Report on Slavery and Racism in the History of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

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Joeb's picture

Fundy/Evangelical in towns in the Midwest that are still Lilly White are the last to become diversified in the US.   These Christians are none to happy with the prospect.  That’s why many are ardent Trumpeteers   

About 90 miles south of Chicago lives a mid 30s GARB Trained Pastor who said to my face our Country needs to go back to the 1950s when people and our government were more Godly  That happened this summer Wally. Not old news. 

 When I reminded this Pastor that a good portion of our Godly Country practiced apartheid and lynched blacks who got out of line or challenged them WALLY. THIS YOUNG WHITE PASTOR SAID THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BLACKS WAS EXZAGERATED   In my mind WALLY that’s the truth no matter how you explain things ie Bert hit the nail on the head   

Wally I personally knew one of the FBI Agents who dug those VERY DEAD YOUNG MEN out of the dam in Mississippi ie Mississippi Burning   In addition to those bodies they found 100s of unmarked graves in the sticks   You know the disappearing black man    

My response to this young GARB Pastor was to say the above  to a black man he met on the street   I then told the Young Pastor to be prepared for a big dental bill   Where did this classic Fundy/Evangelical Rant come from if Whites in the Church are not racist  Wally.  Also it’s still circulating   Very sick Wally   Maybe you better take Bert’s advise about visiting the real world   I’ll be glad to give you a tour of the hood in Philadelphia  

Wally I’ll even take you to Kensington the main drug Mart in Philly   One thing interesting 70% of the heroin addicts are White Suburban and Rural people who moved to Philly for the cheaper heroin   

Note The 1950s was only Godly and great if you were WHITE   

 

Joeb's picture

I will say that my first experience of a African Americans in a all White Church occurred in the Early 60s at a Swedish Baptist Church in Cedar Rapids Iowa.  I think  the Denomination is now called Converge. .  

At this Church known as Calvary Baptist I witnessed an Young African American Man and his white wife being ordained to go to the mission field. Even as a young child it was a very positive experience.  

It must have been those Swede Christians. Very correct and progressive for their times.  Calvary Baptist in Cedar Rapids is still there although I don’t think it is with Converge anymore.  Greg H do you know anyone at that church.  

Larry's picture

Moderator

 It is guilt by association, by associating a musical style with African natives in their deep, dark jungles worshipping Satan. If it's not outright racist, it certainly has racist undertones.

Out of curiosity, why assume that the methods of the worship of Satan (assuming that's what it was) had to do with race rather than with the worship of Satan. What if a particular type of music or rhythm was used because of what it did and it had nothing at all to do with race? Do you see the argumentative problem you have engaged in? 

There are people who believe that waltz music (which seems to have originated in Europe) should not be used in the worship of God. Is that also racist?

Greg Long's picture

I'm sorry, Larry, but if you see absolutely no racist undertones whatsoever, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks. 

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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

Bert Perry's picture

Larry, the thing that gives strong racist undertones, beyond the fact that Garlock is indisputably talking predominantly about black peoples' music to begin with, is that what Garlock gets right is that rock & roll does have some of its roots in African rhythms.

And as such, you can't just point at rock & roll and those African music genre pointing a finger at spirituals, black Gospel, blues, jazz, and ragtime.  In other words, it's an implicit statement that the music that consoled and encouraged them in the fields as slaves and sharecroppers, the music that comforted them through slavery, Jim Crow, and quite frankly the musicians who sang and played it--really all of their ancestors--were, as people (wrongly) said about Gene Simmons and his bandmates, "Knights in Satan's Service."  The finger-pointing at African rhythms instead of equally pagan European rhythms says a lot, too.  "Your historic musical genre and methods are bad, ours, not so much."

If you don't get why blacks would suggest we take a long walk off a short pier when we say such things, I'm afraid I cannot help you. 

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Larry's picture

Moderator

I'm sorry, Larry, but if you see absolutely no racist undertones whatsoever, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks. 

No need to be sorry. I didn't say I saw "absolutely no racist undertones." I simply asked a few questions. I would simply like to hear how you concluded it was racist. Do you have no answers to the questions I asked? Why do you make the assumptions you do? Do you have no explanation of these racist undertones you claim? 

Remember how many times Ron Bean has complained about asking questions and getting no answers? Is this another one of those times where people making dogmatic assertions have no answer to honest questions?

I think charges of racism are cheap and easy, especially when you don't have to defend them. And we live in a day when it is virtually impossible to question them without getting charged with racism. But the last twenty years have taught me a lot. And one thing it has taught me is that most white people talking about racism aren't living anywhere close to the reality. 

Jay's picture

There are people who believe that waltz music (which seems to have originated in Europe) should not be used in the worship of God. Is that also racist?

Can you look at someone from Europe and say that their music is evil because it was used to worship demons?  Or do we only do that because we see Africans and judge them on the color of their skin?

There's a guy in my church from Kenya. He's an awesome dude, but his taste in music is different from mine.  What right do I have to say that his music is wrong just because it's what he grew up with?  He served as an elder in our church, so it's not like I have to be worried about his worship of demons.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Larry's picture

Moderator

Or do we only do that because we see Africans and judge them on the color of their skin?

Why claim that Africans are being judged or that such judgment is on the color of their skin? I don't get that, Jay. That's totally unsupported. 

 What right do I have to say that his music is wrong just because it's what he grew up with? 

None. But that's completely irrelevant to anything. No one has claimed that music is wrong (or right) simply because it's what someone grew up with. 

Again, this is why music discussion turn silly. These kinds of comments are silly, irrelevant comments that show one is completely missing the point of the discussion (whether intentionally or unintentionally).

Larry's picture

Moderator

Larry, though it might be much easier to follow Greg's example and just throw around accusations without providing evidence,

You have provided evidence for Greg's comment, over and over again.

And regarding the notion that because Garlock doesn't fess up to a racial animus

It's not about fessing up to it. It's about your comment that you admitted was not true. 

that a valid inference is as binding as a set of proof-texts.

Of course it is. But it has to be a valid inference. And that is what is lacking. There is no evidence that you made a valid inference. It has nothing in common with the Trinity or other similar doctrines. That's a logical fallacy, as you should know.

But all that aside, at the end of the day, you made a false statement and admitted it was false.

Larry's picture

Moderator

If you don't get why blacks would suggest we take a long walk off a short pier when we say such things, I'm afraid I cannot help you. 

No need to be afraid. The lack of help is due to the lack of substance in your arguments. You seem to assume that all cultures are equal, and that any expression of a culture is acceptable and equal to any expression of any other culture. Furthermore, you assume that the noetic effects of sin has not affected judgment about aesthetics and propriety. Furthermore, you seem to assume that any cultural expression is tied to skin color. Furthermore, you seem to assume that any issue raised with something from Africa is about skin color. You seem not to consider that it might be about something else (which is what you should consider based on the mention of India and South America). Furthermore, and perhaps worst of all, you assume that people of a certain skin color can't follow and process an argument. 

The basic problem in your premise is that Garlock's argument (and I have problems with it) was not based on race but based on other things entirely, and it included multiple races and multiple cultures. Now, Garlock might be racist. His comment might be race-based, but you gave no reason to believe it is. 

Again, as I said to Jay, this is why music discussions get silly. People can't talk about facts and arguments. They make silly statements that are frequently irrelevant.

TylerR's picture

Editor

Why can't we all just be happy?

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist?

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