Do you hear "still small voices"?

how this could even be doubted. Does not God specifically lead us into His will for our lives in individual ways? Are we saying the Scriptures are insufficient if I’m praying and asking God what college to go to or if I should marry X or not, knowing already that the answer is not written on the pages of the Bible?

[J Ng]

Speaking hypothetically and not trying to be insensitive to the situation at all, had the child not been discovered till too late and the town repented at the funeral, would that have been Providence?

Basically, which part of the lives of Romans 8:28 God lovers is not providential?

It is providence when our gut feel turns out right; and it is providence when it turns out wrong, I say. Same God, same providence, same promise. So we’re to rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, give thanks in everything.

But to expect “just that little bit more” of divine guidance … I dunno. Seems to separate Christians into the haves and have-nots of some extrabiblical treacle.

i think that is one of the keys, she wasn’t asking or expecting it. God could’ve worked differently, sure.

Ann,

Not to make light of your scenario, because it is serious- but how is that different from when you have young children, and it grows strangely quiet, and you have a “mother’s intuition” moment when you just know it’s too quiet and you get up to find that little junior is ____________________?

Would your perspective change at all if some unbelieving parent described the same kind of thing?

Do we hold God as actively responsible for sudden, traumatic deaths as we would sudden rescues?

I think one could be thankful to God in the situation you describe without necessarily concluding that God communicated to her in direct fashion. For that matter, the story probably doesn’t end with the rescue. God uses trials to teach. I imagine your friend’s awareness of where her child is (not to mention the ability to access the pool) probably changed to some degree after that.

:D

would you also like to explain away the pastor’s impression to witness using archeology? … surely the man must’ve been carrying a stack of architectural drawings which the pastor saw out of the corner of his eye … been wearing a compass and protractor decorated tie …

I don’t think it’s worth talking about with you all. But I don’t mind going on the record saying that I have no problem with these “remarkable providences,” and it’s hard to talk about them because they are usually private, and I have no conflict in the sufficiency of scripture area.

Another example of this type of thing, George Muller’s autobiography:

The reader of the former volumes knows, that in October, 1830, I gave up my stated salary, as pastor and minister of the Gospel, and that, since then, I have had neither as pastor of a large church, nor as director of the Scriptural Knowledge Institution, any salary, stipend, or fixed income at all. Nevertheless, God has put it into the hearts of some of His children, in almost all parts of the world, to remember my temporal necessities, and to send to me, entirely unsolicited, help in money as well as in clothes or provisions… . All this abundance I received simply in answer to prayer. For I have neither directly nor indirectly asked for anything for myself from man, since October, 1830.

Was it entirely of human origin that they gave to him when he never solicited? Or this:

Now, as I do not consider it sinful to have some money, until I clearly see, how God would have me to use it for Him, as I am only His steward; and as I had no clear light how to use it; I continued waiting on God, and not long after received light, and gave in one donation £980. 9s. 7d. for the Missions of the Scriptural Knowledge Institution….

In Mueller’s case, it is an evident answer to prayer. God works through the prayers of His people.

that God “moves” people through prayer—but how?

I think fundamentalists or evangelicals or whoever, really have a wrong approach to this question. For one thing, I don’t think you have to say that every communication or movement of God in a personal way is canon-type communication. Lumping the discussion under sola Scriptura is probably not even what Luther was referring to when he said that phrase.

anyway …

[Anne Sokol] I’m not talking about anything “miraculous” either. I just think it’s normal.

Query: If we are supposed to accept your position purely on the basis of anecdote, why are you unwilling to accept your charismatic friends’ positions on the same basis? I am sure they can provide you with names, phone numbers and facebook contact lists of people who will tell personal stories of how God spoke to them in a dream or vision. I think you have argued against yourself without realizing it.

[Anne Sokol]

how this could even be doubted. Does not God specifically lead us into His will for our lives in individual ways? Are we saying the Scriptures are insufficient if I’m praying and asking God what college to go to or if I should marry X or not, knowing already that the answer is not written on the pages of the Bible?

Very perceptive - you have hit on one of the core issues. And the answer is no, not outside of the providential outworking of His plans, which He does not reveal to us ahead of time. The answers are already written in the pages of the Bible, where God provides all the principles we need to make decisions that honor and glorify Him within the realm of freedom He has provided humanity since the very creation. If you believe God has to give you an answer about the college your are supposed to attend and provides individualized leading about decisions, why don’t you go to Him for the individual plan in everything? Either God has an individualized plan, which has to account for every detail of life, or He doesn’t. It cannot be both ways.

[Anne Sokol]

that God “moves” people through prayer—but how?

I think fundamentalists or evangelicals or whoever, really have a wrong approach to this question. For one thing, I don’t think you have to say that every communication or movement of God in a personal way is canon-type communication. Lumping the discussion under sola Scriptura is probably not even what Luther was referring to when he said that phrase.

anyway …

[Chip Van Emmerik]

I would strongly recommend “Decision Making and the Will of God” by Garry Friesen as a way to think through the issue biblically.

Hey, long time no see! Oldie but goldie. But talk about a perfect storm in the Fundamentalist world when it first came out—which may have been part of a tsunami in the larger, evangelical world, but I wouldn’t have known then.

For the most part, it seems, Friesen’s work’s been rejected in Fundamentalism, large tracts of which still expect and brandish scripture talismans for this decision or that, whether picking out a mission field (suddenly door-opening verses pop up), switching seminaries, building a church annex, marrying a particular person, whatever.

It often goes like, “The Lord gave me [no] peace about it,” followed by “This morning He gave me a verse for it,” which is inevitably sealed with pastoral nods and well wishes from the congregation.

Well, can I throw in a thought? Could Agabus and Paul both have been wrong? Sure, they were living in the pre-canon, Apostolic period. But what if they’d had their conversation last Sunday afternoon?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

But Anne, definitions matter; that’s why I included them. What you are describing is miraculous because it is outside the laws of nature. And it is an attack on the sufficiency of scripture. Scripture claims that it provides God-breathed communication to man and provides all that is necessary to make “the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:17 ESV) What you are describing is also supposedly God-breathed, but is also necessary to equip the man of God for some specific good work. Negatively, it contradicts and undermines the clear teaching of scripture about the scriptures and about the biblical understanding of God-breathed communication (most significantly inerrant though you could go through a whole laundry list of characteristics that apply to scripture but do not apply to these extra-biblical communications). Positively, the idea has no support or evidence to support itself anywhere in scripture.

Query: If we are supposed to accept your position purely on the basis of anecdote, why are you unwilling to accept your charismatic friends’ positions on the same basis? I am sure they can provide you with names, phone numbers and facebook contact lists of people who will tell personal stories of how God spoke to them in a dream or vision. I think you have argued against yourself without realizing it.

I just see that there are personalized ways that God somehow communicates things to an individual child. My BJ friend once said that he heard a BJ teacher saying that when you look for God’s will about something, go back and examine how He’s shown you His will in the past. So I did that, and I saw that whenever I had to make a life-altering decision, God did 2 things 1) He gave me an overwhelming desire that was not fulfilled for a while and 2) a moment of conviction from the Holy Spirit would come where I would know that this is what I must do.

For example, I wanted to be a missionary for years, years, years. I finished college, … went to grad school, worked for 2 years afterwards. At all those junctions, i desperately wanted to leave for the mission field. I had every imaginable open door. I even applied to various boards . .. but every single time, I would come to a point where God would just somehow but very definitely in a quiet knowing communicate to me that this was not His will for me, and I would be sinning if I kept further on this path.

… then, one day I opened my email and read a letter from a BJ grad asking or someone to come teach English, and that very particular conviction came to me that this was God’s will for me. I consider this a ministry of the Spirit to me. (It has nothing to do with you.)

And I look back on this now, and I see that my entire life today depended on that exact ordering of my steps.

I used this pattern with marriage then, too. And I asked God very specifically for this sense of conviction, and I waited months and fasted a lot. And He did give it. But I don’t use this anymore at this time in my life, having a husband to work these things through with.

Now, I am giving you only one example. I will also tell you, my parents are BJ grads, I have never had hooey-hooey influences on my life, I went to the Wilds for pete’s sake :D And how was i saved? As a child, i remember praying often to ask God to save me. But one day I was home alone working quietly, and these words distinctly came into my head, Anne, you need to be saved. So I knelt down and asked God to save me, and that was the moment I grasped or had given to me saving faith. And I never told anyone else about it for over a year. It didn’t occur to me to tell even my parents. I have told this testimony, for one, in Mount Calvary BC in Greenville, SC, and no one, no one ever anywhere, ever mentioned it was an “entirely human experience.” That it must have been the fruit loops I had for breakfast. :) … Call it remarkable providence.

The thing is, I dont expect God to do that. I dont tell others that anyone should expect God to do that for them. That is crazy. God didn’t have to do it for me. it’s just what he did. I dont consider it in the realm of authoritative in the way the Bible is.

This is why, for me, these types of issues are not sola scriptura issues.

But sure I understand why it could be. I mean, I live in the same town as Sunday Adelaja, pastor of the largest charismatic church in Europe. and the number of believers generally is so small here, it’s like a village knowing each other’s business sometimes. ;)

I do have a problem with demanding, expecting, teaching, elevating “personal communication from God.” calling it prophesy, revelation, vision, telling other people God’s will for their lives and money, speaking as though God has communicated canon-status stuff to you.

[Anne Sokol] I just see that there are personalized ways that God somehow communicates things to an individual child.

…just observing that people have “deja vu” kind of moments or similar times where parents will say, “Hey, wait a minute… where’s my kid?” I know we’ve had more than a few of those times over the course of our seven, and will likely have more as time goes on…

I’m not even going so far as to say that your impressions and so forth that you describe as a voice in your head don’t happen in some way or another. People respond and conceive of things differently. I don’t talk out loud to myself, but some people do, for example- and it doesn’t mean that they’re crazy or anything, but perhaps they are trying to organize a list of ideas or something. What I may think and describe as a moment of inspiration or sudden impulse, you articulate as a voice, maybe even a distinct one.

Such impulses may be even be used of God. The level of subjectivity, however, should make us hesitant to identify the experience as authoritative. The story of how you met your husband, for example- I would describe it as wrestling and deliberating, accompanied by appropriate prayer. In the end, though, would you have been disobedient to God to have been more “impulsive” and just have said yes to his proposal at the beginning?

A sense of confidence is great, and when it comes from a heart of submission to God and compliance with His commands, it is truly a wonderful experience. But if we over-emphasize the experience, what can end up happening is people rely on their impulses rather than the basis of revelation God has provided. I have heard firsthand anecdotes somewhat similar to yours, for example, but with people justifying how God was leading them to divorce their spouse. I have people tell me about how God sent a particular bird outside their window to remind them of a deceased relative or loved one.

The experience may not be completely irrelevant, but it must not be the basis for why we forge ahead. Our confidence rests in the promises of God.

greg, i would be interested in your deconstruction of the pastor in the video clip —starting at 34:45, i think. and yes, i agree with your reservations and people making sinful choices.

although, i have an acquaintance dealing with the tragic death of her 2 yo, listening to her grief, and who knows, maybe God sends a bird to comfort them … ?

Chip, I don’t have much more to say really, i could try, but … I don’t think this is a topic you want to talk about. yes, there was one time i waited for that sense of conviction because the guy said that God often deals with us in a pattern in how He reveals His will, that’s all. and I am in a personal relationship with God while i was doing it, not a demanding one. He leads His sheep.

although, i have an acquaintance dealing with the tragic death of her 2 yo, listening to her grief, and who knows, maybe God sends a bird to comfort them … ?

Does God provide sunsets for one specific person? Again, I’m not saying a bird can’t be a source of comfort. I would strongly hesitate to assure someone that it was God’s intent to personally deliver said bird to that person, any more than I would assure someone God had Paul write Romans 8 just for them in their personal time of need.

I’ll see what I can do about the review.