We Must Heed the Vital Message of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
1 Corinthians 10:18-20 provides vital instruction that every believer must heed:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
To eat in a worship context of what has been sacrificed on an altar to an idol is to be a partaker of the altar. To do so is also to have fellowship with demons!
Such fellowship with demons is not contingent upon a person’s having to offer the sacrifices himself. Anyone who eats of such sacrifices comes into fellowship with demons.
The passage also does not provide any basis to say or to hold that this only happens sometimes—in a worship context, anyone who eats what has been sacrificed to an idol has fellowship with demons. God does not want any humans to have fellowship with demons!
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Scripture presents key passages warning us about eating things sacrificed to idols from nearly its beginning to its ending:
Exodus 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. 7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Applying what 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 reveals to us to these passages illumines them and underscores God’s emphatic and pervasive instruction throughout Scripture so that people will not have fellowship with demons through eating in a worship context what has been sacrificed to an idol.
Comparing 1 Cor. 10:18-20 with Ephesians 5:11 in the original shows that the passages are closely related:
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1 Corinthians 10:18 βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα· οὐχὶ οἱ ἐσθίοντες τὰς θυσίας κοινωνοὶ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου εἰσί; 19 τί οὖν φημι; ὅτι εἴδωλόν τί ἐστιν; ἢ ὅτι εἰδωλόθυτόν τί ἐστιν; 20 ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι ἃ θύει τὰ ἔθνη, δαιμονίοις θύει, καὶ οὐ Θεῷ· οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς κοινωνοὺς τῶν δαιμονίων γίνεσθαι.
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Ephesians 5:11 καὶ μὴ συγκοινωνεῖτε τοῖς ἔργοις τοῖς ἀκάρποις τοῦ σκότους, μᾶλλον δὲ καὶ ἐλέγχετε·
The imperative in Ephesians 5:11 (συγκοινωνεῖτε) is a compound verb that is related to the noun κοινωνος in 1 Cor. 10:18 (κοινωνοὶ) and 10:20 (κοινωνοὺς). Moreover, both passages concern divine instruction not to have fellowship with things/anything connected to supernatural evil spirits.
From how Ephesians 5:11 illumines 1 Corinthians 10:18-20, we know that these passages together authoritatively direct us as NT believers that we must reject categorically all the unfruitful works of darkness, especially anything closely connected to the consumption of things sacrificed to idols in a worship context.
The Spirit revealed 1 Cor. 10:18-20 to profit us concerning the demonic fellowship that humans come into whenever in a worship context they eat what has been sacrificed to idols. To understand further how God wants us to profit from this revelation and heed its vital message, we must examine carefully the Spirit’s perfect wisdom in how He has crafted the surrounding context of this passage.
Although there are many biblical accounts of humans eating what has been sacrificed to idols, the Spirit chose to direct our attention to one specific account earlier in this passage and use that passage to issue a categorical demand for us not to engage in idolatry:
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
We can be certain, therefore, that He wants us to use 1 Cor. 10:18-20 to understand properly the significance of the event that 10:7 directs our attention to. In 10:7, Paul quotes from Exodus 32:6, which is part of the inspired record of the Golden Calf Incident (GCI).
Applying 1 Cor. 10:18-20 to 10:7 reveals to us therefore that the people who ate and drank what was sacrificed to the idol in the GCI were all people who came into fellowship with demons by their doing so!
Furthermore, we must not fail to pay attention to the fact that the Spirit does not just direct our attention to their eating and drinking what was sacrificed to the idol—He also directs our attention to their idolatrous playing! Because their idolatrous playing only took place after they had consumed what was offered to the idol, we know for certain that their playing was the playing of humans who were in fellowship with demons and influenced by them.
Because the Spirit chose in 1 Corinthians 10 to quote directly from Exodus 32, we know for certain that the GCI is a passage of premier importance for us to know more about the unfruitful works of darkness with which we are commanded not to have any fellowship. Therefore, for us to profit fully from 1 Cor. 10:18-20 we must use what it reveals to illumine what God has revealed to us about what took place in the GCI after the people had eaten and drunk what had been offered to the idol.
I appreciate this thread. The anti-idol-meat position gets little attention, so it’s a good thing.
Not much to add, except that the word “play” seems to mean something close our “party.”
[Dan Miller]Thanks for the encouraging feedback. There is much more to bring out about the importance of how 1 Cor. 10 illumines the GCI.I appreciate this thread. The anti-idol-meat position gets little attention, so it’s a good thing.
Not much to add, except that the word “play” seems to mean something close our “party.”
Based on how 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 illumines 1 Cor. 10:7 and Exodus 32, we must consider thoroughly what Exodus 32 reveals about the activities of the people who came into fellowship with demons through their eating and drinking in a worship context what was sacrificed to an idol.
Exodus 32:6 (part of which is quoted in 1 Cor. 10:7) records that the people rose up to play after they had sat down to eat and drink what had been offered to the idol.
Everything that Exodus 32 records that these people did after they had partaken of those sacrifices is a record of the actions of people who came into fellowship with demons and thereby were influenced by them.
After Exodus 32:6, the next information in Exodus 32 about the activities of these demonically influenced people is recorded in what transpired between Moses and Joshua as they were coming down to the camp:
Exodus 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. 18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
From this passage, we know that these people shouted (32:17) in producing a very loud sound that Moses discerned to be the noise of their singing (32:18). We know, therefore, that these demonically influenced people were producing music.
Exodus 32:17-18 is an inspired record of demonically influenced music! God wants us to know that there is such a thing as demonically influenced music produced by human beings.
Following the revelation about the people’s producing music under demonic influence (Exod. 32:17-18), we read that they were also engaging in another activity under demonic influence:
Exodus 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
Moses, the God-appointed leader of the Israelites at this time, exploded with anger on seeing the idol and their demonically influenced dancing. Moses was not angry with them simply because they had made an idol—their dancing was of such a perverse nature that it also served to elicit his fiery response.
Later, we are given further information about their demonically influenced activities on this occasion that confirms the perverse character of those activities:
Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:
NET Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild, for Aaron had let them get completely out of control, causing derision from their enemies.
NKJ Exodus 32:25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies),
CSB Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them get out of control, resulting in weakness before their enemies.
ESV Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies),
NIV Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
NLT Exodus 32:25 Moses saw that Aaron had let the people get completely out of control, much to the amusement of their enemies.
This statement informs us that these demonically influenced people who were producing music and were dancing were doing so in such a wild, totally-out-of-control manner as to bring them into open shame with their enemies.
The passage therefore explicitly relates that their demonically influenced activities on this occasion were of such a perverse nature that both the godly leader of the people and the ungodly enemies of the people judged what they were doing to be completely unfitting for those who were supposed to be the people of the one true God.
This passage thus provides an inspired record of unbelievers who validly criticized the ungodly worship activities of those who professed to be among the people of God.
By applying 1 Cor. 10:18-20 to 1 Cor. 10:7 and Exodus 32:6, we understand that those in the GCI who had consumed what had been sacrificed to the idol came into fellowship with demons and were under their influence. From Exod. 32:17-25, we learn that these demonically influenced people were producing music and dancing in a perverse, shameful, wildly out-of-control manner.
All the actions that they were doing after they had consumed what had been sacrificed to the idol were perverse actions of demonically influenced people who engaged in false worship. Every aspect of their activities was demonically defiled.
By applying Ephesians 5:11 to Exodus 32:17-25, we understand that God forbids his people from having any fellowship with any such unfruitful works of darkness. It was not just that their hearts were wrong and that their context was sinful; everything they did and how they did it was demonically defiled.
Whatever instruments they were playing (at least timbrels) were being played in a demonically influenced ungodly manner. Whatever they were singing was demonically influenced content and how they were singing it was in a demonically influenced ungodly manner. Their dancing was perverse and ungodly dancing of those who were under demonic influence.
Any attempt to say that both what they were singing and the object of their singing were ungodly but how they were singing was fine is false. Any attempt to say that what they were playing on the instruments and how they were playing it were fine and only the object of their playing was wrong is false.
Because all of their works were demonically influenced, we do not have any biblical basis for holding that any aspect of it was acceptable to God. The GCI therefore is an inspired record that attests to the existence of one or more ungodly styles of playing musical instruments, singing, and dancing.
Their music, singing, and dancing style(s) were not and are not an exception to Ephesians 5:11. God’s people are commanded not to have any fellowship with any such styles!
Anyone claiming that the style(s) used by the people in the GCI in playing that music, in singing what they sang, and in dancing as they did were acceptable to God and would be fit for us to use in worshiping God has the burden of proving his view specifically from the Bible itself.
[RajeshG]As I think I’ve mentioned in the past, we don’t really have a record of a specific “style” from the GCI passage. You described the production and dancing as being done in a “perverse, shameful, wildly out of control manner,” but is that really a style of music? I admit that if people are up in front of the church auditorium dancing naked, that would be shameful, but I truly doubt any churches do that. If people are in front of the church auditorium worshipping an idol and eating food offered to that idol while they are dancing in an out of control manner, that would be shameful, but I truly doubt any churches do that. You may be right in proclaiming the existence of “one ot more ungodly styles,” but unless we have a recording of the style played at the GCI, we can’t say whether those styles even exist today.Because all of their works were demonically influenced, we do not have any biblical basis for holding that any aspect of it was acceptable to God. The GCI therefore is an inspired record that attests to the existence of one or more ungodly styles of playing musical instruments, singing, and dancing.
Their music, singing, and dancing style(s) were not and are not an exception to Ephesians 5:11. God’s people are commanded not to have any fellowship with any such styles!
Is it just a matter of the music being “out of control”? In the other thread, you wrote:, “Psalm 150:5 commands the use of cymbals. First Corinthians 13:1 also speaks of the use of a cymbal, but because loveless speech is likened to that use of the cymbal, we understand that the sounds spoken of in this verse that the tinkling cymbal (or the sounding brass) makes are not aesthetically beautiful sounds and would not be musical sounds that manifest the love that is the fruit of the Spirit.
We can conclude that producing such sounds with the cymbals would not be the divinely acceptable sounds of the uses of the cymbals that are commanded in Psalm 150:5 to use to praise God.”
Here we have a statement from you that certain cymbal sounds are not beautiful and are not acceptable to God. What exactly is it about those sounds that are not acceptable. How can I keep from making those sounds if the verse doesn’t give me specifics? The first thing I think of when I read about the sound of tinkling cymbals is wind chimes. I deliver mail, and some houses have wind chimes on their porch. They can get pretty wild and out of control. Does the wildness make their sound unacceptable to God?
[Kevin Miller]Any time a person plays a musical instrument to produce actual music (and not just single tones), they play it in some style. We do not have to know any of the specifics of the style(s) of music that they used in the GCI.As I think I’ve mentioned in the past, we don’t really have a record of a specific “style” from the GCI passage. You described the production and dancing as being done in a “perverse, shameful, wildly out of control manner,” but is that really a style of music? I admit that if people are up in front of the church auditorium dancing naked, that would be shameful, but I truly doubt any churches do that. If people are in front of the church auditorium worshipping an idol and eating food offered to that idol while they are dancing in an out of control manner, that would be shameful, but I truly doubt any churches do that. You may be right in proclaiming the existence of “one ot more ungodly styles,” but unless we have a recording of the style played at the GCI, we can’t say whether those styles even exist today.
Is it just a matter of the music being “out of control”? In the other thread, you wrote:, “Psalm 150:5 commands the use of cymbals. First Corinthians 13:1 also speaks of the use of a cymbal, but because loveless speech is likened to that use of the cymbal, we understand that the sounds spoken of in this verse that the tinkling cymbal (or the sounding brass) makes are not aesthetically beautiful sounds and would not be musical sounds that manifest the love that is the fruit of the Spirit.
We can conclude that producing such sounds with the cymbals would not be the divinely acceptable sounds of the uses of the cymbals that are commanded in Psalm 150:5 to use to praise God.”
Here we have a statement from you that certain cymbal sounds are not beautiful and are not acceptable to God. What exactly is it about those sounds that are not acceptable. How can I keep from making those sounds if the verse doesn’t give me specifics? The first thing I think of when I read about the sound of tinkling cymbals is wind chimes. I deliver mail, and some houses have wind chimes on their porch. They can get pretty wild and out of control. Does the wildness make their sound unacceptable to God?
Furthermore, it is irrelevant whether the specific style(s) used in the GCI exist today. The bigger point is that the false presupposition that all instrumental music is inherently either neutral, amoral, or good is refuted by what the Scripture reveals through 1 Cor. 10 and Exod. 32 as well as elsewhere.
The Bible does not in any way support the notion that all instrumental musical styles are inherently acceptable to God. Anyone who asserts that the instrumental music that they were playing was amoral, neutral, or good in spite of their being influenced by demons must prove from the Bible alone why that was still the case.
The Bible reveals that demons influenced these false worshipers to produce ungodly music back then, and we do not have any biblical basis to hold that demons do not any longer influence humans to produce ungodly worship music in our day. Any music style(s)/genre(s) sourced in evil supernatural influence on humans is music that must be rejected (Eph. 5:11).
We do not have any way to understand in detail and with certainty what musicological aspects of such music sourced in supernatural evil influence makes it evil. More importantly, God has not authorized us to do such analysis. He demands that we do not have anything to do with it.
[RajeshG]The way I see it, your post is a lot of bluster without much substance. You are saying that “Any music style(s)/genre(s) sourced in evil supernatural influence on humans is music that must be rejected (Eph. 5:11).” Fine, I WANT to reject those styles. How do I do that? Seriously. How? Does the ‘How?” really not matter?The Bible reveals that demons influenced these false worshipers to produce ungodly music back then, and we do not have any biblical basis to hold that demons do not any longer influence humans to produce ungodly worship music in our day. Any music style(s)/genre(s) sourced in evil supernatural influence on humans is music that must be rejected (Eph. 5:11).
We do not have any way to understand in detail and with certainty what musicological aspects of such music sourced in supernatural evil influence makes it evil. More importantly, God has not authorized us to do such analysis. He demands that we do not have anything to do with it.
Don’t I need to have some insight in the “evil spiritual influence” of today’s demons to know what “music style(s)/genre(s)” of today are actually sourced in “evil supernatural influence”? If I don’t know that, how can I reject such music?
I appreciate what you said in the other thread about the “continuum of demonic influence.” You said “At one end would be Jesus in whom the devil had nothing (John 14:30), but the devil still was able to tempt Him. At the other end would be those who were/are demon-possessed. All other people will fall somewhere in between the two ends.” If all people feel between those ends, then wouldn’t all music produced by people also fall between those ends? I know you don’t think we should reject all music, so where is the line on the continuum that makes us have to start rejecting some?
In my mind, rejecting some, but not all, music would take some analysis, yet you claim that “God has not authorized us to do such analysis.” Huh? How does that work then? I can’t get past the illogic of what you are saying. Imagine the conversation if we used the word “sin” rather than “demonically influenced music.”
You: God wants you to reject sin. Me:What is sin? You: Sin is something God is displeased with. Me: But how do I determine what displeases God? You: God doesn’t require you to analyze. He just wants you to reject it.
Do you see how confusing that gets without specifics? Especially since with music, it would be some point along a continuum at which music would be rejected. No one has tried, in this thread or the Gen 4:21 thread, to say that music is all good or even amoral. We’ve been discussing what you claim to be “demonically influenced music.” I can get a handle on, to a certain degree, what it means for demons to influence humans. What I am trying to figure out is how such influence on humans can get transferred to something humans produce. You’re the one claiming the influence gets transferred, so shouldn’t you be the one who proves from Scripture that it does? How can I tell if the influence has been transferred? Don’t I need to be able to tell if it has in order to know what to reject?
[Kevin Miller]I have never said that the “how” does not matter.You are saying that “Any music style(s)/genre(s) sourced in evil supernatural influence on humans is music that must be rejected (Eph. 5:11).” Fine, I WANT to reject those styles. How do I do that? Seriously. How? Does the ‘How?” really not matter?
Don’t I need to have some insight in the “evil spiritual influence” of today’s demons to know what “music style(s)/genre(s)” of today are actually sourced in “evil supernatural influence”? If I don’t know that, how can I reject such music?
Just as it took vital illumination from 1 Cor. 10:18-20 to unlock the real nature of what took place in the GCI, so answering the “how” in our day must also come from letting the Bible interpret itself through all relevant passages.
The passages that have been treated in this thread have already provided you with a central aspect of the “how”—studying the Bible thoroughly to learn what it reveals about people who have contact with supernatural evil spirits and how they have such contact. First Corinthians 10:18-20 informs us that anyone who in a worship context eats what has been sacrificed to an idol comes into fellowship with demons. We, therefore, must reject any music sourced in such idolatrous practices.
Furthermore, from learning that both Testaments categorically forbid God’s people from having any contact with the occult and its practitioners, you then must determine in your life to reject categorically any music sourced in any occult practices.
For example, from a biblical standpoint, voodoo is an evil occult practice. Believers therefore have zero justification for any use of voodoo music in their lives in any form. Such music is to be rejected categorically—we are not to study it from a musicological standpoint nor are we ever to bring it into the church in any form.
[RajeshG]How are we supposed to know if a particular song we are listening to has been used in a voodoo ceremony?For example, from a biblical standpoint, voodoo is an evil occult practice. Believers therefore have zero justification for any use of voodoo music in their lives in any form. Such music is to be rejected categorically—we are not to study it from a musicological standpoint nor are we ever to bring it into the church in any form.
[Kevin Miller]In such matters, the consecrated believer rejects anything that there is any question about. In the Internet age, there is plenty of information available online …How are we supposed to know if a particular song we are listening to has been used in a voodoo ceremony?
The Bible does not speak specifically on the matter of voodoo so I do not have anything specific about it to add in this respect. Obviously, if someone says that their music is voodoo music or is sourced in, related to, derived from, etc. it, that music must be rejected.
Believers have more than enough music to use in their worshiping God about which there are no questions so that there is no need to have anything to do with music about which there are any questions.
The Bible makes clear that believers are not to have anything to do with anything connected to idolatry or the occult. Any music about which various musicians have themselves repeatedly testified that their music is demonic, sourced in demonic influence upon them, etc is music that must be rejected.
Furthermore, Exodus 32:25 teaches us that unbelieving enemies of God’s people validly judged what took place in the GCI as shameful conduct. This key text (and other passages) teaches us that categorically rejecting secular/unbelieving assessments of musical styles/genres simply because the ones doing the assessing are unbelievers is an unbiblical and faulty position.
When secular musicologists and other people who are knowledgeable in their fields have decried certain styles/genres as being music that is detrimental to humanity, believers are not justified in rejecting such assessments on the grounds that the people who have made those assessments may not have been or are not believers. When these critics have spoken out against Christian use of such styles/genres, believers should heed their valid criticisms.
[RajeshG]The Bible makes clear that believers are not to have anything to do with anything connected to idolatry or the occult. Any music about which various musicians have themselves repeatedly testified that their music is demonic, sourced in demonic influence upon them, etc is music that must be rejected.
This seems like a tall order. Are we supposed to examine the statements of every composer to see if they claim their music is sourced in demonic influence upon them? I highly doubt any Christian composers would claim demonic influence, so you must be referring to secular songs by secular artists. If a composer is not possessed and has not written his works for idolatrous or occult ceremonies and has not self-identified as being sourced in demon influence, then I don’t see how his music would have a demonic stain upon it.
When we talk about “voodoo music”, we’re referring to musical styles originating in the regions of West Africa from whence African-Americans originally came to become slaves. Don’t think for a minute that African-Americans won’t clue in to what is being said there. You might as well talk about the “Jungle Beat”.
Reality is that, apart from guilt by association fallacies, Scripture really doesn’t tell us what musical instruments, techniques, rhythms, and the like are, and are not, appropriate, except to command the use of stringed, wind, and percussive instruments in places like the last two Psalms. Those who would condemn the use of drums and music with a good beat need to remember that God told Israel to praise Him with cymbals and dancing.
Regarding African-American music in particular, derived in great part from the patterns of Africa, let’s also not forget that this music helped our brothers and sisters in that community survive the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow, and even today makes churches in that community vibrant. To reject it because some similar patterns may have been used for voodoo makes about as much sense as rejecting European music forms because of their connections with paganism, Talmudic Judiasm, and idolatrous state churches.
To wit; look up the source material for Be Still My Soul or Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee, or for that matter Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. The first is from pre-Christian Finnish mythology, the second is invoked in Beethoven’s 9th Symphony ode to Schiller’s pantheism, and the third is the tune for Deutschland Ueber Alles. Certainly a connection with the Holocaust ought to temper our enthusiasm for that last song, no?
I also would suggest that music from the Southern church’s eras of supporting slavery and Jim Crow—really everything from about 1830 through 1970 south of the Mason-Dixon, and for that matter quite a bit of the music from north of that line as well—ought to be excluded on the grounds of association with systemic racism. Notice here that the associations I’ve mentioned here are far more recent than the connection of African-American musical styles with voodoo. We should take them, therefore, far more seriously, no?
You want guilt by association? Game on, but suffice it to say that the music pastor is going to have some serious time for twiddling his thumbs after we remove everything with a possibly objectionable connection.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
LOL Yes of course, what Rajesh is trying to set up is the idea that jazz comes from voodoo and rock extended from jazz so both are out of bounds in church. He is patient about getting there or perhaps is scared to actually state that conclusion but that is where he is going.
His theory is hardly unique; you can find the same teaching back in books written by church musicologists of the mid-20th century who were concerned about jazz, the new music of that day. Their logic was non-existent and their racism was quite obvious of course. I am not suggesting Rajesh is a racist but this teaching originally had very racial overtones.
[Kevin Miller]A Christian musician who either patterns his music after the music of evil people who engage in occult practices, idolatry, etc or borrows their music to “Christianize” it violates the divine prohibition not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).This seems like a tall order. Are we supposed to examine the statements of every composer to see if they claim their music is sourced in demonic influence upon them? I highly doubt any Christian composers would claim demonic influence, so you must be referring to secular songs by secular artists. If a composer is not possessed and has not written his works for idolatrous or occult ceremonies and has not self-identified as being sourced in demon influence, then I don’t see how his music would have a demonic stain upon it.
Consider as a parallel what Achan did. God ordered the Israelites to eradicate certain wicked peoples because of their immense wickedness, including their engaging in many occult practices and in idolatry. When faced with a divine demand not to have anything to do with any of their things, Achan instead took an article of clothing that appealed to him aesthetically:
Joshua 7:21 When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.
Achan was judged fiercely for his violating the divine prohibition to not have anything to do with the things of those wicked people. If he thought that what God demanded of them seemed “like a tall order,” he paid a horrific price for thinking in that manner.
God demands that we not have anything to do with the things of evil people who engage in occult practices. The NT similarly reveals the divine mindset when newly converted believers immediately rid their lives of very costly possessions that they had that they previously used to engage in occult practices:
Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
These books were extremely valuable and could have been sold for a lot of money. These new believers, however, instinctively knew that they had to destroy them and did so.
Similarly, God demands that His people have nothing to do with anything connected to the occult, including the music of its practitioners.
[RajeshG]Okay, but what I wonder about is the logic of using this principle primarily about genres and styles rather than using about the musical instruments themselves. After all, it is the combination of certain instruments that usually produces the distinctive sounds that get separated into genres and styles. If occult music uses strings and woodwinds and percussion, then shouldn’t strings and woodwinds and percussion be off limits for the believer?A Christian musician who either patterns his music after the music of evil people who engage in occult practices, idolatry, etc or borrows their music to “Christianize” it violates the divine prohibition not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).
I’m sure you might say, “Well, the Bible commands the use of musical instruments.” Fair enough. That’s true. Even though those same instruments are used in occult worship. God is still fine with them being used in righteous worship. This is because the SIN is in the false worship, not in the use of a musical instrument. The false worship does not taint in some way the instruments used.
So if the instruments themselves do not become tainted by their use in false worship, why do you think a style or genre becomes tainted? That’s the logic I question. False worship can be done in many different styles and genres, just as false worship uses many different instruments. False worship is wrong and I should have no part in it. The only worship i should engage in is worship of the true God. You use “Christianize” as if using things in worship to the true God is a bad thing. If God is fine with musical instruments being “Christinaized,” then why would God have a problem with genres if they are used in worship of Him?
[Kevin Miller]Strictly speaking, the Bible does not provide any revelation about any musical instrument, style, genre, etc. that was created by wicked people for wicked purposes and then “Christianized,” much less something sourced in demonic influence on the wicked people and then used by God’s people.So if the instruments themselves do not become tainted by their use in false worship, why do you think a style or genre becomes tainted? That’s the logic I question. False worship can be done in many different styles and genres, just as false worship uses many different instruments. False worship is wrong and I should have no part in it. The only worship i should engage in is worship of the true God. You use “Christianize” as if using things in worship to the true God is a bad thing. If God is fine with musical instruments being “Christinaized,” then why would God have a problem with genres if they are used in worship of Him?
To speak of a style or genre as becoming tainted through its use in false worship is to presume that all styles or genres start out as inherently untainted. That presumption simply does not have any Bible to support it.
We need to keep going back to the Bible to formulate all of our perspectives on these points.
[RajeshG]The presupposition that a musical instrument would start out tainted if created by a wicked person is also unfounded, since we don’t have any verses to support it.Strictly speaking, the Bible does not provide any revelation about any musical instrument, style, genre, etc. that was created by wicked people for wicked purposes and then “Christianized,” much less something sourced in demonic influence on the wicked people and then used by God’s people.
To speak of a style or genre as becoming tainted through its use in false worship is to presume that all styles or genres start out as inherently untainted. That presumption simply does not have any Bible to support it.
We need to keep going back to the Bible to formulate all of our perspectives on these points.
[Kevin Miller]I do not remember ever saying anything to the effect that a musical instrument would start out tainted if it were created by a wicked person. I do not believe that and have argued against such a notion elsewhere along this line: So long as an instrument is able to produce only single tones, it is impossible for it to be inherently evil.The presupposition that a musical instrument would start out tainted if created by a wicked person is also unfounded, since we don’t have any verses to support it.
In any case, continuing to dig in the Bible is the only way for us to get greater understanding and illumination about these matters.
Two other passages in the Pentateuch explicitly speak of offering sacrifices to demons:
Leviticus 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
The latter one is especially noteworthy for various reasons that I hope to bring out later.
[RajeshG]Then please re-explain this sentence which you wrote about “any musical instrument, style, genre, etc” which is created by wicked people.I do not remember ever saying anything to the effect that a musical instrument would start out tainted if it were created by a wicked person. I do not believe that and have argued against such a notion elsewhere along this line: So long as an instrument is able to produce only single tones, it is impossible for it to be inherently evil.
In any case, continuing to dig in the Bible is the only way for us to get greater understanding and illumination about these matters.
“Strictly speaking, the Bible does not provide any revelation about any musical instrument, style, genre, etc. that was created by wicked people for wicked purposes and then “Christianized,” much less something sourced in demonic influence on the wicked people and then used by God’s people.”
I took it mean that any such thing (instruments included) that is “created by wicked people” cannot be used by God’s people since we have no revelation to say that it can. Are you saying that instruments created by wicked people and sourced in their occult evil actually start out good?
[RajeshG]So long as an instrument is able to produce only single tones, it is impossible for it to be inherently evil.
In any case, continuing to dig in the Bible is the only way for us to get greater understanding and illumination about these matters.
Like these discussions always go, the more specific one of these music conservatives gets, the more absurd they sound. This statement from him is interesting for sure. An instrument that produces multiple tones (presumably at the same time) presumably can be inherently evil according to him. Who knew?
There are not many instruments really designed to play multiple tones at the same time. Piano, organ, and guitar are the main ones that people may be familiar with. Rajesh apparently thinks that these 3 instruments may have a moral component before anyone actually plays them. I have been around this kind of thinking all my life but this is a first for sure.
What is he is getting at is that some harmony is immoral. That is a tall order to prove in any manner but trying to do so from the Bible will be difficult: harmony did not even exist in human music then. In fact, it has only existed a few centuries.
The argumentation used in all his threads is interesting too. Basically, here is his strategy:
1) Make a statement and try to prove it with woefully insufficient Biblical support. (His discussions of Jubal was a classic example.)
2) Ignore those that tell him his Biblical support is insufficient and assume that he has proved his point.
3) Insist that the onus is now on others to prove him wrong using Biblical evidence. (In general of course, this is not possible because the Bible is simply silent on his assertions.)
I made this challenge a few months ago for another SI member, and I’ll renew it on this thread for Rajesh.
Rajesh, can you please analyze this song and tell me how / if it displeases God? Lyrics are here; instrumental version of the music is here. I’ll not ask you to listen to the entirety of the song, although you’re certainly free to do so if you wish. The full song is available here, via YouTube.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]No, I have no interest in doing this.I made this challenge a few months ago for another SI member, and I’ll renew it on this thread for Rajesh.
Rajesh, can you please analyze this song and tell me how / if it displeases God? Lyrics are here; instrumental version of the music is here. I’ll not ask you to listen to the entirety of the song, although you’re certainly free to do so if you wish. The full song is available here, via YouTube.
[GregH]I do not have anything to prove. Musical non-conservatives such as you have to prove your implied assertion that all harmonies are moral. You do not just get to beg the question—prove it from the Bible itself.What is he is getting at is that some harmony is immoral. That is a tall order to prove in any manner but trying to do so from the Bible will be difficult: harmony did not even exist in human music then. In fact, it has only existed a few centuries.
[Kevin Miller]I only made that statement in response to your previous comment: “The presupposition that a musical instrument would start out tainted if created by a wicked person is also unfounded, since we don’t have any verses to support it.” That is not a presupposition that I hold, and I have never argued in that respect.Then please re-explain this sentence which you wrote about “any musical instrument, style, genre, etc” which is created by wicked people.
“Strictly speaking, the Bible does not provide any revelation about any musical instrument, style, genre, etc. that was created by wicked people for wicked purposes and then “Christianized,” much less something sourced in demonic influence on the wicked people and then used by God’s people.”
I took it mean that any such thing (instruments included) that is “created by wicked people” cannot be used by God’s people since we have no revelation to say that it can. Are you saying that instruments created by wicked people and sourced in their occult evil actually start out good?
There is no biblical data that shows that any musical instruments were created by wicked people and sourced in their occult evil. In any case, as I have argued elsewhere, any instrument that is capable of playing single musical tones (regardless of whether it can also play multiple tones at the same time) cannot be inherently evil because single musical tones cannot be inherently evil.
[RajeshG]I do not have anything to prove. Musical non-conservatives such as you have to prove your implied assertion that all harmonies are moral. You do not just get to beg the question—prove it from the Bible itself.
Rajesh, the Bible does not talk about harmony. The people that wrote the Bible did not know that harmony even existed. That came along a few thousand years later.
In the late middle ages, the Catholic church actually did believe that some harmony was immoral. The most famous example was the use of an augmented fourth interval. Thankfully, they eventually figured out that they did not know what they were talking about.
It is funny that you think I have to prove anything. I am not the one making half-baked assertions, using the Bible in a cavalier manner as a prop for my personal presuppositions and biases. As I said, you provide your theories without absolutely no Biblical backing or otherwise and then have the audacity to say that the other side is somehow obligated to prove you wrong. Nope, the responsibility for proof is on you my friend.
So what if the Bible does not talk about harmony? So what if the people that wrote the Bible did not know that harmony even existed?
I have proven that the people in the GCI were under demonic influence when they were producing music. You do not have any basis to claim anything about the limits of that demonically influenced music simply because ordinary humans at that time may not have known certain things about music back then.
If, by chance, you think that demons only learned about harmonies after humans discovered them, the burden of proof is on you to show why that is true. In any case, prove from the Bible why we must hold that instrumental music produced by demonically influenced people nonetheless is always still only moral.
[RajeshG]So what if the Bible does not talk about harmony? So what if the people that wrote the Bible did not know that harmony even existed?
I have proven that the people in the GCI were under demonic influence when they were producing music. You do not have any basis to claim anything about the limits of that demonically influenced music simply because ordinary humans at that time may not have known certain things about music back then.
If, by chance, you think that demons only learned about harmonies after humans discovered them, the burden of proof is on you to show why that is true. In any case, prove from the Bible why we must hold that instrumental music produced by demonically influenced people nonetheless is always still only moral.
First, I think you are overstating it greatly when you claim you have proved anything.
Second, what you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote about your assertion that instruments that can play multiple notes at the same time can be inherently evil and the underlying idea that some harmony is inherently evil.
The Bible does not discuss harmony and thus there is not even a hint of the idea that Christians should assign morality to harmony. You are adding to the Bible. Go ahead and do that, but don’t be surprised when no one here accepts your arguments.
I already know that you will not do this but if you are so sure that there is immoral harmony, I challenge you to name one immoral chord. In fact, I will donate $50 to your church if you will name an immoral chord. You don’t even have to defend it; just name one specific chord that is immoral.
[GregH]Explicit NT statements in 1 Cor. 10:18-20 declare that people who in a worship context consume what has been sacrificed to an idol come into fellowship with demons. You do not get to deny direct statements from God.First, I think you are overstating it greatly when you claim you have proved anything.
Furthermore, 1 Cor. 10:7 explicitly speaks of the idolatry of the people in the GCI as including their consuming what was sacrificed to the idol and their playing. You do not get to deny what the Bible says explicitly.
Based on what both 1 Cor. 10:18-20 and 10:7 reveal, we can know with utter certainty that the people in the GCI were demonically influenced after they consumed what was offered to the idol. All their activities after that point were the activities of people who were under the influence of demons.
[GregH]I made no such claim. Although my statement could have been expressed more clearly, you are running with a faulty inference that you have drawn from my statement. I did not say anything about instruments that can play more than one note at a time—you drew that faulty inference from what I said.
Second, what you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote about your assertion that instruments that can play multiple notes at the same time can be inherently evil and the underlying idea that some harmony is inherently evil.
In fact, I did not even say anything about harmonies in my original comment!
[GregH]Exodus 32 illumined by 1 Cor. 10:7 and 10:18-20 absolutely shows that Christians must assign morality to music produced by demonically influenced humans. If you want to claim that there were no harmonies involved in that music, that is just a mere assertion. Even if your assertion were true, it still would not take away at all from the fact that instrumental music in the GCI was produced by the demonically influenced people. The burden of proof is on you if you claim that their instrumental music (as well as their singing and their dancing) was still moral even though they were influenced by demons.
The Bible does not discuss harmony and thus there is not even a hint of the idea that Christians should assign morality to harmony. If you do that, you are adding to the Bible. Go ahead and do that, but don’t be surprised when no one here accepts your arguments.I already know that you will not do this but if you are so sure that there is immoral harmony, I challenge you to name one immoral chord. In fact, I will donate $50 to your church if you will name an immoral chord. You don’t even have to defend it; just name one specific chord that is immoral.
1) Again, I am not discussing (nor interested in) your theories about demon-influenced music.
2) Again, there is no burden of proof on me. I am not the one making half-baked assertions.
3) I am not going to play word games with you regarding what you said about instruments that play single notes vs multiple notes. What you said was clear and the implications obvious to anyone that knows music and the definition of harmony.
4) Do you not want your church to get the $50? Please name an immoral chord for us.
[GregH]Since you have by your own direct statements declared that you have no actual interest in discussing what the Bible says about the actual subjects of this thread, I hope that you will have the decency not to comment any more on this thread.1) Again, I am not discussing (nor interested in) your theories about demon-influenced music.
2) Again, there is no burden of proof on me. I am not the one making half-baked assertions.
3) I am not going to play word games with you regarding what you said about instruments that play single notes vs multiple notes. What you said was clear and the implications obvious.
4) Do you not want your church to get the $50? Please name an immoral chord for us.
[RajeshG]Since you have by your own direct statements declared that you have no actual interest in discussing what the Bible says about the actual subjects of this thread, I hope that you will have the decency not to comment any more on this thread.
Respectfully, you are the one who brought up the theory of single note instruments, not me. But I will agree that this is a waste of time. My $50 offer still stands though I know you will continue to duck such questions that would expose you.
[RajeshG]I’ve noticed several times that you have stated “There is no biblical data . . ” and then you have stated a inference that you draw from the lack of data. The extremely wicked man Jubal was the “father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes.” You mentioned previously that this does NOT prove that Jubal invented those instruments. We don’t know who invented them.There is no biblical data that shows that any musical instruments were created by wicked people and sourced in their occult evil. In any case, as I have argued elsewhere, any instrument that is capable of playing single musical tones (regardless of whether it can also play multiple tones at the same time) cannot be inherently evil because single musical tones cannot be inherently evil.
Is there any way to tell if they were invented by the demon influenced people? No.
Is there any way to tell that they WERE NOT invented by the demon influenced people? No.
Could they have been invented by the wicked people? You seem to dismiss this possibility simply because of the lack of Biblical data, but if we don’t have Biblical data either way, how can we dismiss either possibility? For the sake of my own understanding about how demon influence works, I am trying to look at the situation from both possibilities. It seems possible to me that some evil person could have created a musical instrument specifically for his idolatrous worship. That is not outside the realm of possibility, so I’m wondering whether you would or would not consider that instrument to be evil. You said “single musical tones cannot be inherently evil,” but if a wicked person were to create a trumpet-like instrument that blasted out a loud single tone to call people to idolatrous worship, then wouldn’t THAT single tone be evil?
Personally, my goal in this conversation is not to get you to examine specific individual arrangements of music for evil. I’m trying to figure out your perspective of “demon influence” and how it relates to things created by demon influenced people. You used Eph 5:11 previously to talk about “the divine prohibition not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.” You would include music produced by demon influenced people in the “works of darkness” category, but when the music is broken down into it’s parts, you have some parts as being unusable by believers in any form (the style) and some parts being acceptable for believers (the instruments and the individual tones.)
You asked if anyone had Biblical support for saying harmonies are moral. Do you have any Biblical support for saying single musical tones are moral?
Jay wrote: I made this challenge a few months ago for another SI member, and I’ll renew it on this thread for Rajesh.
Rajesh, can you please analyze this song and tell me how / if it displeases God? Lyrics are here; instrumental version of the music is here. I’ll not ask you to listen to the entirety of the song, although you’re certainly free to do so if you wish. The full song is available here, via YouTube.
No, I have no interest in doing this.
You know, it’s really weird how a guy with so much to say about music won’t actually engage with music. But that’s nothing new - every music ‘conservative’ I’ve asked this of has immediately refused. Every. single. one.
If this is such an important topic…why does everyone refuse?
Explicit NT statements in 1 Cor. 10:18-20 declare that people who in a worship context consume what has been sacrificed to an idol come into fellowship with demons. You do not get to deny direct statements from God.
Furthermore, 1 Cor. 10:7 explicitly speaks of the idolatry of the people in the GCI as including their consuming what was sacrificed to the idol and their playing. You do not get to deny what the Bible says explicitly.
Based on what both 1 Cor. 10:18-20 and 10:7 reveal, we can know with utter certainty that the people in the GCI were demonically influenced after they consumed what was offered to the idol. All their activities after that point were the activities of people who were under the influence of demons.
It isn’t “deny[ing] the direct statement of God” to point out that daisy chaining random passages of Scripture because they have the same word in them doesn’t prove any point, regardless of how often you say it. Someone with a Ph.D. in New Testament Interpretation ought to know this.
If either of those instances in Scripture had anything to do with musical practices for today, you might have a point. If there were anyone here eating food offered to idols in the church, there would be precedence. You haven’t “proven” anything, even though more than a few of us said so in that massive waste of a thread on the Golden Calf.
Pulling isolated verses out of passages, loading them up with unproven assertions (or inferences, such as you make about Jubal and again here with the whole “playing [Exodus 32] = demons [I Cor. 10] = music” assertion), and then creating entire theories on music and how it is to be used in worship based on that is not legitimate Biblical application.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]1 Corinthians 10:7 is a direct quote from Ex. 32:6—no daisy chaining at all.It isn’t “deny[ing] the direct statement of God” to point out that daisy chaining random passages of Scripture because they have the same word in them doesn’t prove any point, regardless of how often you say it. Someone with a Ph.D. in New Testament Interpretation ought to know this.
If either of those instances in Scripture had anything to do with musical practices for today, you might have a point. If there were anyone here eating food offered to idols in the church, there would be precedence. You haven’t “proven” anything, even though more than a few of us said so in that massive waste of a thread on the Golden Calf.
Pulling isolated verses out of passages, loading them up with unproven assertions (or inferences, such as you make about Jubal and again here with the whole “playing [Exodus 32] = demons [I Cor. 10] = music” assertion), and then creating entire theories on music and how it is to be used in worship based on that is not legitimate Biblical application.
1 Cor. 10:7 directly states that their eating and drinking was part of their idolatry. No daisy chaining at all.
In the same chapter and same context of warning against idolatry, Paul later explains the grave nature of eating and drinking what is offered to an idol in a idolatrous context by directly stating that people who do so come into fellowship with demons (1 Cor. 10:18-20).
Therefore, you have the burden of proof of showing why when the people in the GCI ate and drank what was offered to the idol they somehow still did not come into fellowship with demons.
If, however, you are not denying that they were in fellowship with demons after consuming what was sacrificed to the idol, what are you denying?
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