of all unbelievers. Then when I challenge the logic of using that wide-ranging verse, you claim that you didn't mean all unbelievers (even though the context means all unbelievers). You say that you really meant only a narrow, focused group, but when I try to get to the specifics of that narrow focus, you tell me that I shouldn't ask about specifics. Then before I know it, you make another wide-ranging statement, which I really can't be sure you actually mean, since you've back-tracked so many times earlier to a narrower focus. After 18 pages, I'm about ready to leave the thread, since getting a straight answer from you is like wrestling a cloud.

Quote:
This thread is specifically about biblical revelation concerning the music of demonically influenced idolaters that must be rejected categorically and what that revelation teaches us about other music that we must reject categorically. 
This is an example of a sentence that starts out with your narrow focus, and then jumps dramatically to cover any and all music that you may wish to put in the category of "other music that we must reject categorically." So you're focus is NOT just on music by demonically influenced idolaters, but it's against any music that you decide to put in the "reject" category, whether or not there is specific bible teaching involved.

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