Do you hear "still small voices"?

Yeah, what Greg said.

I also think the marriage thing is a little weird, but I’ve heard it before, more than once. And I am not the one to say, “God, you had no part in this” in every case.

And I have heard a lot of weird things, and things where I would definitely say, um, that really doesn’t line up with Scripture—although not on salvation-level issues.

I would still be interested to know if you think Muller, Taylor and others were sinning by the way they expected the Spirit to move very specifically in the hearts of people concerning giving. It seems that you think God does not do this in a specific way.

So, I will just say, I disagree with you. I think that there can be times when the Holy Spirit specifically leads us (even just helping us now what Bible option is for us) or gives us wisdom on a topic. And I don’t think it compromises the doctrine of sufficiency of Scripture for life and godliness. I think this really has to do with the cessationist teachings also in some way.

MacArthur has a book about sola scriptura, and summarizes it like this:

The Protestant position, and my position, is that all things necessary for salvation and concerning faith and life are taught in the Bible with enough clarity that the ordinary believer can find them there and understand. p.2

If you look at the meat example in corinthians, did the knowledge that these gods didn’t exist immediately free everyone’s conscience so they all started eating meat? It doesn’t seem so. To some it was still sin, even though Scripture said otherwise. So is the Word insufficient? Sure, it’s not. But the Spirit works in different ways and paces with people. So there is some kind of even subjective type, God-controlled Spirit-led work going on in people.

anyway, i’m not sure where else to go now :)

[Anne Sokol] anyway, i’m not sure where else to go now :)

Let me suggest Friessen’s book, Decisions Making and the Will of God, again. You will find a much more comprehensive treatment of scripture regarding this subject than I have been able to give here.

on Kindle, I’ll let you know what I think ;)

decision-making is sort of a zebra of anther stripe, but somewhat related, and I’m sure it has lot of relevant stuff.

Will be back.

:)

[Anne Sokol]

on Kindle, I’ll let you know what I think ;)

decision-making is sort of a zebra of anther stripe, but somewhat related, and I’m sure it has lot of relevant stuff.

Will be back.

To save a buck and get a preview, here’s his website and a review of the book.

You could even preview it on Google books.

I am reading in order, so I haven’t read ch 15, which he references at the end, but is this not like something I have been saying? (Kindle has his latest edition, so it might not be in the first edition.)

Question: In this chapter you state that the moral will of God is fully revealed in the Bible. But wouldn’t special revelation expand the content of God’s moral will beyond what is contained in the Bible?

Yes, it would. And that did happen during the biblical era. For example, when the Spirit directed the church at Antioch to send out Barnabas and Saul as missionaries (Acts 13: 1– 2), that instruction represented an addition to the great commission. And it became God’s moral will for them— they were obliged to obey. Later, the “Macedonian vision” (Acts 16: 9– 10) did the same thing for Paul. His travel options were reduced by special guidance that expanded God’s moral will for him. So any divine guidance to an individual by means of supernatural revelation is God’s moral will for that person.

Is special revelation being given today? Some Bible scholars rule out that possibility. They maintain that with the closing of the canon of Scripture, God’s revelation has ceased until the second coming of Christ. While I understand the arguments for that position, I don’t see a conclusive case in the Bible itself. It seems preferable to leave open the possibility of divine revelation and subject specific claims to biblical tests— including supernatural means of communication and harmony with existing Scripture. Accordingly, in the first edition of this book, I included another category of God’s will— special guidance: “In unique cases God may supernaturally guide believers by divine voice, angel, dream, or miracle according to special revelation.”

On the other hand, while special guidance is possible, it is not promised nor do most believers have reason to expect it. When the Bible instructs us with principles for decision making (which is what this book is about), it directs us along other lines as explained in this chapter and the ones that follow. The theoretical possibility of special guidance concerns us less than the concrete, practical guidance already supplied. So when Peter writes that “[ God’s] divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness” (2 Peter 1: 3, NIV, italics added), I take that to include the moral will of God fully revealed in the Bible.

A more extended discussion of special revelation is presented in chapter 15, “Special Guidance and Decision Making.”

Friesen, Garry; Maxson, J. Robin (2009-10-05). Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View (Kindle Locations 2239-2258). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

I don’t remember that conversation. I will have to go find my copy and see if it’s in the older editions, or if it is something new. At first glance, I agree it sound just like what you have been saying.

I just finished through ch 11, and that will probably be all for today.

My initial thoughts, though I want to finish the book:

In my personal experience, he is creating too much of a gap between doing things traditional way vs. wisdom way. like, there’s no in-between? I have experienced that some decisions, even major ones, didn’t require a lot of thought or expenditure, maybe just my dad sitting down and outlining the options then stating what he thought best, for one example. (and Anne then stayed to get her masters degree.) Other decisions required a lot from me personally. So just painting it as if every decision in the traditional view is not wisdom-oriented and somehow requires vast amounts of agony somewhat false, although sure, there may be people who go to that extent.

I think his view also denies the possibility that some issues are more important for some people than others, and this is probably planned by God for personal reasons. Like other missionaries have no issues with asking for money, but I do. On the other hand, I have no theological issues with practicing family planning, though other Christians consider this a major issue. So, this view sort of denies that God can purposefully create these differences in our faiths for a reason. (or maybe I just haven’t read that part yet?)

Also, his chapters on wisdom, esp ch 11—well, it’s a lot of the same elements as what he calls the “traditional” way of knowing God’s will. At the end, he clarifies that the key difference is just that:

The wisdom view believes that in the area of freedom, wisdom is determinative— we must be wise. We must be able to defend decisions by wisdom when no moral command determines the decision. The traditional view will elevate inward impressions over wisdom. The logic is simple. If the impression comes from the Spirit, it must have precedence over any wisdom discerned by man. Proponents will even emphasize how some inward directives from God contradict human wisdom. (If inward impressions equaled revelation, that logic would hold. But they don’t; so it doesn’t.) The wisdom view argues that impressions do not have God’s authority, but the command to be wise does.

Friesen, Garry; Maxson, J. Robin (2009-10-05). Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View (Kindle Locations 3116-3121). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

… . Is that really clear? And I need to still read what he considers revelation in ch 15.

If you use the wisdom way, you can also feel a lack of peace? This sounds a little familiar. About lack of peace, he says:

Question: What if I make a decision that I believe to be wise, but then feel no peace afterwards?

How you respond to that circumstance will depend on the reason for the lack of peace. If you made the decision hastily, you may need to rethink or modify it. On the other hand, the lack of peace may be an indication that you don’t really believe that the way of wisdom is biblically correct. Or you may have become intellectually convinced that the way of wisdom is valid, but you haven’t had time to retrain your conscience. In either of these events, making a decision based on wisdom (rather than the “leading of the Lord into His individual will”) would not be “from faith” (Romans 14: 23), and that would produce inner conflict. 7 Getting used to a new paradigm for decision making can take some time. If a review of one’s theology and the factors involved in the decision expose no violation of God’s moral will or of wisdom, it would seem appropriate to follow through on the decision. Christians are to take their feelings into account; but in the end, we are not to be governed by them.

Friesen, Garry; Maxson, J. Robin (2009-10-05). Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View (Kindle Locations 3101-3110). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Also, the wisdom examples of the O&NT apply to us, but the being Spirit-led ones don’t?

Anyway, there are things I like about the book. i should say, it gives a perspective that can be valid—my first question on many good issues is just ‘what do you want to do?” and my mom used to say to “just flip a coin” … not saying that to promote that as law or anything, ha ha, but just that maybe no one has final grip on how to help others know God’s will.

that if you have the first edition of his book, you probably would like the updated version—seems he’s added/modified a lot from further discussions.

His chapter 15 is what i’m talking about, and i’m happy to be reading something that is not by charismatics/pentacostals where this type of thing is addressed.

Like what I was saying about it being non-canonical communication:

If God does give supernatural revelation and guidance today, it will be authoritative only for those to whom it was given, but will not be part of the canon as authoritative revelation for all believers.

Friesen, Garry; Maxson, J. Robin (2009-10-05). Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View (Kindle Locations 4020-4021). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

His end points are these—and I like how he calls it special guidance, not revelation:

SPECIAL OR SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE

1. God’s moral, wisdom, and sovereign guidance are normally sufficient. God does not promise, but may give special revelation for guidance when He sovereignly chooses.

2. Revelation is God supernaturally transferring His thoughts accurately to another.

3. Revelation has divine authority and must be believed and obeyed. 4. Special guidance by revelation is self-evident because it is supernaturally confirmed and in harmony with the Scriptures.

5. Most often, special guidance is given to enhance evangelism.

6. If God gives special guidance, the recipient’s freedom is reduced and God’s moral will is enlarged for that individual.

7. Supernatural guidance will not add to the canon of Scripture, which was closed with the passing of the apostles.

Friesen, Garry; Maxson, J. Robin (2009-10-05). Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View (Kindle Locations 4022-4029). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

I am not sure about this, but I might add that I don’t think special guidance should be sought or asked for; it usually is a form of “interruption;” and it has nothing to do to indicate one’s spiritual maturity.

I haven’t forgotten. I ordered a new edition which should be here in the next few days. I want to compare the two side by side to see what changes have been made. I’ll be back when I have had a chance to do that. I will say, i obviously don’t remember that part of the discussion in the book. I was struggling with the dot idea 15+ years ago when I read the book initial, and came away convinced of the big idea of the book. I will read what he says carefully, but I have not seen anything yet that convinces me to change my mind on anything I have said so far. I am glad the book has been beneficial to you; hopefully, it becomes a resource you can return to over the years.

Anne,

Sorry it took so long to get back to this. I have looked at the chapter you reference (15) in the original and the revised additions. I have come away with mixed emotions. I am glad my memory has not abandoned me, but I am disappointed that the revision has significantly undermined the usefulness of the resource.

In the original, the closest he comes to opening this door regarding modern revelation is to say, “I trust God that if anything more is needed for my guidance - such as an audible voice, an angelic messenger, or some other form of supernatural revelation - He will supply it just as He has when it was necessary in times past. This is my response to special revelation.” (p. 254)

The revised chapter’s entirely different. However, even in the revision, Friesen is vary narrow in his acceptance of the possibility of present day special revelation. He still specifically denies any kind of Divine communication by feeling or inner impression. Of these inner impressions he says they are entirely human in origin. “They often represent godly and wise ideas and motivations. But their valuable character can be tapped only when they are recognized as not being revelation and not having authority.” (p. 240) (Side note - he also rejects the modern continuationist’s redefinition of prophet/prophecy) So, even in this revision, he does not seem to support the kind of guidance you have been talking about, or what you inferred from the video. The scriptural examples of special revelation include audible voices and angelic messengers, accompanied by miraculous signs, which he says would be binding on any present revelation. (pp. 234-5) Furthermore, he insists it would be very rare based on the biblical pattern. Few people experienced such, and those people often only experiencing a few instances. He further limits it by saying these rare instances in scripture most often pertain to evangelism instead of general guidance about decisions. (p. 235)

In both versions, the second much more than the first, the core issue is still one of sufficiency of scripture. I would agree that if more is needed than scripture, then God can and would provide more. However, scripture emphatically states it contains all that is necessary for the man of God to be completely equipped for a godly life. I think that is where the discussion needs to be focused. What has God said? What does God mean? The rest flows out of this doctrine.