We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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[Kevin Miller]It will not be helpful to try to compare the two threads. I have set forth clearly in this thread positions concerning the relevant passages and issues. Continuing our interaction in this thread as it has developed will be far more profitable.This is one of those situations where you seem to be contradicting things that you’ve written earlier, so it leaves me wondering what you actually believe about the situation.
Scripture records what happened in the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal:
1 Kings 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. 26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Notice that the prophets of the false deity had specific practices when they called on their god(s) that were never part of what Israel’s godly prophets did when they called on Yahweh. The prophets of Baal leaped on their altar; they cut themselves after their manner until blood gushed out upon them.
Suppose, now, that Elijah had told the prophets of Baal that they could call on their god but they had to use Israelite protocols to do so. That is, they would not be allowed to leap on the altar, and in keeping with divine commands (cf. Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1), they would not be allowed to cut themselves in any manner as part of their rituals in calling on their god.
Would not these false prophets have objected strenuously that their god would not hear them because he was not being approached properly? They believed that their god had established forms that had to be used if he were to be pleased and successfully called upon by his worshipers.
The prophets of Baal would not willingly choose to incorporate practices of those whom they considered to be their wicked enemies (the godly Israelites) into their worship.
In the GCI, the idolaters turned back in their hearts to Egypt to their gods (Acts 7:39-41). They forgot God their Savior who had done great things in Egypt (Ps. 106:21). They plainly were not mindful of God when they were engaging in their idolatrous playing.
In keeping with what they knew from previous experience/exposure to such idolatrous worship and playing, the idolaters would choose to use forms that they believed were acceptable to their gods.
Why would they choose to engage in syncretistic worship by using Israelite musical styles when they had available their own worship music? To do so, would not be acceptable to their deities but would rather be an offense to them.
There is no basis for asserting that the idolatrous playing in the GCI used godly Israelite instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that were syncretistically directed to the idol.
Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
On what basis did the Levites that executed these 3000 people decide whom to execute? Did they randomly just chose them from the supposedly million or so idolaters who were either naked and/or wildly out-of-control at this time?
[Kevin Miller]A key statement that Moses made even prior to the Exodus provides explicit biblical data that does not support your line of reasoning concerning the idolaters using godly Israelite instrumental music to worship the idol:What I’ve been saying is that the group was going to use “music that meant worship” in order to practice worship. I don’t think Aaron had to impose upon them an idea of which music meant worship, since they already had music that meant worship. We don’t have any Israelite worship styles listed in the Bible, though we do have lists of instruments used. It does seem likely that they had a number of different styles of music that meant worship, some of which would be more lively than others.
Exodus 8:26 And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?
Moses made this statement in rejecting Pharaoh’s suggestion that they offer their sacrifices to the Lord in Egypt instead of going into the wilderness (Ex. 8:25). Moses testified that in some unspecified way or ways either what the Israelites would offer in sacrifice to the Lord or how they would offer it to Him or both would be abominable to the Egyptians. The Egyptians would have responded to such aspects of Israelite sacrifices offered in their midst by stoning the Israelites.
Moses here explicitly attests to the reality that at least some aspects of some Israelite worship “forms” concerning their sacrifices were abominations to the Egyptians. Therefore, the idolaters in the GCI who had forgotten God, turned back in their hearts again to Egypt, made their gods for them, offered sacrifices to their gods and then eaten what had been offered to them in a worship context, and come under strong demonic influence would have considered such Israelite worship forms to be abominations and would not have chosen to use them.
To say that this was true about certain things about Israelite sacrifices that were abominations to the Egyptians but it was not true of the Israelites’ instrumental worship music would be begging the question. To support such a position, one must provide evidence that the Bible teaches that Israelite instrumental worship music was acceptable to idolaters for use in their idolatrous worship of their gods.
[RajeshG]I can admit when I have made a partial error. I looked through the passage again, and there are two verses in which Moses mentions a feast to Pharaoh. There are other verses that mention sacrifices, but only two mention the feast. Looking back at previous posts, I see you mentioned them on page 10, so it’s exaggerating to say that it would take a lot of time to be “quoting all the verses.”No, it does not. I did not bother to quote all the times that Moses and Aaron did say explicitly to Pharaoh that they had to celebrate a feast to the Lord. This verse is directly connected to that. I’m not going to spend the time quoting all those verses; you can do that research yourself.
I’ve mainly been arguing about your insistence that Aaron was calling for the feast because of a God-given time schedule that he was following. You said this on page 9:
No one, not even Moses or Aaron, had the authority to decide on their own when the feasts to the Lord would take place. God determined everything about how He was to be worshiped.
When Aaron said, “To morrow is a feast to the LORD” (Ex. 32:5), he was not deciding on a whim to have the nation observe a feast; he was proclaiming what all the leadership of Israel would have known had been predetermined by God, and probably many of the people also knew that fact.
When Moses and Joshua were returning to the camp, Joshua would have been expecting to hear the joyful sound of people worshiping the Lord in a feast to the Lord.
So how exactly would all the leadership have known about this pre-determined timing? Moses didn’t tell Pharaoh about any timing to the feast, other than that the people would travel three days journey away before they had it. He didn’t say it would take place in 20 days or two months or anything like that. When talking about the sacrifices, Moses said they were going to get the information from God later about what sacrifices would be made. So I still completely stand by my previous statement when I said ” We have NO indication from any later passage that God had relayed the details that they were supposed to have a feast at a particular time or which livestock were to be sacrificed.” All the people, Aaron included, were waiting for Moses to give them indication that God had relayed the details. Once the details had been relayed, then all the people, men and women and children, were going to participate in the sacrifices/feast.
What is reported does not tell you everything that happened; in any case, the scheduled feast never took place because of their sinfulness but that does not change the fact that a feast was supposed to have taken place.
Yes, at some unspecified time, Moses was going to tell them when to have a feast. You’ve made it sound as if Aaron had no choice in calling for the feast at the time he did because God had previously scheduled it. You’ve never shown me a verse that tells me God had relayed the details for the feast to take place at the time Aaron called for it. You’re reasoning seems to be “Even though it was not reported in Scripture, we know it happened, because things happen that are not reported.” That reasoning lets you make up just about anything and claim it happened even though it was not reported.
My position is that I am not going to assume that Aaron had been given the details for the feast if the Bible puts Moses in charge of direct communication with God rather than Aaron. Since we have no indication that God gave either Moses or Aaron the details, then I can be quite confident in saying that Aaron called for this particular feast on his own authority.
[RajeshG]I answered this question all the way back on page 5. I’ll just cut and paste what I wrote then, since I still stand by it.1. Exodus 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
If one million people formed a mob and all gathered themselves together to Aaron and said this to him, who organized the mob and how exactly did they all say this to Aaron?
Of course, when “the people” approached Aaron in Ex. 32:1, it wouldn’t have been the entire 1 million coming to talk to him. It would have been sort of group of representatives. When the phrase “all the people ” is used on verse 3, it could have been referring to all the representatives, but the number of people who could talk to Aaron at one time would hardly be enough people to have enough earrings to make a whole calf. It’s much more logical for “all the people” to be referring to the larger group. Additionally, when God spoke to Moses up in the mountain about the situation, God did so in a way that implicated the whole nation and not just a ragtag few. In verse 7, God said ““Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.” God then was going to destroy the entire nation and set Moses up as the head of a new nation. It was only through Moses’ pleading that “the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.” (v. 14)
[RajeshG]You say they were sinful because they stood by. Do you have a verse that says standing by while others sin is a sin? I’m not saying it isn’t. I’m thinking you have a valid point here, but I’m curious about specific verses that might apply, since I can’t discuss the point without having specific verses to discuss it with. I’m thinking that if one stands by, that is a form of encouraging sin, and encouraging idolatry would make one guilty of idolatry, wouldn’t it? Aaron, at least, went well beyond simply standing by. He was the one responsible for fashioning the idol itself. You asked me what kind of tools he used and whether he was skilled in making idols, but hose questions are beside the point. If I can’t answer those, does that mean he didn’t really make the idol, even though the Bible said he fashioned it? In my opinion, he could have ordered a skilled gold-worker to make the idol and he still would have been responsible for fashioning it since he gave the order. The Bible doesn’t give the specific details, so I’m not going to try to make some up. Even if standing by doesn’t constitute idolatry, surely the fashioning of the idol to be used would constitute idolatry, wouldn’t it? If not why not?Truly righteous people would have fought against Aaron’s making the calf in the first place and their offering sacrifices to it on the next day. They would have stopped the perverted playing from happening in the first place. They would have done what the sons of Levi finally did when Moses finally came back on the scene (Ex. 32:26-28).
I do not buy that all the people actually committed idolatry themselves. All of them were complicit in the sin because there does not seem to be any indication that anyone tried to oppose what took place.
The entire nation was responsible for what happened in that those who did not engage in idolatrous worship themselves nonetheless failed to stop the others from doing so. They were sinful because they stood by and allowed this horrifically sinful event to take place.
When we talk about the people being “out of control,” whose control are we talking about? In Exodus 24:7-8 we read, 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” The people had made a covenant with God to obey Him and thus be under God’s control. Committing idolatry was a refusal to live under God’s control. Allowing idolatry to take place in their midst was also a refusal to abide under God’s control. Fashioning the idol was also acting outside of God’s control. God surely did not approve of Aaron making the idol.
[RajeshG]So are you telling me then that you have changed your position from the previous thread? Is that why it is not helpful to compare the two threads? Even in this thread, you have insisted that the basis for the feast was the instructions from God that the people were to have a feast to the Lord. It’s been my understanding ever since that old thread that your position is that the idol was supposed to represent the Lord. If that is no longer the case, then it would be useful for me to know that while continuing the discussion in this thread.It will not be helpful to try to compare the two threads. I have set forth clearly in this thread positions concerning the relevant passages and issues. Continuing our interaction in this thread as it has developed will be far more profitable.
[RajeshG]I don’t think the prophets of Baal account has much to do with our current discussion. When I tried comparing “Aaron made the people naked” to “Ahaz made Judah naked,” you told me I was using a verse from “another context” that wouldn’t have the same meaning in the first context. I see the prophets of Baal account as a different context from the GCI. For one thing, the prophets of Baal account doesn’t even mention music. If they did have music playing, it would have been normal prophets of Baal worship music. The GCI involved the Children of Israel. If we are going to make some sort of analogy, then we’d have to say that whatever music was used in the GCI would have been normal Children of Israel worship music.Scripture records what happened in the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal:
1 Kings 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. 26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Notice that the prophets of the false deity had specific practices when they called on their god(s) that were never part of what Israel’s godly prophets did when they called on Yahweh. The prophets of Baal leaped on their altar; they cut themselves after their manner until blood gushed out upon them.
Suppose, now, that Elijah had told the prophets of Baal that they could call on their god but they had to use Israelite protocols to do so. That is, they would not be allowed to leap on the altar, and in keeping with divine commands (cf. Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1), they would not be allowed to cut themselves in any manner as part of their rituals in calling on their god.
Would not these false prophets have objected strenuously that their god would not hear them because he was not being approached properly? They believed that their god had established forms that had to be used if he were to be pleased and successfully called upon by his worshipers.
The prophets of Baal would not willingly choose to incorporate practices of those whom they considered to be their wicked enemies (the godly Israelites) into their worship.
In the GCI, the idolaters turned back in their hearts to Egypt to their gods (Acts 7:39-41). They forgot God their Savior who had done great things in Egypt (Ps. 106:21). They plainly were not mindful of God when they were engaging in their idolatrous playing.
In keeping with what they knew from previous experience/exposure to such idolatrous worship and playing, the idolaters would choose to use forms that they believed were acceptable to their gods.
Why would they choose to engage in syncretistic worship by using Israelite musical styles when they had available their own worship music? To do so, would not be acceptable to their deities but would rather be an offense to them.
There is no basis for asserting that the idolatrous playing in the GCI used godly Israelite instrumental, singing, and dancing styles that were syncretistically directed to the idol.
This post provides an opportunity to ask a question about the “meaning” of music. How specific does “meaning” get in music with unheard words? I know there is shouting in the prophets of Baal account, but we don’t know if there was a harmonic element to their shouting so we can’t claim that it was music. The meaning of shouting is pretty much determined by the words that are used in the shouting, isn’t it? If the words shouted are praises to Baal, then that would be evil shouting, but if the words are praises to God, then that would be righteous shouting. Is there a difference in the sound between righteous shouting and evil shouting when heard from a distance? Does there need to be more of a “composite sound” for the entire sound to be considered evil or righteous? If the entire composite sound is all instrumental, then what “meaning” can be determined from the sound? Is the meaning based upon the “emotion” that the music invokes in us, and therefore since some emotions can be evil, then that music invoking evil emotions would be evil? Specific to our GCI discussion, you have mentioned the “sound of war” as that which gives an evil meaning to music. How exactly does a “sound of war” make music displeasing to God. You’ve also mentioned sounds being “uncertain,” but I’m not sure exactly how that applies to a musical composite sound. If a trumpeter blows three quick blasts, but no one knows what three quick blasts mean, then the sound would be “uncertain,” but that wouldn’t make three quick blasts evil. Would it?
I know you will likely not want to get into this “meaning” discussion at the present time, but that doesn’t mean I can’t have this discussion with anyone else who might want to present their opinion.
[Kevin Miller]I’m not going to discuss the previous thread at all or any comparative observations that you may wish to make between them. I have stated plainly in this thread that they were not at all directing what they did to the Lord.So are you telling me then that you have changed your position from the previous thread? Is that why it is not helpful to compare the two threads? Even in this thread, you have insisted that the basis for the feast was the instructions from God that the people were to have a feast to the Lord. It’s been my understanding ever since that old thread that your position is that the idol was supposed to represent the Lord. If that is no longer the case, then it would be useful for me to know that while continuing the discussion in this thread.
[Kevin Miller]If you think that God has given us an exhaustive account of all that He said and did in relation to His people anywhere in the Bible, you have a wrong understanding of what is in the Bible.I can admit when I have made a partial error. I looked through the passage again, and there are two verses in which Moses mentions a feast to Pharaoh. There are other verses that mention sacrifices, but only two mention the feast. Looking back at previous posts, I see you mentioned them on page 10, so it’s exaggerating to say that it would take a lot of time to be “quoting all the verses.”
I’ve mainly been arguing about your insistence that Aaron was calling for the feast because of a God-given time schedule that he was following. You said this on page 9:
No one, not even Moses or Aaron, had the authority to decide on their own when the feasts to the Lord would take place. God determined everything about how He was to be worshiped.
When Aaron said, “To morrow is a feast to the LORD” (Ex. 32:5), he was not deciding on a whim to have the nation observe a feast; he was proclaiming what all the leadership of Israel would have known had been predetermined by God, and probably many of the people also knew that fact.
When Moses and Joshua were returning to the camp, Joshua would have been expecting to hear the joyful sound of people worshiping the Lord in a feast to the Lord.
So how exactly would all the leadership have known about this pre-determined timing? Moses didn’t tell Pharaoh about any timing to the feast, other than that the people would travel three days journey away before they had it. He didn’t say it would take place in 20 days or two months or anything like that. When talking about the sacrifices, Moses said they were going to get the information from God later about what sacrifices would be made. So I still completely stand by my previous statement when I said ” We have NO indication from any later passage that God had relayed the details that they were supposed to have a feast at a particular time or which livestock were to be sacrificed.” All the people, Aaron included, were waiting for Moses to give them indication that God had relayed the details. Once the details had been relayed, then all the people, men and women and children, were going to participate in the sacrifices/feast.
Yes, at some unspecified time, Moses was going to tell them when to have a feast. You’ve made it sound as if Aaron had no choice in calling for the feast at the time he did because God had previously scheduled it. You’ve never shown me a verse that tells me God had relayed the details for the feast to take place at the time Aaron called for it. You’re reasoning seems to be “Even though it was not reported in Scripture, we know it happened, because things happen that are not reported.” That reasoning lets you make up just about anything and claim it happened even though it was not reported.
My position is that I am not going to assume that Aaron had been given the details for the feast if the Bible puts Moses in charge of direct communication with God rather than Aaron. Since we have no indication that God gave either Moses or Aaron the details, then I can be quite confident in saying that Aaron called for this particular feast on his own authority.
In the statement that Aaron made, there is no verb in the Hebrew.
Exodus 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
Most modern translators supply a verb without even showing that fact and render it as if Aaron were making a declarative proclamation of what he was determining would take place. As the KJV does, there is no need to render the verse in that way. Aaron was not making a declaration of what he had decided. He was simply stating what was predetermined to take place.
In any case, further discussion of this specific point is not going to go anywhere so we will have to leave it there.
[Kevin Miller]You seem to have missed my point with the prophets of Baal comparison. I am not making any direct comparison between the two accounts in the specifics of any similar things that may or may not have taken place in both accounts.I don’t think the prophets of Baal account has much to do with our current discussion. When I tried comparing “Aaron made the people naked” to “Ahaz made Judah naked,” you told me I was using a verse from “another context” that wouldn’t have the same meaning in the first context. I see the prophets of Baal account as a different context from the GCI. For one thing, the prophets of Baal account doesn’t even mention music. If they did have music playing, it would have been normal prophets of Baal worship music. The GCI involved the Children of Israel. If we are going to make some sort of analogy, then we’d have to say that whatever music was used in the GCI would have been normal Children of Israel worship music.
I am saying that this biblical passage documents that idolatrous worshipers did have practices in their approaching their gods (leaping on the altar, cutting themselves) that were ungodly and were not permissible for Israelites to engage in. Had Elijah demanded that they not approach their god in their ways that they believed he required, they would have balked.
Similarly, idolaters had their own music that they would want to use when worshiping their gods. Israelite music would not have been their music. Therefore, they would not have chosen to use Israelite music.
[Kevin Miller]Scripture is clear that when a leader fails to restrain people whom he knows to be sinful, he is sinning.You say they were sinful because they stood by. Do you have a verse that says standing by while others sin is a sin? I’m not saying it isn’t. I’m thinking you have a valid point here, but I’m curious about specific verses that might apply, since I can’t discuss the point without having specific verses to discuss it with. I’m thinking that if one stands by, that is a form of encouraging sin, and encouraging idolatry would make one guilty of idolatry, wouldn’t it?
1 Samuel 3:13 For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.
God fiercely judge Eli because he knew of the sinfulness of his sons but did not restrain them.
Concerning the GCI, Aaron was not the only leader left among all the people in the absence of Moses and Joshua. Moses had appointed judges over the people (Exod. 18:25-26). There were other priests over the people (Ex. 19:22, 24), especially Aaron’s sons (Ex. 28:1). All of these had responsibilities to God and to the people to deal with them when they were sinful.
All of them had received plain instruction from God that they were not to make any idols or worship them (Exod. 20; etc.).
[Kevin Miller]Of course, Aaron was guilty of idolatry in making the idol. There is no evidence, however, that he participated in the actual idolatrous worship, eating, and playing that took place the next day.Aaron, at least, went well beyond simply standing by. He was the one responsible for fashioning the idol itself. You asked me what kind of tools he used and whether he was skilled in making idols, but hose questions are beside the point. If I can’t answer those, does that mean he didn’t really make the idol, even though the Bible said he fashioned it? In my opinion, he could have ordered a skilled gold-worker to make the idol and he still would have been responsible for fashioning it since he gave the order. The Bible doesn’t give the specific details, so I’m not going to try to make some up. Even if standing by doesn’t constitute idolatry, surely the fashioning of the idol to be used would constitute idolatry, wouldn’t it? If not why not?
[Kevin Miller]Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.When we talk about the people being “out of control,” whose control are we talking about? In Exodus 24:7-8 we read, 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” The people had made a covenant with God to obey Him and thus be under God’s control. Committing idolatry was a refusal to live under God’s control. Allowing idolatry to take place in their midst was also a refusal to abide under God’s control. Fashioning the idol was also acting outside of God’s control. God surely did not approve of Aaron making the idol.
Aaron did not fail to restrain the people just by his allowing them to make an idol and worship it. He also failed to deal with them concerning their idolatrous playing. Exodus 32:25 speaks of what was true of the people even after Moses had destroyed the idol (Exod. 32:20)—they were still out-of-control.
What Moses did in response to what he saw by declaring that the Lord had ordained the slaying of these wildly out-of-control people implies what Aaron should have done but failed to do.
Moreover, your view that everyone actually participated in the idolatry fails to explain why the sons of Levi only executed 3000 people out of the million that supposedly were naked and/or wildly out-of-control at this time.
[Kevin Miller]I have never said that the meaning of music is “based upon the ‘emotions’ that the music invokes in us.” The specific point that I have made in this thread is that had this been a godly feast to the Lord, the composite sound emanating from the camp would have been accurately discernible from afar as the sound of joy, as it was in Nehemiah’s day (Neh. 12:43). Neither Moses nor Joshua identified it as such, which shows that the music was not music that was acceptable to God for a feast to the Lord.Is the meaning based upon the “emotion” that the music invokes in us, and therefore since some emotions can be evil, then that music invoking evil emotions would be evil?
[Kevin Miller]No, I did not say that the “sound of war” is that which gives an evil meaning to music or makes it displeasing to God. What I have said is that the music for a godly feast to the Lord would have been a sound of joy that would have been accurately identified as such by both Moses and Joshua. Had this been the composite sound of joy emanating from a godly feast to the Lord, Joshua would never have identified it as an indistinct sound of war.
Specific to our GCI discussion, you have mentioned the “sound of war” as that which gives an evil meaning to music. How exactly does a “sound of war” make music displeasing to God.
[Kevin Miller]A musical composite sound of a supposed feast to the Lord that is not the certain and plainly identifiable (even from a distance) sound of joy is not the godly sound of a godly feast to the Lord.You’ve also mentioned sounds being “uncertain,” but I’m not sure exactly how that applies to a musical composite sound. If a trumpeter blows three quick blasts, but no one knows what three quick blasts mean, then the sound would be “uncertain,” but that wouldn’t make three quick blasts evil. Would it?
[RajeshG]I’ve never said that God has given us an exhaustive account. My point is that we as readers cannot claim that something happened as part of an account if God hasn’t told us it happened. Many things could have happened that we are not told about, but if we state as fact that something happened, we’d better have biblical support for the fact statement. I still see no reason to assume that the feast Moses was planning was the same feast as Aaron announced. When you say “There is no need to render the verse in that way,” you are simply saying “There is more than one way to render the verse.” True, there is. So it totally astounds me that you keep on insisting something as fact simply because we don’t need to translate it a certain way. That is hardly indicative of biblical support.If you think that God has given us an exhaustive account of all that He said and did in relation to His people anywhere in the Bible, you have a wrong understanding of what is in the Bible.
In the statement that Aaron made, there is no verb in the Hebrew.
Exodus 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
Most modern translators supply a verb without even showing that fact and render it as if Aaron were making a declarative proclamation of what he was determining would take place. As the KJV does, there is no need to render the verse in that way. Aaron was not making a declaration of what he had decided. He was simply stating what was predetermined to take place.
In any case, further discussion of this specific point is not going to go anywhere so we will have to leave it there.
[RajeshG]Since the prophets of Baal incident doesn’t include any mention of music, then I was wondering what your point of comparison was. I’m sure the prophets of Baal had specific ways that they approached their gods in their specific point of time in their culture. The Israelites also had specific ways that they approached worship, and the GCI involved a group of Israelite idolaters. You claim it was primarily the mixed multitude, but that opinion is not coming from any direct verse in the passage.You seem to have missed my point with the prophets of Baal comparison. I am not making any direct comparison between the two accounts in the specifics of any similar things that may or may not have taken place in both accounts.
I am saying that this biblical passage documents that idolatrous worshipers did have practices in their approaching their gods (leaping on the altar, cutting themselves) that were ungodly and were not permissible for Israelites to engage in. Had Elijah demanded that they not approach their god in their ways that they believed he required, they would have balked.
Similarly, idolaters had their own music that they would want to use when worshiping their gods. Israelite music would not have been their music. Therefore, they would not have chosen to use Israelite music.
We have no indication of the style of music used by these idolaters, so, as I said in my last post, “we as readers cannot claim that something happened as part of an account if God hasn’t told us it happened. Many things could have happened that we are not told about, but if we state as fact that something happened, we’d better have biblical support for the fact statement.” You are telling me as a statement of fact that they did not use their normal worship music as they sacrificed to the golden calf, but there is no way to know that from the passage itself. The music could have been any style.
[RajeshG]Of course, Aaron was guilty of idolatry in making the idol. There is no evidence, however, that he participated in the actual idolatrous worship, eating, and playing that took place the next day.
That’s just splitting hairs, isn’t it? If you’re guilty of idolatry, you’re guilty of idolatry.
Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.He didn’t execute more than 3000, because he had talked God out of wiping out all the people. Do you really think he would talk God out of wiping out all the people and then go and do so himself?Aaron did not fail to restrain the people just by his allowing them to make an idol and worship it. He also failed to deal with them concerning their idolatrous playing. Exodus 32:25 speaks of what was true of the people even after Moses had destroyed the idol (Exod. 32:20)—they were still out-of-control.
What Moses did in response to what he saw by declaring that the Lord had ordained the slaying of these wildly out-of-control people implies what Aaron should have done but failed to do.
Moreover, your view that everyone actually participated in the idolatry fails to explain why the sons of Levi only executed 3000 people out of the million that supposedly were naked and/or wildly out-of-control at this time.
You said “Aaron did not fail to restrain the people just by his allowing them to make an idol and worship it.” Are you saying he allowed the people to make the idol? What does the Bible say about who fashioned the idol? It was Aaron himself who made the idol. He didn’t just allow the people. It was Aaron who actually built the altar in front of the calf. He didn’t just allow the people. Did people normally sacrifice in those days without the help of a priest? I don’t believe so. The passage doesn’t specifically say that Aaron led the sacrificing, so I’m not going to definitively assert that he did, but after fashioning the idol and building the altar, he was just one step away from actually performing the act of sacrificing himself
Also I never said all one million people were naked or wildly out of control. Is it just the use of that one Hebrew word that gives you the impression that people were running wildly without clothes on? Worshipping an idol was plenty enough reason for Moses to get furious and order executions. Being without clothes is just one possible interpretation of the Hebrew concept. We know that they were dancing, but dancing was a normal part of Israelite worship, so we can’t really say from the passage what the dancing at this particular time looked like. It could have been very orderly dancing, and Moses still would have been furious upon seeing it directed to an idol.
[RajeshG]I never said that you said this. I was simply asking a question to try to discern how to distinguish what music means. How does music communicate to us? If it is not through our emotions, then is the meaning found through whatever use we may make of music at any particular time?I have never said that the meaning of music is “based upon the ‘emotions’ that the music invokes in us.” The specific point that I have made in this thread is that had this been a godly feast to the Lord, the composite sound emanating from the camp would have been accurately discernible from afar as the sound of joy, as it was in Nehemiah’s day (Neh. 12:43). Neither Moses nor Joshua identified it as such, which shows that the music was not music that was acceptable to God for a feast to the Lord.
No, I did not say that the “sound of war” is that which gives an evil meaning to music or makes it displeasing to God. What I have said is that the music for a godly feast to the Lord would have been a sound of joy that would have been accurately identified as such by both Moses and Joshua. Had this been the composite sound of joy emanating from a godly feast to the Lord, Joshua would never have identified it as an indistinct sound of war.How do you know this? Do you know somehow what a “sound of joy” sounded like from a distance? For all we know, their “sounds of joy” would actually sound like war to someone who wasn’t expecting any sounds to be coming from camp. The passage simply doesn’t say, so we can’t make definitive assertions about whether their normal worship music might ever have the same characteristics as a “sound of war” from a distance.
You didn’t answer as to whether three quick blasts that had no discernable meaning would be an uncertain sound that is displeasing to the Lord. Your statement didn’t even come close to being a direct answer to my question. I understand that you often just want to make your own points without answering my questions, but why include my question above your statemnt if you’re not even going to be answering the question?A musical composite sound of a supposed feast to the Lord that is not the certain and plainly identifiable (even from a distance) sound of joy is not the godly sound of a godly feast to the Lord.
The specific point that I have made in this thread is that had this been a godly feast to the Lord, the composite sound emanating from the camp would have been accurately discernible from afar as the sound of joy, as it was in Nehemiah’s day (Neh. 12:43). Neither Moses nor Joshua identified it as such, which shows that the music was not music that was acceptable to God for a feast to the Lord.
What exactly is the “sound of joy”, Rajesh? What criteria can we use to differentiate between the “sound of joy” and other sounds that are not pleasant to God to hear? How does this correspond with the broken-heartedness of books like Lamentations or the angry, vengeance-driven Psalms?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Kevin Miller]No, the music could not have been any style. Had it been joyful, godly Israelite music, Moses as the Spirit-filled prophet who had supernatural abilities would certainly have discerned its godly quality from afar and said that it was the sound of joy fitting for a feast to the Lord. A feast, by definition, was a time of joyful celebration. God commands repeatedly that people worship with a shout of joy (Ps. 32:11; 66:1; and many other passages). These people shouted in their singing, but their shout was not the shout of joy that God demands. This was not godly Israelite music.Since the prophets of Baal incident doesn’t include any mention of music, then I was wondering what your point of comparison was. I’m sure the prophets of Baal had specific ways that they approached their gods in their specific point of time in their culture. The Israelites also had specific ways that they approached worship, and the GCI involved a group of Israelite idolaters. You claim it was primarily the mixed multitude, but that opinion is not coming from any direct verse in the passage.
We have no indication of the style of music used by these idolaters, so, as I said in my last post, “we as readers cannot claim that something happened as part of an account if God hasn’t told us it happened. Many things could have happened that we are not told about, but if we state as fact that something happened, we’d better have biblical support for the fact statement.” You are telling me as a statement of fact that they did not use their normal worship music as they sacrificed to the golden calf, but there is no way to know that from the passage itself. The music could have been any style.
[Kevin Miller]No, it is not. If Aaron offered the sacrifices, he would have come into fellowship with demons and partnered with them. That is something far beyond making the idol but not actually sacrificing to it.That’s just splitting hairs, isn’t it? If you’re guilty of idolatry, you’re guilty of idolatry.
[Kevin Miller]That does not explain why only 3000 were executed instead of 50000 or 300,000, etc. You often ask me to explain details. Explain in detail why only 3000 were executed and how the sons of Levi decided which people to execute.He didn’t execute more than 3000, because he had talked God out of wiping out all the people. Do you really think he would talk God out of wiping out all the people and then go and do so himself?
[Kevin Miller]Let’s look at what the Bible says about who made the idol:You said “Aaron did not fail to restrain the people just by his allowing them to make an idol and worship it.” Are you saying he allowed the people to make the idol? What does the Bible say about who fashioned the idol? It was Aaron himself who made the idol. He didn’t just allow the people. [underlining added to original]
1. Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
2. Exodus 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
3. Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
4. Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
5. Exodus 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
6. Deuteronomy 9:12 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
7. Deuteronomy 9:16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
8. Deuteronomy 9:21 And I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, even until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.
9. Nehemiah 9:18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;
10. Psalm 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image. 20 Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass. 21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
11. Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Out of the 11 passages that speak of who made the calf, Aaron is mentioned specifically as the one who made the calf once by himself and twice in conjunction with the people.
In all the other 8 occurrences, the people are the ones who are said explicitly to have made the calf. Of the 5 statements in Exodus 32, the Spirit says 4x that the people made the calf. All 3x in Deut. 9, it is the people who made the calf. Both Neh. 9 and Ps. 106 only say that the people made the calf. Acts 7 says directly that the people made the calf.
By my count, the Spirit explicitly says 10x that the people made the calf and does so in all 5 books that talk about the making of the calf. So who does the Spirit stress as the one(s) who made the calf?
Why has He done so?
[Kevin Miller]Also I never said all one million people were naked or wildly out of control. Is it just the use of that one Hebrew word that gives you the impression that people were running wildly without clothes on? Worshipping an idol was plenty enough reason for Moses to get furious and order executions. Being without clothes is just one possible interpretation of the Hebrew concept.
KJV Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
NAU Exodus 32:25 Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control— for Aaron had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies—
NET Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild, for Aaron had let them get completely out of control, causing derision from their enemies.
NKJ Exodus 32:25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies),
CSB Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them get out of control, resulting in weakness before their enemies.
ESV Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies),
NIV Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
NLT Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that Aaron had let the people get completely out of control, much to the amusement of their enemies.
[Kevin Miller]Also I never said all one million people were naked or wildly out of control. Is it just the use of that one Hebrew word that gives you the impression that people were running wildly without clothes on? Worshipping an idol was plenty enough reason for Moses to get furious and order executions. Being without clothes is just one possible interpretation of the Hebrew concept.
Holladay, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HOL)
Hol6962
פָּרַע: qal: pf. פּ׳, פְּרָעֹה; impf. יִפְרָֽע, אֶפְרַע, תִּפְרְעוּ, תִּפְרָֽעוּ; impv. פְּרָעֵהוּ; inf. פְּרוֹעַ; pt. פּוֹרֵעַ, pass. פָּרֻעַ: — 1. let s.one )hang( loose Jb 3324 (if mss. correct); oft. w. rœ°š let the hair of the head hang loose Lv 106; untie (or unbraid) the hair Nu 518; cogn. acc. Ju 52; — 2. w. acc. let s.one go out of control, run wild Ex 3225; — 3. w. acc. ignore, neglect Pr 125.
From the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis:
“The basic sense of the word (to loose) may be seen in a variety of related nuances. Sometimes the word suggests the lifting of prior social restraint from people, as when Aaron allowed the Israelites to run wild in the absence of Moses” (Vol. 3, 690).
From the NET Bible:
54 tn The word is difficult to interpret. There does not seem to be enough evidence to justify the KJV’s translation “naked.” It appears to mean something like “let loose” or “lack restraint” (Pro 29:18). The idea seems to be that the people had broken loose, were undisciplined, and were completely given over to their desires.
[Kevin Miller]What is your explanation for how enough animals were properly sacrificed on one altar to feed one million people in less than even one day?It was Aaron who actually built the altar in front of the calf. He didn’t just allow the people. Did people normally sacrifice in those days without the help of a priest? I don’t believe so. The passage doesn’t specifically say that Aaron led the sacrificing, so I’m not going to definitively assert that he did, but after fashioning the idol and building the altar, he was just one step away from actually performing the act of sacrificing himself
[Kevin Miller]God’s Spirit-filled chief prophet, Moses, who had supernatural abilities to discern things did not say that it was the sound of joy. We have an explicit passage that says what their normal worship music sounded like from a distance (Neh. 12) and it does not say that it sounded like war at all. You do not have any Bible to support your assertions that their normal worship music ever sounded like the sound of war from a distance.How do you know this? Do you know somehow what a “sound of joy” sounded like from a distance? For all we know, their “sounds of joy” would actually sound like war to someone who wasn’t expecting any sounds to be coming from camp. The passage simply doesn’t say, so we can’t make definitive assertions about whether their normal worship music might ever have the same characteristics as a “sound of war” from a distance.
[RajeshG]When David sinfully numbered the people, God put to death 70,000 people who had not done anything to contribute to his sin (2 Sam. 24:15), yet you would have us believe that 1,000,000 people themselves actually committed a great sin against God and yet God only had 3000 people executed. You have not provided any viable explanation for why God supposedly did this.That does not explain why only 3000 were executed instead of 50000 or 300,000, etc. You often ask me to explain details. Explain in detail why only 3000 were executed and how the sons of Levi decided which people to execute.
Kevin, you have repeatedly made remarks similar to the following quotes at various times in this thread. Earlier, you said this:
[Kevin Miller]
I see you’re still not responding to the specific question I asked. Why would you respond about what demons would want to do when I asked you if anything prevented them from doing something? Demons want to make ungodly composite sounds, don’t they? Does something prevent them from using godly music with wicked lyrics to spite God? Asking me a bunch of questions about “equal” or “less” sinfulness does not give me the information I need to understand your position. I’ve made no claims about equal or less sinfulness. [bold and underlining added to original by RG]
Here you make a similar remark:
[Kevin Miller]As I see it, your basic contention has been that demons would desire the normal worship music of Israel directed to an idol more than they would want ungodly pagan music directed to an idol. Their reason for wanting this is because Satan wants to be worshiped in the same way that God is. In your view, it seems that this would be Satan’s ultimate objective.The specific sin, as we know from 1 Cor 10, is idolatry. For a nation that was supposed to be proclaiming the ONE TRUE GOD to all the surrounding nations, an incident of blatant idolatry would be a shame that would last for years and years. This sinfulness and shame would exist whether or not any particular style of music was used. In my view, using their normal worship music to worship an idol would be even more shameful than using Egyptian music. [underlining added to original by RG]
Your statements in this thread seem also to imply that you think that this may be what would be the most offensive to God.
Scripture does not support any of these viewpoints that you either hold or may hold. To see how, consider what the Antichrist will do some day when he enters the temple of God. Empowered by the devil himself (2 Thess. 2:9), the Antichrist will do precisely what the devil wants done in the temple of God.
He will set himself up as being God in the temple of God (2 Thess. 2:3-4) because he and the devil want to be worshiped as God. According to your view, what would most please the devil is that all the normal Israelite worship that is directed to the true God be directed instead to the Antichrist and through him, the devil.
Scripture, however, says that this is not what the Antichrist will do. He will stop the normal, godly Israelite daily sacrifices (Dan. 8:11, 13; 9:27; 12:11) and instead he will set up the abomination of desolation (Dan. 8:13; 9:27; 12:11; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14). Scripture itself thus directly refutes the view that you have been setting forth in various ways in this thread that keeping the godly worship the same but directing it to an idol and through it the devil is what would be the most satisfying to the devil and his demons.
What the Antichrist will do under the direction of the devil is to defile the temple of God maximally not only by changing the object of worship but also by stopping the use of godly worship forms and instituting the use of ungodly worship forms. It simply is not true that keeping the worship forms godly but directing them to an ungodly object of worship is worse than or even as equally bad as using ungodly worship forms and directing them to an ungodly object of worship.
In the way explained above, not only does the Bible not support your views, it directly refutes them. The demons who were controlling the idolaters in the GCI therefore did not direct them to use godly Israelite worship music in their idolatrous worship of and playing to the idol. In keeping with the nature of demons, they perverted every aspect of what took place in the GCI to the maximum extent possible so that the devil would be maximally pleased and God would be maximally offended.
There is no basis for saying that the idolaters in the GCI even possibly used godly Israelite instrumental music, singing, and dancing in their idolatrous playing.
Scripture provides information about a man who was naked and wildly out-of-control because he was under strong demonic influence:
Mark 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
Luke 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
God informs us that this man who was for a long time a demoniac was completely naked and wildly out-of-control. After Jesus had exorcised the demons from him, the man was “sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind” (Mark 5:15; cf. Luke 8:35).
This revelation shows us what demons who controlled a human being did in afflicting him. Because of the strong demonic influence on this man, he was naked and wildly out-of-control.
In the GCI, Moses saw that the idolaters who were under strong demonic influence were naked and/or wildly out-of-control (Exod. 32:25). Because these exceedingly sinful people were in that humanly irremediable state, God ordered their immediate execution through His faithful leader Moses after he had arrived on the scene (Exod. 32:26-28).
The sons of Levi did not randomly execute approximately 3000 people (Exod. 32:28); the people who were under strong demonic influence were unmistakably identifiable by their shamefully playing while being naked and/or wildly out-of-control. These people who had been playing in such perverse and shameful ways that even the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of them were immediately put to death for their bringing such open shame to the name of God.
God’s use of all the sons of Levi to execute the 3000 people (Ex. 32:26-29) strongly points to the Levites not having participated in consuming the idolatrous sacrifices or engaging in the idolatrous playing.
On the day after that the sons of Levi had executed the 3000 people (Ex. 32:28), Moses again interceded for the people (Exod. 32:30-32). God responded to Him (Exod. 32:33-34) and then plagued the people for their having made the calf that Aaron made (Exod. 32:35).
This additional judgment from God shows that it was not only the 3000 who were executed who had sinned greatly in the GCI. We know that God did not annihilate all the remaining people when He plagued them, but we do not have any revelation to know on what basis God plagued some of the people but spared the rest.
Because God has not revealed the extent of this judgment, we do not know how many more people died as a result of this plague. Because these people who died from the plague had not been executed by the Levites on the previous day, we infer that they had not sinned to the same extent as those who were executed.
Profiting fully from what God has revealed in 1 Corinthians 10 and the GCI passages requires careful consideration of applications at least at 3 levels:
1. To believers who had at least the Pentateuch accessible to them and lived prior to the writing of First Corinthians
2. To believers prior to our time who lived after the writing of First Corinthians
3. To believers in our time
Level One Applications
Believers who had at least the Pentateuch but not the rest of the OT had Exodus 32, Deuteronomy 9 and two other key passages to guide them:
Leviticus 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
These two passages show that Moses knew that the people had sacrificed to demons and not to God. What’s more, as a prophet of God, Moses certainly would have known this truth about what really happened in the GCI—even prior to his writing these books—at the very time that it was taking place.
What is especially noteworthy is that Deuteronomy 32:1-43 is a divinely inspired song that God gave to admonish His people about their sinfulness, including His people’s sacrificing to demons.
From this examination, we learn that God wanted His people to understand and flee the dangers of idolatrous playing from the time of the GCI on and not just after Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 10:7.
Moreover, He commanded that they had to sing Deut. 32 to warn themselves continually of the dangers of sacrificing to demons.
Knowing these dangers, including especially what happened in the GCI, God’s people who were faithful to Him would never have permitted or accepted believers’ borrowing any musical forms from the wicked music of idolaters and incorporating those forms into their worship of Yahweh.
[RajeshG]Wait a minute. Moses had supernatural abilities? Where do you get that idea from? I know that at the end of his life, Deut 34:7 says ” Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.” So he had supernatural longevity to his ordinary human abilities, but the Scriptures don’t say that he had super-enhanced hearing of some kind, or super strength for that matter. If anything, Joshua could have had bad hearing.Had it been joyful, godly Israelite music, Moses as the Spirit-filled prophet who had supernatural abilities would certainly have discerned its godly quality from afar and said that it was the sound of joy fitting for a feast to the Lord.
[RajeshG]No, it is not. If Aaron offered the sacrifices, he would have come into fellowship with demons and partnered with them. That is something far beyond making the idol but not actually sacrificing to it.
Does the passage actually say who was performing the sacrifices? No it doesn’t, so I’m not going to definitive assert it was Aaron. But I am also not going to definitively assert that it wasn’t Aaron either, since the passage doesn’t say who did it. As for the experience of being “in fellowship with demons,” you know that I don’t hold to the same inescapable, wildly out of control, almost possessed experience that you ascribe to fellowship with demons. (Seeing as how we have rehashed a number of other topics, I guess it’s about time we turned back to the “fellowship with demons” part of the discussion.)
[RajeshG]I know in our previous discussion we had come to the point where you told me that you didn’t think people in fellowship with demons were actually possessed by demons. Yet now you are posting verses that talk specifically about possessed individuals. Have you changed your position about this matter? Do you now believe that the GCI people had all become possessed by demons? Do you believe fellowship with demons is the same as possession? If not, then I don’t see as how the verses you quoted even apply to the GCI situation.Scripture provides information about a man who was naked and wildly out-of-control because he was under strong demonic influence:
Mark 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
Luke 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
God informs us that this man who was for a long time a demoniac was completely naked and wildly out-of-control. After Jesus had exorcised the demons from him, the man was “sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind” (Mark 5:15; cf. Luke 8:35).
This revelation shows us what demons who controlled a human being did in afflicting him. Because of the strong demonic influence on this man, he was naked and wildly out-of-control.
In the GCI, Moses saw that the idolaters who were under strong demonic influence were naked and/or wildly out-of-control (Exod. 32:25). Because these exceedingly sinful people were in that humanly irremediable state, God ordered their immediate execution through His faithful leader Moses after he had arrived on the scene (Exod. 32:26-28).
[RajeshG]Thanks for proving my point that being without clothes is “just one possible interpretation.” The KJV is the only version in your list that uses the word “naked.”KJV Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
NAU Exodus 32:25 Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control— for Aaron had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies—
NET Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild, for Aaron had let them get completely out of control, causing derision from their enemies.
NKJ Exodus 32:25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies),
CSB Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them get out of control, resulting in weakness before their enemies.
ESV Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies),
NIV Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
NLT Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that Aaron had let the people get completely out of control, much to the amusement of their enemies.
[RajeshG]Thanks for these lexicon entries, especially the one that says “There does not seem to be enough evidence to justify the KJV’s translation ‘naked.’ ” I was going to post a web page that listed some of the other verses in which this concept is used. I’ve already mentioned 2 Chronicles 28:19 in which the KJV translates it as “for he made Judah naked,” but the NIV translates it as “for he had promoted wickedness in Judah.”Holladay, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HOL)
Hol6962
פָּרַע: qal: pf. פּ׳, פְּרָעֹה; impf. יִפְרָֽע, אֶפְרַע, תִּפְרְעוּ, תִּפְרָֽעוּ; impv. פְּרָעֵהוּ; inf. פְּרוֹעַ; pt. פּוֹרֵעַ, pass. פָּרֻעַ: — 1. let s.one )hang( loose Jb 3324 (if mss. correct); oft. w. rœ°š let the hair of the head hang loose Lv 106; untie (or unbraid) the hair Nu 518; cogn. acc. Ju 52; — 2. w. acc. let s.one go out of control, run wild Ex 3225; — 3. w. acc. ignore, neglect Pr 125.From the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis:
“The basic sense of the word (to loose) may be seen in a variety of related nuances. Sometimes the word suggests the lifting of prior social restraint from people, as when Aaron allowed the Israelites to run wild in the absence of Moses” (Vol. 3, 690).
From the NET Bible:
54 tn The word is difficult to interpret. There does not seem to be enough evidence to justify the KJV’s translation “naked.” It appears to mean something like “let loose” or “lack restraint” (Pro 29:18). The idea seems to be that the people had broken loose, were undisciplined, and were completely given over to their desires.
Another verse that gives us vital truth in understanding the concept is Proverbs 29:18. “Where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint; but blessed is the one who heeds wisdom’s instruction.” This verse is giving a comparison between those who heed instruction, and thus are obedient to God, and those who have no instruction, and thus act unrestrained by instruction. I believe this second category would include people who have previously received instruction but who willfully choose to ignore it, such as the Israelites did during the GCI. By practicing idolatry, they were willfully casting off the restraint of God’s instructions.The more I study this Hebrew word, the more convinced I am that the problem was NOT some naked, wildly out-of-control dancing. The problem was that their idolatry showed a heart attitude of not wanting to be under God’s control, of being undisciplined, of following their own desires instead of following God’s instructions. God Himself confirmed that their corruption and disobedience was demonstrated by their production and worship of the idol. Exodus 32:7-8 says Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it.
Consider the full picture here. As Moses was coming down from the mountain with the tablets containing God’s instructions, the people were showing just how much they despised God’s instructions. When Moses saw the idolatry, he broke the tablets containing the instructions, which was a vivid picture of how the people were breaking God’s instructions.
[RajeshG]Why would I have to give an explanation for something that I never said happened?What is your explanation for how enough animals were properly sacrificed on one altar to feed one million people in less than even one day?
[RajeshG]That’s because God doesn’t give us an explanation. Do you expect me to make one up when God hasn’t given us one? You may be comfortable with doing that, but I am not. I’m only comfortable with giving my opinion of possibilities. Besides, God also sent a plague upon the people, which killed an unspecified number of them. Moses also made the people drink the water that had the ground up idol sprinkled on it. We aren’t told exactly why Moses did that to the water, but punishment to the people could have been part of the reason.When David sinfully numbered the people, God put to death 70,000 people who had not done anything to contribute to his sin (2 Sam. 24:15), yet you would have us believe that 1,000,000 people themselves actually committed a great sin against God and yet God only had 3000 people executed. You have not provided any viable explanation for why God supposedly did this.
[RajeshG]It seems you are still misreading the verse about Israel’s shame in describing it as the unbelieving enemies being ashamed of the Israelites. Earlier, you posted a list of the different versions of this verse. Some of them say that the Israelites were derided by the enemies. That’s not the same as the enemies being ashamed of their behavior. One of them says that Israel was a laughing stock among the enemies. This doesn’t mean that the enemies were ashamed in some way of the Israelites behavior. One of them says that the Israelites were showing weakness before their enemies. Again, this doesn’t mean that the enemies were ashamed of some wild naked behavior.These people who had been playing in such perverse and shameful ways that even the unbelieving enemies of Israel were ashamed of them were immediately put to death for their bringing such open shame to the name of God.
So could idolatry itself be the reason why shame was being brought to the name of God? Absolutely. By the time we get to Ezekiel 36, the people of Israel had gone through time after time of idolatrous rebellion against God. So much so that God had removed them from the land. In Ezekiel 36, God was making a promise to bring them back. Verses 22-23 say 22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
So what were the people doing to profane God’s name? Were they getting naked and dancing out of control? Not that we read in the passage. Verse 20 gives the reason why God’s name was profaned. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ The reason God’s name was profaned was because the people had practiced wickedness that caused God to judge them and remove them from the land. That wickedness and subsequent judgment was enough in itself to profane God’s name.
So what was the wickedness that caused their removal from the land? Verse 18 tells us the wickedness. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. The people’s rebellious idolatry and refusal to be restrained by God’s instructions is the reason they were removed by God from the land. Blatant idolatrous disobedience is enough to cause Israel to be reviled and to be a laughing stock and to be ashamed among their enemies.
This idolatrous disobedience was happening during the GCI and happened over and over and over again in the history of the Israelite people. Trying to wrestle some message about music from the GCI, when music is barely mentioned in the passage, only serves to downplay the wrath of God against the idolatry itself.
[Kevin Miller]Are you saying then that only some of the people participated in eating the sacrifices and the playing?Why would I have to give an explanation for something that I never said happened?
Discussion