We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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[Kevin Miller]No, this understanding is not valid. The Bible does not provide any evidence that good angels have ever provided humans with information about musical patterns. Nor is there any evidence that good angels have ever entered or possessed people the way demons do.And we have no indication from Scripture regarding which musical patterns may or may not have been created by God or by angels before the fall. Some may not have been created before the fall, and those ones may very well be ungodly, but those could also be godly. Without specific biblical knowledge of which patterns are godly or ungodly, we can’t make present day judgments that a particular pattern has or has not been originally created in the same way that water. fruit, and flowers were. Regardless of how a wicked human may use a musical pattern, that use does not make the pattern become ungodly in and of itself.
Furthermore, there is zero biblical evidence for saying that evil humans are using musical patterns created by God. The Bible never speaks of God’s giving any evil humans any musical patterns, etc.
Moreover, several thousand years after the Fall, Paul infallibly declares that reprobate idolaters are inventors of evil. You do not have any basis for saying that does not apply to musical patterns. Because we know that idolaters use music in their idolatrous worship, this revelation supports our holding that they are inventors of evil musical patterns that they use in their idolatrous worship.
We also have explicit biblical evidence of divine rejection of the sound of the instrumental music of the king of Babylon, who was an idolater and whose nation of all nations in Scripture is emphasized as having the strongest occult character of any nation.
Based on all these considerations, when wicked humans in our day have testified abundantly that their music is music of the occult and is demonic music and that they have created their music for the purpose of promoting wickedness, as rock musicians have testified, you do not have any biblical basis for saying that what they say is wrong because actually God made their music.
[RajeshG]Are you seriously directing a “the Bible does not provide any evidence” toward me? Do you honestly not see how that statement applies to your position as well? You are just repeating my basic point, and then telling me my understanding is not valid. I hate to sound condescending, but your statement just makes me roll my eyes. I said “And we have no indication from Scripture regarding which musical patterns may or may not have been created by God or by angels before the fall.” I was saying there is no evidence one way or the other about which patterns are God’s original creation and which ones are man’s. How is that understanding not valid, especially when you just repeat the same idea back to me ?No, this understanding is not valid. The Bible does not provide any evidence that good angels have ever provided humans with information about musical patterns. Nor is there any evidence that good angels have ever entered or possessed people the way demons do.
And I have no idea why you are bringing possession back into the conversation. Are you now asserting that the only way a spirit being can influence a person musically is through possession? That conflicts with what you’ve said earlier in the thread, so you sound like you’re quite confused. What exactly is your point about possession?
Furthermore, there is zero biblical evidence for saying that evil humans are using musical patterns created by God. The Bible never speaks of God’s giving any evil humans any musical patterns, etc.And there is zero evidence that they aren’t using musical patterns created by God. We simply don’t know the ultimate origin of any musical pattern. Have you even considered God’s creation of birds? God gave birds the ability to voice complex songs and repetitious patterns. Even the rat-a-tat-tat drumming of a woodpecker is a nature sound put in place by God. The world was full of God-given natural sounds and musical patterns before man was even created. If you are saying it is impossible for evil humans to ever imitate sounds that they hear in nature, then you have zero biblical evidence to make that claim. We simply can’t know one way or the other which patterns have come from God and which haven’t.
Moreover, several thousand years after the Fall, Paul infallibly declares that reprobate idolaters are inventors of evil. You do not have any basis for saying that does not apply to musical patterns. Because we know that idolaters use music in their idolatrous worship, this revelation supports our holding that they are inventors of evil musical patterns that they use in their idolatrous worship.Here you go, using that “inventors of evil” phrase again. We were discussing this phrase a little over a week ago, and you refused to answer some questions I had about it. Instead of answering, you just quoted my post and rehashed a bunch of your declarative assertions again. I looked up Romans 1:30 in the NIV. it says “slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;” So how in the world is a musical pattern a “way of doing evil”? Idolaters do evil when they slander, when they hate God, when they are arrogant, and when they disobey parents. They are also doing evil when the invent a new way of doing evil. But how does this apply to a musical pattern? You have never yet shown how a musical pattern is a new way of doing evil. I’m sure you going to tell me I have to show how it’s not a way of doing evil, but that’s just silly. You are the one making the declarative assertion that a musical pattern would be included in a list of ways of doing evil, so you would have to show how it fits in a list of ways of doing evil. The fact that you have specifically refused to do so is quite telling.
We also have explicit biblical evidence of divine rejection of the sound of the instrumental music of the king of Babylon, who was an idolater and whose nation of all nations in Scripture is emphasized as having the strongest occult character of any nation.But since the biblical evidence does not include the sound of any musical pattern, then our present day application of the passage limited. How would we know what present day patterns are Babylonian patterns? How would we know the ultimate origin of any particular musical patterns within the Babylonian songs?
Based on all these considerations, when wicked humans in our day have testified abundantly that their music is music of the occult and is demonic music and that they have created their music for the purpose of promoting wickedness, as rock musicians have testified, you do not have any biblical basis for saying that what they say is wrong because actually God made their music.I wouldn’t say they are wrong when they claim their music is designed to promote wickedness. Wicked people can use all sorts of things, good and bad, in the promotion of wickedness. The composite package of their music is absolutely wicked, and I have never said, in any thread, that God has made the composite package of any wicked composer’s music. What I am questioning is the assertion that a specific musical pattern should be characterized as evil due to it’s “demonic origin” when the historical record of the origin any any particular pattern in unavailable to humans. God hasn’t given us that revelation. God certainly didn’t bypass the inspired writers of Scripture to give that revelation to rock musicians.
[Kevin Miller]No, because the Bible is sufficient, this explicit revelation about the music of an idolater in the nation that is the most strongly tied to the occult in Scripture tells us that God rejects the music of idolaters who are involved in the occult. Unless you provide explicit Bible evidence to the contrary that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of any music created by or used by idolaters or practitioners of the occult, this passage (and others such as Deut. 12:30-31) establishes that the biblical position is that God rejects their music and wants us to reject it categorically.But since the biblical evidence does not include the sound of any musical pattern, then our present day application of the passage limited. How would we know what present day patterns are Babylonian patterns? How would we know the ultimate origin of any particular musical patterns within the Babylonian songs?
It is illegitimate to suggest or imply that somehow by some unknown means God approves of some of their music even though the Bible does not ever say that He does. The Bible is the standard, and had God wanted us to believe that their music is acceptable to Him even though they are wicked people involved in wicked practices, He would have told us so. He has not done so anywhere in the Bible, which proves that their music is not acceptable to Him.
The Bible standard is that we must examine all things carefully and hold fast to those things which are good: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Unless you can prove from the Bible that the music of idolaters or of practitioners of the occult is acceptable to God and therefore good in His sight, it is to be rejected categorically.
Do you have any Bible evidence that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of music of idolaters or practitioners of the occult? Without such evidence, you have no legitimate basis to suggest or assert that their music is or might be good music that is acceptable to God.
[RajeshG]You wrote four paragraphs, and you never once answered the question in the section you quoted. I asked “How would we know what present day patterns are Babylonian patterns?” I want to abstain from using those patterns due to God’s hatred of them. I’m not saying those patterns are acceptable to God, so I shouldn’t have to find some Bible passage that says they are acceptable. That hasn’t been my point, so why should I have to find verses that support that? I want to reject the Babylonian patterns.No, because the Bible is sufficient, this explicit revelation about the music of an idolater in the nation that is the most strongly tied to the occult in Scripture tells us that God rejects the music of idolaters who are involved in the occult. Unless you provide explicit Bible evidence to the contrary that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of any music created by or used by idolaters or practitioners of the occult, this passage (and others such as Deut. 12:30-31) establishes that the biblical position is that God rejects their music and wants us to reject it categorically.
It is illegitimate to suggest or imply that somehow by some unknown means God approves of some of their music even though the Bible does not ever say that He does. The Bible is the standard, and had God wanted us to believe that their music is acceptable to Him even though they are wicked people involved in wicked practices, He would have told us so. He has not done so anywhere in the Bible, which proves that their music is not acceptable to Him.
The Bible standard is that we must examine all things carefully and hold fast to those things which are good: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Unless you can prove from the Bible that the music of idolaters or of practitioners of the occult is acceptable to God and therefore good in His sight, it is to be rejected categorically.
Do you have any Bible evidence that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of music of idolaters or practitioners of the occult? Without such evidence, you have no legitimate basis to suggest or assert that their music is or might be good music that is acceptable to God.
I see you decided to completely ignore my comment in my last paragraph. I said “What I am questioning is the assertion that a specific musical pattern should be characterized as evil due to it’s “demonic origin” when the historical record of the origin any any particular pattern in unavailable to humans. God hasn’t given us that revelation.” Do you have any Biblical evidence that God tells us to reject something without giving us a knowable standard to use in determining that rejection? If “demonic origin” is the standard for rejection, then we would have to somehow know the fact of the demonic origin, not just the fact of someone’s evil use.
If “evil use” is the standard you are now proposing, then you would have to start looking well past music for things that God does not accept. Wouldn’t you? Why would the focus just be on music, when idolaters use so many other things in the course of their idolatry? Do you have any Bible evidence that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of clothing styles of idolaters or practitioners of the occult? Do you realize how many rock musicians have worn jeans? Why would any God-honoring Christian wear jeans in worship of God? Right? Do you have any Bible evidence that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of jewelry styles of idolaters or practitioners of the occult? The Israelites used earrings to make the golden calf. Surely that demonic connection makes earrings and any other body piercing totally off limits for people worshipping God. Right? God’s disapproval of idolatrous practices would also extend to, well, worship practices, wouldn’t it? Idolaters bow down to their false gods, but surely they don’t use God-honoring bows to worship evil. Their bowing styles would be evil bowing styles that believers should refrain from doing. Do you have any Bible evidence that shows that God has ever accepted or approved of bowing styles of idolaters or practitioners of the occult?
Is your position consistent in rejecting all aspects of idolatry and occult practice? You brought up the “Bible standard” in I Thess 5:21 “that we must examine all things carefully and hold fast to those things which are good.” These other aspects of idolatrous worship wouldn’t be good things, would they? What Biblical reason do you have for focusing just on music when idolatry includes so much more than music?
[Kevin Miller]I have answered your question multiple times, but you refuse to accept God’s answer to your question. His answer is not that you know the musical specifics about patterns that He rejects. His answer has been given to you in many passages, especially Deut. 12, which I am going to again quote to you:You wrote four paragraphs, and you never once answered the question in the section you quoted. I asked “How would we know what present day patterns are Babylonian patterns?” I want to abstain from using those patterns due to God’s hatred of them. I’m not saying those patterns are acceptable to God, so I shouldn’t have to find some Bible passage that says they are acceptable. That hasn’t been my point, so why should I have to find verses that support that? I want to reject the Babylonian patterns.
Deuteronomy 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
You keep demanding answers to questions about things that God says you are not supposed to have anything to do with them. God has told us that we are not to enquire about *how* idolaters and practitioners of the occult engage in their practices. By persisting in demanding explanations about their evil practices, in effect, you thereby say that God is wrong, and that we can and must examine and investigate what these evil people do and find out what their practices are so that we can borrow things from them and use them in our worship.
You are not going to get any specific information about idolatrous/occult Babylonian musical patterns because no one living today has any access to that information in a legitimate way. The people who engaged in these wicked practices were in contact with demons. Demons know what those patterns were and are able to influence humans today to reproduce them or produce similar patterns that the demons know are unacceptable to God.
Although the demons know such things and can do so such things, we do not have any God-authorized and approved ways of knowing that demons have reproduced such Babylonian patterns in the music of evil people in our day. Note carefully that I am not asserting that any specific music in our day is the same music as was that of the Babylonian idolaters/practitioners of the occult—I am not humanly able to know that information with any certainty. I am only saying that demons are able to influence humans to produce those same patterns or similar evil patterns in our day.
The biblical way to reject such things in our day is to reject borrowing any and all such things from people who engage in forbidden practices that put them into contact with demons. Because God has specifically singled out their music for explicit mention and condemnation in His Word, we know that the music of such people is categorically off-limits for us.
If you choose not to accept God’s answer from passages such as Deut. 12, Eph. 5, etc., I do not have any other answers for you.
[RajeshG]You keep ignoring what I have specifically said. I DON’T WANT TO USE THEM IN MY WORSHIP. Why do you think my desire to have an understandable application is a wish to use unacceptable music? If it is against God’s rules to understand whether something has been used in the occult, then how can I reject that something?You keep demanding answers to questions about things that God says you are not supposed to have anything to do with them. God has told us that we are not to enquire about *how* idolaters and practitioners of the occult engage in their practices. By persisting in demanding explanations about their evil practices, in effect, you thereby say that God is wrong, and that we can and must examine and investigate what these evil people do and find out what their practices are so that we can borrow things from them and use them in our worship.
[Kevin Miller]It is not against God’s rules to understand whether something has been used in the occult. He prohibits going to the practitioners of the occult themselves or to people who have borrowed from them and studying their practices, sampling their products, borrowing from them etc.You keep ignoring what I have specifically said. I DON’T WANT TO USE THEM IN MY WORSHIP. Why do you think my desire to have an understandable application is a wish to use unacceptable music? If it is against God’s rules to understand whether something has been used in the occult, then how can I reject that something?
In addition to clear commands from God that we are not to have anything to do with things of the occult, God has provided clear direction that for Christians to heed the testimonies of unbelieving authorities who decry ungodly practices of evil people is biblical:
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
The apostle Paul here cites the testimony of an unbelieving prophet of the Cretians who testified to their wickedness. Based on the truth of that testimony, Paul commanded Titus to rebuke people sharply about such things so that they would be sound in the faith.
We have numerous testimonies from unbelievers about the occult character of rock music. We also have testimonies from people who have been saved out of certain occult backgrounds who have verified that rock music is music of the occult.
Based on this evidence and following Pauline example to heed such valid testimonies, Christians who desire to please God have full justification for categorically rejecting all such music and not having anything to do with it.
[RajeshG]You’re saying two opposite things with these paragraphs. I never suggested going to practitioners of the occult. That seems to be what you are doing. You believe rock musicians are practitioners of the occult, yet you go to them for information about the practices to reject. In the first paragraph, you say going to them is prohibited, but in the second paragraph, you say going to them is biblical. How can it be both?It is not against God’s rules to understand whether something has been used in the occult. He prohibits going to the practitioners of the occult themselves or to people who have borrowed from them and studying their practices, sampling their products, borrowing from them etc.
In addition to clear commands from God that we are not to have anything to do with things of the occult, God has provided clear direction that for Christians to heed the testimonies of unbelieving authorities who decry ungodly practices of evil people is biblical:
[Kevin Miller]I’m not saying two opposite things at all.You’re saying two opposite things with these paragraphs. I never suggested going to practitioners of the occult. That seems to be what you are doing. You believe rock musicians are practitioners of the occult, yet you go to them for information about the practices to reject. In the first paragraph, you say going to them is prohibited, but in the second paragraph, you say going to them is biblical. How can it be both?
By using historical information about statements from people, it should be abundantly clear that I am not going to practitioners of evil for anything. I did not solicit any of their testimonies or go to them and observe and study them, etc to obtain those testimonies. Their statements are historical facts that anybody can access without having to have any contact directly with them or with any of their practices.
Furthermore, accessing testimonies from believers who prior to salvation were involved in the occult and have testified to the occult nature of rock music is fully in keeping with biblical statements where believers have borne testimony to the evil of the activities that they engaged in prior to their salvation.
[RajeshG]Whatever the testimonies may be, one still has to support the idea that an evil use by an evil person would forever disqualify an object or a pattern from being used in a righteous way. That idea of second-hand evil is not supported by any of the verses you’ve given in this thread. In Duet 12, God told the Israelites to destroy all the altars upon which false gods were served, but He didn’t tell the Israelites that rocks could no longer be used in Israelite altars since they had been used in connection with false worship. Eph 5:21 tells us not to take part in unfruitful works of darkness, so if sexual immorality or idolatry is taking place, we are not to take part in the immorality or idolatry. The verse doesn’t say that beds are permanently evil since they are used in sexual immorality. The verse certainly doesn’t say musical patterns are permanently evil simply due to being used during immorality or idolatry.I’m not saying two opposite things at all.
By using historical information about statements from people, it should be abundantly clear that I am not going to practitioners of evil for anything. I did not solicit any of their testimonies or go to them and observe and study them, etc to obtain those testimonies. Their statements are historical facts that anybody can access without having to have any contact directly with them or with any of their practices.
Furthermore, accessing testimonies from believers who prior to salvation were involved in the occult and have testified to the occult nature of rock music is fully in keeping with biblical statements where believers have borne testimony to the evil of the activities that they engaged in prior to their salvation.
[Kevin Miller]You do not have any biblical basis to dismiss the evidence of the testimonies as if they were all inherently false or inherently not credible. When people testify that something used in occult practices is evil and demonic, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that it is not (cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).Whatever the testimonies may be, one still has to support the idea that an evil use by an evil person would forever disqualify an object or a pattern from being used in a righteous way. That idea of second-hand evil is not supported by any of the verses you’ve given in this thread. In Duet 12, God told the Israelites to destroy all the altars upon which false gods were served, but He didn’t tell the Israelites that rocks could no longer be used in Israelite altars since they had been used in connection with false worship. Eph 5:21 tells us not to take part in unfruitful works of darkness, so if sexual immorality or idolatry is taking place, we are not to take part in the immorality or idolatry. The verse doesn’t say that beds are permanently evil since they are used in sexual immorality. The verse certainly doesn’t say musical patterns are permanently evil simply due to being used during immorality or idolatry.
Comparing musical patterns to rocks is illegitimate because rocks occur naturally; if you are asserting that the specific patterns used by occult practitioners occur naturally apart from any connection to any human or demonic agency or you are asserting that they were created by God, prove it.
The bottom line is that you do not have any biblical basis to establish that musical patterns used by occult practitioners are good and acceptable to God. You also do not have any biblical basis for asserting that God permits Christians’ borrowing the musical patterns of practitioners of the occult or approves of their ever doing so.
[RajeshG]I wasn’t dismissing the testimony. The rock musicians certainly would be telling the truth if they use their music in an occult way and then admit that they do so. What i said was “Whatever the testimonies may be, one still has to support the idea that an evil use by an evil person would forever disqualify an object or a pattern from being used in a righteous way.” I think it is legitimate to say that a good thing can be used in an evil was without the thing becoming forever evil itself. The trick is in trying to figure out whether something starts out good or evil, and such determinations are quite often beyond our human ability. We simply can’t make a definitive assertion about something that is beyond our human ability to know.You do not have any biblical basis to dismiss the evidence of the testimonies as if they were all inherently false or inherently not credible. When people testify that something used in occult practices is evil and demonic, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that it is not (cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).
Comparing musical patterns to rocks is illegitimate because rocks occur naturally; if you are asserting that the specific patterns used by occult practitioners occur naturally apart from any connection to any human or demonic agency or you are asserting that they were created by God, prove it.I already showed how many musical patterns would have occurred in nature before man was even created. Are you asserting that birds, and the rest of the natural world, were completely silent before man arrived on the scene? Are you asserting that you have divine revelation telling you which specific patterns came directly from the human mind and which were copied from nature? I’m not saying that all possible patterns were copied from nature. I’m saying that for the purpose of our present-day application, we have no way of knowing which patterns were and which weren’t. You still haven’t proven biblically that an evil use forever disqualifies something from ever being used in a righteous way.
The bottom line is that you do not have any biblical basis to establish that musical patterns used by occult practitioners are good and acceptable to God. You also do not have any biblical basis for asserting that God permits Christians’ borrowing the musical patterns of practitioners of the occult or approves of their ever doing so.And you haven’t given any biblical basis to say that musical patterns are evil when they are NOT being used by an occult practitioner. You haven’t shown who is borrowing from whom when it comes to the origin of a musical pattern. Oh, I’m sure there is some unknowable group of occult practitioners who at some unknowable time in the distant past has produced an unknowable musical pattern that has an unknowable supernatural meaning. All those unknowable factors make it practically impossible to make a definitive assertion about any particular musical pattern needing to be rejected as evil.
[Kevin Miller]The testimonies from rock musicians are not limited to their “telling the truth” that they merely have used their music in an occult way. They have testified that the music itself was evil, not just that they used it for evil. They have said that it was demonic, that it was the music of the devil.I wasn’t dismissing the testimony. The rock musicians certainly would be telling the truth if they use their music in an occult way and then admit that they do so.
If you want to maintain that they are wrong, you have to prove that they were wrong about what they said about that music.
They have also testified that demons influenced them to produce their music, which is not the same thing at all as saying that they merely as evil humans used the music in an occult way. Again, if you want to assert that their testimonies of such demonic influence are not legitimate, you have to prove why they are not legitimate.
[Kevin Miller]
What i said was “Whatever the testimonies may be, one still has to support the idea that an evil use by an evil person would forever disqualify an object or a pattern from being used in a righteous way.” I think it is legitimate to say that a good thing can be used in an evil was without the thing becoming forever evil itself.
The NT provides definitive evidence that something used for evil by evil people was destroyed and not reused “in a righteous way”:
Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
In fact, this account specifically concerns those who prior to their salvation were involved in occult practices, but following their salvation they destroyed their occult books. The materials that those books were written on were very valuable; they could have been sold “as is” for a lot of money or “scrubbed” of their contents and reused. The former practitioners of the occult, however, did not do either of those things—they burned their magic books!
Because this is a NT account of what Christians did with objects that they themselves had previously used in wicked occult practices about which they had firsthand knowledge, this passage definitively establishes what Christians are to believe about what should be done with such things. If, in spite of this explicit revelation, you still want to maintain that something used for occult practices could still be used for a righteous purpose, you have the burden of providing explicit biblical evidence for when Christians ever did such a thing or for where the Bible authorizes any such reuse “in a righteous way.”
Of course, you are completely unable to provide any such evidence because there is no biblical evidence that God’s people have ever righteously done such a thing with wicked things of the occult. I exhort you to submit yourself to divine revelation and accept that the Bible teaches definitively that it is unrighteous for Christians to borrow anything from practitioners of the occult to incorporate it into Christian worship.
https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/10/kanye-west-considered-quitting-rap-…
https://www.dailywire.com/news/radically-saved-kanye-called-rap-the-dev…
https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/10/22/kanye-admitted-rap-music-is-of-the-…
As a new convert, Kanye West somehow thought that the music that he had been producing was “the devil’s music” (cf. 23:39 in the video in the first two links) and was going to stop producing it. In that respect, his conversion experience is somewhat similar to the new believers spoken of in Acts 19 who burned their magic books soon after they were converted.
It would be interesting to learn how and why he came to that persuasion before being influenced, apparently at least to some extent, to change his view.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Rajesh (or others that may know), has Kanye stopped the sale of all of his previous sinful music? Not sure if he can do that or if the rights technically belong to the record label but I personally would not speak of him as being converted as you have until I see some type of biblical repentance. Also, it’s in his best interest to talk about his “devil music” since evangeliscals will eat it up.
[josh p]Josh,Rajesh (or others that may know), has Kanye stopped the sale of all of his previous sinful music? Not sure if he can do that or if the rights technically belong to the record label but I personally would not speak of him as being converted as you have until I see some type of biblical repentance. Also, it’s in his best interest to talk about his “devil music” since evangeliscals will eat it up.
I do not know anything more about this matter than what these links provide. Had I spoken of him as merely one who professes to have been saved, there would have been those who would have reproached me for doubting the reality of his salvation.
In any case, I agree that there must be fruits of repentance in the life of any truly converted person. We will have to wait and see how things develop in his life.
As I read what Kanye said and heard what he recently produced, it appears that he has renounced the wicked lyrics of hip-hop but not the genre. BTW, it is my understanding that his previous work would be owned by the producers and is no longer his property.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
I wish Kanye the best. But to be honest, I think he is stone cold crazy.
And really, that new album he dropped yesterday is horrific on every level. It is beyond awful musically in particular. There is that one track where he has the beeping noise going at a slightly different tempo than the song itself. Beyond stupid. And I could not stop laughing about the Chick-fil-a song. How in the world did CFA get so intertwined with Christianity that it belongs on a “Jesus” album?
Can I assume that Rajesh will be condemning Kanye’s Christian music style soon? Or is he exempt from Rajesh’s sweeping judgment because he is a new believer?
If Kanye wants to be a real Christian, he should join an IFB church and be sure to attend Hyles-Anderson, Fairhaven or Providence Baptist Bible College, where he’ll learn about true Christian music and make Kim wear a skirt always. Haymen!?
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
From the song Selah:
Everybody wanted Yandhi [referring to himself - Jay]
Then Jesus Christ did the laundry
They say the week start on Monday
But the strong start on Sunday
Won’t be in bondage to any man
John 8:33
We the descendants of Abraham
Ye should be made free
John 8:36
To whom the son set free is free indeed
He saved a wretch like me
Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah…
Hallelujah, He is wonderful
If you woke, then wake up
With Judas, kiss and make up
Even with the bitter cup
Forgave my brothers and drank up
Did everything but gave up
Stab my back, I can’t front
Still we win, we prayed up
Even when we die, we raise up (Hallelujah)
And here’s another:
How could He not be the greatest?
In my bed, under covers, when under-covers had raided
My presence is happy belated
Fashionably late, I’m just glad that you made it
The best is yet to come, I’m just glad that you waited
They all say they real till it’s time to appraise it
I seen them come and go, you only the latest
But who am I to judge? I’m crooked as Vegas
Use this Gospel for protection
It’s a hard road to Heaven
We call on your blessings
In the Father, we put our faith
King of the Kingdom
Our demons are tremblin’
Holy angels defending
In the Father, we put our faith
Lot of damaged souls, I done damaged those
And in my arrogance took a camera pose
Caught with a trunk of Barry Manilows
They sing a different tune when the slammer close
From the concrete grew a rose
They give you Wraith talk, I give you faith talk
Blindfolded on this road, watch me faith walk
Just hold on to your brother when his faith lost
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
It appears that the possibility exists that the condemnations of rock music as demonic, etc. by rock musicians may be primarily a condemnation of the lyrics and not of the music (sans words) itself.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[josh p]To clarify, my point about Kane was not to doubt his conversion but only to suggest that he is probably not one to be appealing to in order to prop a musical position. I truly do want to believe that he is saved now but I think celebrity evangelicalism is a real problem so I am wary of it. I actual really enjoy the testimonies of several Christian hip hop artists and just finished Jackie Hill Perry’s, “Gay Girl, Good God” which I recommend and may even submit a review of for SI.
He made a relevant comment so I posted his relevant comment. If you think that his testimony is suspect or even automatically invalidated just because he is a celebrity, you can choose to take that position but doing so does not in fact show that it is suspect or invalid. Given that he has been a part of that industry for many years, he certainly is in a position to know what that industry and music is like.
Furthermore, I am not propping a music position by merely citing him. I have cited other people’s testimonies that the music of rock music is demonic. Kanye’s testimony is relevant because his is a very recent testimony of someone who has converted and not just a testimony of someone who was/is a rock musician but not a believer.
Discussion