"Horrific mass shootings aren’t the only sign that the world is pining under the effects of sin and darkness."

The passage referred to is Luke 22: 35-37 AV 1611.

.³⁵ And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

³⁶ Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

³⁷ For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

³⁸ And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

my bold and italics.

[Shaynus]

So what do you do with the very literal statement where He told his disciples to get a sword, and sell their cloak if they had none.

Yep Rob. I was lazy and didn’t look it up. Huw: to really confront what scripture teaches, along with your own interpretive methods previously stated, is that you have to say that 1) swords equal guns 2) and there are clear textual reasons Jesus wasn’t delivering facts here in Luke, and if he was being more “proverbial” why do we see that from the text.

I’ll put another text into the hat: John 18:36 (ESV)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

To me His logic goes like this:

In worldly kingdoms it would be normal to expect fighting on my behalf so I wouldn’t be delivered to those who would harm me.

My kingdom isn’t worldly.

You shouldn’t expect that reaction.

But Jesus does realize that his servants are in the world’s kingdoms. If in a worldly context, I think he could see his servants fighting in some way (hence the sword procurement (guns?) mentioned above. Jesus was for one kind of fighting, and against another kind. Context and circumstance were king, and so they are today. If I were beaten up or killed because I were a Christian? So be it. If an innocent child was about to be shot in front of me because a maniac thought it was fun, and I had the chance to do something, I should procure my sword Jesus told us to get, and center of cardiovascular triangle, squeeze don’t pull, focus on front sight shooting the perp at least twice.

“Defend the fatherless and widows” isn’t mainly about rent controlled housing.

[Ron Bean]

[Aaron Blumer]

It’s getting tiresome to repeat, but I’m not seeing it in the media yet: what if just one teacher had been armed?

Then five and six year old kids could have seen their teacher shoot someone to death.

While I’m pro gun, I don’t believe that armed teachers is the answer.

Oh and Ron, I love and respect you as my pastor, but let’s have some proportionality. Let’s say a teacher shot the perp after three kids were killed. We now have 23 fewer funerals with some kids confused about how their teacher acted. Many of the kids who might be rightly confused are at least not dead. I can see good reasons for teachers not to always be armed, including access to weapons by kids, but them seeing a teacher shoot an intruder isn’t one of them given the alternative. Access difficulties could be solved with proper thinking and equipment.

Oh and Ron, I love and respect you as my pastor, but let’s have some proportionality. Let’s say a teacher shot the perp after three kids were killed. We now have 23 fewer funerals with some kids confused about how their teacher acted. Many of the kids who might be rightly confused are at least not dead. I can see good reasons for teachers not to always be armed, including access to weapons by kids, but them seeing a teacher shoot an intruder isn’t one of them given the alternative. Access difficulties could be solved with proper thinking and equipment.

I love you too Shayne and I think we’re essentially on the same side of this issue. Saying “arm teachers” is a simplistic solution that seems to be impossible to implement in our day and culture. Teachers face a formidable enough task in teaching without adding firearms proficiency to their skill set. (Although discipline in the Junior High might improve if Miss White is packing.)

I’ve heard that a number of high schools in major cities have “resource officers” (armed policemen) on duty in the schools.

There are also “minor” gun incidents (students bringing guns to school) that don’t get press coverage.

It is tragic that the wickedness of our world is such that horrific shooting incidents like this are so numerous that they are compared.

‘’So be it. If an innocent child was about to be shot in front of me because a maniac thought it was fun, and I had the chance to do something, I should procure my sword Jesus told us to get, and center of cardiovascular triangle, squeeze don’t pull, focus on front sight shooting the perp at least twice.’’

It’s silly fantasies like this that are the root cause of gun misuse. You fancy yourself as judge, jury and executioner. That should exclude you from ever owning a gun.

There was a post on SI about wearing a weapon, but I can’t seem to find it. What struck me most was the need to boast about wearing a weapon and the delight in telling others the type of weapon. It reminded me of my childhood when my thoughts were nothing but evil.

You ignored the sword question. Conveniently.

I don’t fancy myself any kind if judge or jury. If you can’t see the moral goodness of jumping in and stopping a child from getting murdered, then who is sick?

[Shaynus]

You ignored the sword question. Conveniently.

I don’t fancy myself any kind if judge or jury. If you can’t see the moral goodness of jumping in and stopping a child from getting murdered, then who is sick?

I haven’t ignored it. I’m still working on it and if you had done the same you wouldn’t be asking me to interpret scripture for you.

CVE,

I both see and uphold my moral obligation, but it takes second place to my obligation to my Saviour.

Self-defense doesn’t have to mean armed with a gun. Tasers are fairly effective as well. Other measures to protect kids in schools would be bulletproof doors, and panic buttons near the teacher’s desk that activate secure locks on classroom doors.

This school had every reasonable safety measure in place, and the perpetrator, unable to get into the school in the normal way, broke a window. Which serves to bolster the point that I often make about laws- the only thing a locked door does is keep honest men honest. The only thing gun control laws will do is paint targets on the foreheads of law abiding citizens and provide more weapons and opportunity to criminals. I can’t go for that.

The ‘effect of sin and darkness’ means that we will sometimes have to do things that we find repugnant for a greater good. I would not delight in the death of another person, but when someone decides that they have the right to steal someone’s life, liberty, or property, we are morally obligated to come to their defense with whatever means is at our disposal. Best case scenario is that they are apprehended by law enforcement and made to face justice in court.

But sometimes we have no recourse, and must act to save the lives of the innocent, in this case, innocent children.

Some folks are more proactive and prudent, taking self-defense classes and arming themselves with pepper spray (which isn’t all that effective, btw), handguns, or tasers. Good for them. That’s who I want to be standing next to in an emergency. It is simply the nature of the sin-cursed world that we live in.

[Huw]

I haven’t ignored it. I’m still working on it and if you had done the same you wouldn’t be asking me to interpret scripture for you.

CVE,

I both see and uphold my moral obligation, but it takes second place to my obligation to my Saviour.

[Huw]

In Wales we have strict gun control and I can’t remember the last time I heard of someone being shot, yes it’s that rare.

Do our gun control laws have an effect upon the lack of gun crime?

In the evangels we find violence is proposed by James and John when they wanted to call down fire to destroy those that would not listen or agree.

We then have Messiah telling the Apostles if they didn’t have a sword to sell their garments and buy one. They then reply ‘’here are two swords’’ Messiah says ‘’It is enough’’.

It is an impossible thing to believe that he meant two swords were enough for any fight they may have. We must therefore conclude that Messiah was, as usual, teaching them something.

Fast forward to Peter taking up the sword and taking off the earlobe. This is the teaching, ‘’ Put again they sword unto his place: for all they that take the sword shall destruct by the sword’’.

The one sword was owned by Peter, who was the focal point of the lesson here.

The other sword was with James and later James was ‘’And he killed (took out) James with the sword’’.
Two swords, first a warning in Peter and finally the prophecy fulfilled in James.

At the time of James death there was a great persecution. If any were tempted to take up the sword this was a reminder of the consequences.
They would later be instructed to take up the Sword of the Spirit and this my dear friends is the true sword or weapon of our choice.

A few months ago I saw a man vandalizing my car. It was 10:30pm and he is a known drug user. I immediately went out to confront him and when he saw me he suggested that I wanted a fight. I replied that I didn’t, but that I wanted him out of the way so that I could see what he’d been up to. He then insisted I wanted a fight and went for me. I proceeded to punch him until he cried he’d had enough.

My response was in proportion to the danger to myself and my property. After the first punch I found myself with my hand behind his head as I punched him, because I didn’t want him to fall and hurt himself.

I then called the police and he was arrested.

[Huw]

A few months ago I saw a man vandalizing my car. It was 10:30pm and he is a known drug user. I immediately went out to confront him and when he saw me he suggested that I wanted a fight. I replied that I didn’t, but that I wanted him out of the way so that I could see what he’d been up to. He then insisted I wanted a fight and went for me. I proceeded to punch him until he cried he’d had enough.

My response was in proportion to the danger to myself and my property. After the first punch I found myself with my hand behind his head as I punched him, because I didn’t want him to fall and hurt himself.

I then called the police and he was arrested.

Good for you. As you said, you respond in proportion to the danger. No one here is advocating that we shoot car thieves. Deadly force is always a last recourse, but is sometimes necessary to protect the helpless.

The just shall live by morals?

This is what the Pharacies wanted and indeed loved, but Messiah turned that out. They hated him for it, because the moral obligations under law caused in them a self-justness that confirmed the death in which they existed.