Relearning who God is: How God’s description of himself upends our expectations

Larry, the John 3 passage may be the one notable exception to an otherwise consistent evangelistic approach. On the other hand, it may not be the words of Jesus at all, as many solid commentaries recognize. (In spite of the decision of red letter editions.) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son…” sounds more like the words of the Apostle John than of Christ. Notice the use of the third person.

Aaron, I am not questioning that love was the motive for salvation. It was. The Scriptures are clear. But that is a different issue than the question of how NT evangelists preached the gospel to sinners. You don’t find Jesus or the Apostles explaining God’s motive in evangelism. It is revealed to saints.

Larry, the John 3 passage may be the one notable exception to an otherwise consistent evangelistic approach.

Just a slight pushing back: Do you think we have enough evidence to determine what the “consistent evangelistic approach” was? Out of 70ish years of early church evangelism in the NT writing era, the evidence we have could be read in less than 30 minutes or so (generously speaking).

Second, “otherwise” is a big word. If we have one example of it, then it is evidence inspired by the Spirit. And one is as good as the rest of them.

IMO, I think we should be cautious with these types of arguments. I am not sure they are as convincing as some think.

Some of you would make good pedo-baptists. We don’t need direct Biblical evidence to baptize infants, but can make inferences from OT circumcision and NT household baptisms.

Does God love sinners? Yes! Was love His motive for saving sinners? Yes. Is the love of God a significant NT doctrine? Yes. Does God want Christians to understand the greatness of His love? Yes. Is God’s love for sinners a necessary component of the gospel that ought to be proclaimed to sinners? No. If it were, we wouldn’t have so much trouble finding examples of NT evangelists declaring God’s love when addressing the unconverted.

[G. N. Barkman]

Is God’s love for sinners a necessary component of the gospel that ought to be proclaimed to sinners? No. If it were, we wouldn’t have so much trouble finding examples of NT evangelists declaring God’s love when addressing the unconverted.

15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Some of you would make good pedo-baptists. We don’t need direct Biblical evidence to baptize infants, but can make inferences from OT circumcision and NT household baptisms.

Was this directed at me? If so, can you explain how this is relevant to anything I have said?

I have pointed to what seems an a pretty clear biblical example of using love in a gospel presentation. No inference needed. Even if it’s not the words of Jesus it is an evangelistic presentation by John (cf. John 20:31). So even if that is the only one, it is one, and I think once is enough with Scripture. I have also said that we don’t have a lot of evidence otherwise. That was my question: Do you think we have enough evidence to know what the “consistent evangelistic approach” was? Out of 70ish years of early church evangelism in the NT writing era, the evidence we have could be read in less than 30 minutes or so (generously speaking).

Second, it’s clearly not a violation of a biblical command or pattern while infant baptism is a violation of that.

So I am not clear on your point here. With baptism, we have explicit commands and examples of both the meaning and practice of baptism. So how is this comment connected to what I said?

As your quotes Aaron highlight, God’s love for sinners means Jesus came and died for sins. That is what God’s love for sinners means.

I am pointing out a lot of people think “God loves me” means “God accepts me” and “wants the best for me”, etc., even if I am not a believer.

I also submit that God loves believers in a way that He does not love unbelievers.

I am NOT saying that God does not love sinners, nor that He didn’t love us prior to saving us. (And hence his love bestowed upon unbelievers.) I am dealing with the “how” of evangelistic presentations only. That was the point of Mark’s comment that prompted my first post in this thread. I had to wrestle with this question many years ago. I grew up under the rather typical evangelistic approach that laid great emphasis upon telling sinners about God’s great love for them. There are some famous anecdotes about D. L. Moody re-directing his evangelistic approach to a major emphasis upon God’s love for sinners, and subsequently seeing much better results, etc.

Then I decided to do a personal study of how Christ and the Apostles preached to sinners. I studied every personal evangelistic encounter in the NT, plus every recorded evangelistic sermon to an audience. Surprise! It is virtually impossible to find an example of Christ, the Apostles, or anyone else proclaiming God’s love to unbelievers. That is not how they evangelized. Ignore this information if you think you have a better plan, but I believe we best please our Master by paying attention to the inspired record.

[G. N. Barkman]

I am NOT saying that God does not love sinners, nor that He didn’t love us prior to saving us. (And hence his love bestowed upon unbelievers.) I am dealing with the “how” of evangelistic presentations only. That was the point of Mark’s comment that prompted my first post in this thread. I had to wrestle with this question many years ago. I grew up under the rather typical evangelistic approach that laid great emphasis upon telling sinners about God’s great love for them. There are some famous anecdotes about D. L. Moody re-directing his evangelistic approach to a major emphasis upon God’s love for sinners, and subsequently seeing much better results, etc.

Then I decided to do a personal study of how Christ and the Apostles preached to sinners. I studied every personal evangelistic encounter in the NT, plus every recorded evangelistic sermon to an audience. Surprise! It is virtually impossible to find an example of Christ, the Apostles, or anyone else proclaiming God’s love to unbelievers. That is not how they evangelized. Ignore this information if you think you have a better plan, but I believe we best please our Master by paying attention to the inspired record.

Aaron, I am not questioning that love was the motive for salvation. It was. The Scriptures are clear. But that is a different issue than the question of how NT evangelists preached the gospel to sinners.

So, it’s the truth, but we’re not supposed to preach it?

I really think the debate is silly… or worse. The Great Commission is to make disciples, which involves teaching them the whole counsel of God. There isn’t any truth we have to be leery of declaring. And we’re not technicians engineering conversions.

[Aaron Blumer]

Aaron, I am not questioning that love was the motive for salvation. It was. The Scriptures are clear. But that is a different issue than the question of how NT evangelists preached the gospel to sinners.

So, it’s the truth, but we’re not supposed to preach it?

I really think the debate is silly… or worse. The Great Commission is to make disciples, which involves teaching them the whole counsel of God. There isn’t any truth we have to be leery of declaring. And we’re not technicians engineering conversions.

I spent a good bit of yesterday reading a ton of Scripture related to this. I would say the Bible uses the terms mercy, compassion, and grace towards unbelievers. Almost always the referred to unbelievers eventually believe! It is the elect being referred to. Still, there are enough verses that refer to grace, mercy, and compassion towards people who mock God to hold onto it. This love is God withholding His wrath. It is also God’s love that paid for sin.

The point, Aaron, is not what most people mean by love. If you go to the grocery store, find an unbeliever, and tell them “God loves you,” and then ask them what that means, they will not give you the biblical definition. They will think you are affirming who they are as a person, an emotion. That is not what the Bible means by God’s love. We need to be clear about that, because even a lot of people in the pews are very misled by the world’s view of love.

Exactly! That’s why we study the way Jesus and His apostles approached evangelism. Nobody preaches every Bible truth in evangelistic encounters. We choose those we believe are most helpful to evangelism. But how do we make our choices? Do we use our own wisdom, or do we seek guidance from the Scriptures?

I am simply pointing out that the love of God for sinners, glorious as it is, was not declared in the NT in evangelistic encounters. The one possible exception pointed out by both Larry and Rajesh is John 3:16. Maybe, or maybe not. But if so, we should observe that this is a general statement about God’s love for the world, not a direct statement of God’s love to the particular sinner. If these are, in fact,the words of Jesus to Nicodemus, He didn’t say, “Nicodemus, God loves you. Please understand how greatly God loves You.”

This may sound silly to some, but why? Is it silly to observe and be guided by the words of Scripture?

I studied every personal evangelistic encounter in the NT, plus every recorded evangelistic sermon to an audience.

This is what I mentioned above, I would be interested in this list. My guess is that it is a pretty short list. I haven’t compiled a list on this criteria so I would be interested to know what you have.

It is virtually impossible to find an example of Christ, the Apostles, or anyone else proclaiming God’s love to unbelievers.

Again, John 3:16 seems pretty clear. So how many examples do we need before it is acceptable?

„, I believe we best please our Master by paying attention to the inspired record.

I doubt anyone here disagrees with this.

“God loved the world in this way, He gave His unique Son that all who believe in Him would have eternal life.”-Mark Smith Translation

Yep, the love is expressed as offering salvation in Jesus Christ.

Once again, is this the typical definition of love? You have to teach this to your people. If you ask a person what does “God loves you” mean would they say “it is God offering me salvation in Jesus Christ”?

My study goes back four decades, so I don’t have the complete list in front of me, nor do I have the time at the moment to reproduce it. But off the top of my head, here are a few. (If you would take the time to do a study, I think you will find the list a good deal longer than you imagine.)

1) Nicodemus. 2) The woman at the well. 3) The rich young ruler. 4) The Bread of Life Discourse. 5) The Sermon on the Mount. 6) Peter’s sermon at Pentecost. 7) Peter’s sermon in the Temple. 8) Paul’s sermon at Lystra. 9) Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill. 10) Paul and the Philippian Jailer.

There are a good many more, but this should get us started. Did any of these encounters include the evangelist telling the unbeliever that “God loves you.”?

[G. N. Barkman]

My study goes back four decades, so I don’t have the complete list in front of me, nor do I have the time at the moment to reproduce it. But off the top of my head, here are a few. (If you would take the time to do a study, I think you will find the list a good deal longer than you imagine.)

1) Nicodemus. 2) The woman at the well. 3) The rich young ruler. 4) The Bread of Life Discourse. 5) The Sermon on the Mount. 6) Peter’s sermon at Pentecost. 7) Peter’s sermon in the Temple. 8) Paul’s sermon at Lystra. 9) Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill. 10) Paul and the Philippian Jailer.

There are a good many more, but this should get us started. Did any of these encounters include the evangelist telling the unbeliever that “God loves you.”?

Acts 2, 4, 5, 8, 13, 20, 24, 26, and 28 also either have evangelistic accounts or passages that have direct relevance to what we are to know or do concerning evangelism.