"Horrific mass shootings aren’t the only sign that the world is pining under the effects of sin and darkness."

I have never claimed to be a pacifist. But it pleases you to accuse me of being so. Prior to 17/07/1999 you would have taken one look at me and left the room or crossed the street to avoid me. I was a man of violence and my face and demeanor portrayed the fact. Rather that leave the room you might have pulled out your gun?

Pen knife has pride of place inside a sealed waterproof bag, inside a sealed bag at the bottom of my rucksack. They are sealed as they contain various items that need to be kept dry. If I decided to use it as a defensive weapon I’d have to meet a very patient attacker.

Taking a life, even lawfully, has an effect.

For someone to talk of killing or boast of what he would do if threatened is akin to a virgin discussing sex. Take the emotional impact of the bereavement of the closest person to you and then multiply it by a figure that is directly influenced by your conscience. Multiply that by the sleepless nights and the sudden horrors by day and you will still not know the true effects. I sincerely hope you never find out.

Huw,

I sincerely hope I never find out either, but that is a different perspective entirely than the one you have been perusing on this thread. As awful as everyone always describes the effect to be of taking a life, I would rather face that than the memory of standing helplessly and watching while a loved one is murdered before my eyes, or leaving my wife a widow and my children fatherless because only the outlaws had guns.

Do you trust in the complete foreknowledge and sovereignty of the operation of the Eternal Almighty in all that comes to pass?

I have never claimed to be a pacifist. But it pleases you to accuse me of being so.

It doesn’t please me. I don’t really care one way or the other. I was simply drawing a conclusion based on your comments here. Rob Fall drew the same conclusion

Rather that leave the room you might have pulled out your gun?

To pull it out, I would have to go to the closet and get it and then go to the garage and find some ammunition for it. Then I would have to hope in the twenty years since either has been fired, everything still works okay. By the time I did that, you would be able to get your penknife out.

But all that’s quite irrelevant. To the point:

1. If you want to die (post 76), you are welcome to. But you don’t get to make that decision for someone else. We are duty bound to protect life.

2. Having established that, the question is how best to protect people from gun violence. All the actual evidence, as well as logic and reason, dictate that a gun is the best way to protect against gun violence. History shows us that waving paper around (even when passed by Congress) doesn’t work. History also shows us that principals and counselors running towards a gunman won’t protect children. History also shows us that when good guys have guns and use them, bad guys with guns do less harm.

So the question remains, If your child is facing a gunman, what would you like to have in your possession?

p. A17, David Kopel, Guns, Mental Illness, and Newtown

…So when armed citizens are on the scene, many lives are saved. The media rarely mentions the mass murders that were thwarted by armed citizens at the Shoney’s Restaurant in Anniston, Ala. (1991), the high school in Pearl, Miss. (1997), the middle-school dance in Edinboro, Penn (1998), and the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. (2007), among others.

At the Clackamas Mall in Oregon last week, an active shooter murdered two people and then saw a shopper,who had a handgun carry permit, had drawn a gun and was aiming at him. The murderer’s next shot was to kill himself.

[Larry]

SNIP

2. Having established that, the question is how best to protect people from gun violence. All the actual evidence, as well as logic and reason, dictate that a gun is the best way to protect against gun violence. History shows us that waving paper around (even when passed by Congress) doesn’t work. History also shows us that principals and counselors running towards a gunman won’t protect children. History also shows us that when good guys have guns and use them, bad guys with guns do less harm.

So the question remains, If your child is facing a gunman, what would you like to have in your possession?

I can’t understand why you post anything that is irrelevant, your words not mine.

In answer to your last question I don’t indulge in the time wasting heroics of ”what if”. It was one of the changes that occurred after my salvation. I received life and began to live it rather than fantasize about things.

So if you keep a gun for protection while it and you are not prepared then your priorities are either mixed up or you are simply confused as to why you have it.

Do you trust in the complete foreknowledge and sovereignty of the Eternal in all that comes to pass?

[Huw]

Do you trust in the complete foreknowledge and sovereignty of the operation of the Eternal Almighty in all that comes to pass?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[Huw]

Do you trust in the complete foreknowledge and sovereignty of the operation of the Eternal Almighty in all that comes to pass?

Of course.

Huw,

Do you have a job that provides income? Why? Don’t you trust the sovereign God to supply all your need? Of course we know that having a job is the very means that God wishes to supply our needs. In the same manner, arming with guns in America is or could be one way that God could be sovereignly using our preparation, training, and forethought to protect us. God uses means to work his will and he most often uses ourselves to be the very means to help us. If a serial killer was making his way through my house and I cried out “Lord help!” he might have been trying to help when we were at the gun store with a wad of cash, and we made the illogical conclusion that God would just help us with lightening bolts from thin air.

Some say God helps those who help themselves. I would say the consistently biblical teaching on the sovereignty of God would put a slight twist on that, and say “those who are actively trying to prepare and meet their own needs are most ready and able to use the Lord’s help when it is needed and does come.”

Also, I’m glad you’re part of the “ecclesia as you see it,” above. But I’m wondering what local body of believers you associate with and put yourself under the authority and direction of those elders. I got the sense in my spirit that you don’t. This is what we in America call “getting the big E on the eye chart” correct. Do that, then lecture the Americans.

Just to clarify. I’m not saying that the world shouldn’t arm itself indeed I know it must. I’m not saying a converted man shouldn’t arm himself for personal protection. What I am saying is a converted man wouldn’t arm himself, because it goes against what the scriptures teach.

I know you think that, but questioning Chip’s belief in the sovereignty of God is incoherent and inapplicable to whether he should have a gun or not. There are all kinds of things we both trust God for, and prepare for the worst.

It is applicable to all. Taking the name of the Eternal Almighty in vain means someone professes and confesses Him, but doesn’t trust Him.

Do you think it is a lawful for a professing Christian, to be employed as a police officer, if it means he has to carry a firearm?

If the man is an officer before he was saved then the scripture is clear that he should carry on in that duty. It would be wise of that man to ask for duties where he does not have to be armed.In the UK a police officer does not carry a weapon/firearm unless he has first applied for the post.

I have looked over the last few days at all the instances in which the words sword, vengeance, murder, judgment and death are used in the New Testament. After Peters encounter with violence after which he was warned of Messiah that, ‘those that live by the sword shall die by the sword’ there is no other mention of any disciples or Apostles taking up the sword in self defense or in defense of others. I have also read through the first ten persecutions up until 312AD and there is no mention of defense by sword or any other weapon. The opposite is always the case where the saints have been so certain of what they stand for that they have willingly and with joy forfeited their lives. In most cases this led to others being saved.

Many people make a big fuss of being a witness, but are unaware that witness includes martyrdom. This is what Messiah meant when He said, ”ye shall be my witnesses”. Great commission anyone?