Steve Pettit and the Skillman family
I would think that it would be obvious that Don and I are on opposite sides regarding this issue. Yet, ironically, I think that he and I are closer together than some on this thread who listen to the same music as I do.
For those who are interested, H.R. Rookmaaker, a friend and colleague of Schaeffer, wrote a book titled Modern Art and the Death of a Culture. In the book, Dr. Rookmaaker (a jazz expert, by the way) explains how changing worldviews were communicated by the changing art styles post-enlightenment.
I don’t agree with Don’s conclusions, but he does raise some questions and points that should be interacted with and not simply dismissed. Culture shapes us, and many of need to do a better job of being aware of what the artists and taste-makers of our generation are intending.
Ha! There were students (including me) at BJU in 1978-1982 “who view[ed] the school’s music rules as anachronistic” then!
Some on this thread have warned about the bad influences that may come from listening to CCM. Either our contexts are radically different, or I live in a more pagan society than you do. Here is an excerpt from a real conversation I had with an 18 year old at my church this past week:
- Her. “They’re letting us dress up for Halloween at work. What should I be?”
- Me: “You should go for something non-controversial; liker a MAGA hat, an NRA t-shirt and a “blue lives matter” pin …”
- Her: (laughs)
- Me: “Or, you could go as a Christian! There’s nothing more terrifying.”
- Her: “No, that wouldn’t work. I’d be killed. Literally all my co-workers are gay.”
She wouldn’t literally be killed, of course, but you get the point - this is Western Washington. This is the secular, leftist mecca that is the I-5 corridor. This is real life. CCM is the least of my worries.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Tyler’s comments reminded me of the responses I saw over 50 years ago when I tried to explain to my school friends why I couldn’t go see Disney movies, go roller skating, or square dance in PE class. 40 years ago I saw similar responses to prohibitions over blue jeans, facial hair, long side burns, guitars in church, and even IBC Root Beer bottles(appearance of evil you know).
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
I manage an investigations unit for a state agency. In this capacity, I had to assign an investigator to determine whether a major insurer in WA State discriminated against transgender individuals who wanted breast augmentation surgery. That is, biological men who have had surgery, self-identify as women, and now demand the insurer cover the cost of breast construction. Drugs will only grow breasts so large on biological men; hence the demand for a covered surgical option.
The insurer initially refused, stating this procedure was only covered for biological women who have had breast cancer, or some other medical issue that forced them to have a breast removed. The transgender individuals gained the support of a local activist organization, and applied political pressure. The insurer retorted that these transgendered individuals (biological men) should feel happy with the small cup-size the drugs give them, because plenty of biological women deal with the same frustrations. The entire case hinges on what is deemed “medically necessary,” and that hinges on the individual physician who issues a diagnosis, and that hinges on whatever the latest edition of the DSM says, and the DSM says this is a medical issue, not a psychological problem. In case you weren’t aware, the DSM isn’t the best foundation for objective truth!
How on earth am I supposed to supervise and approve an investigation like this, given my worldview? Well, the fact of the matter is that WA law defines that as discrimination, so we substantiated the case and the insurer was fined.
This is the mad, mad world we live in. It’s the world I work in. CCM and its potential for “bad influences” isn’t the most pressing moral issue on my radar!
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I think Brother P played a serviceable mandolin. I like to see him really let loose and get picking.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
As a newcomer to Sharper Iron, I found it illuminating to read carefully through all 6 pages of comments to this article.
Bert wrote:
Given that David wrote a lot of the Psalms despite being neither prophet nor priest, and given that a fair number of Psalms are unattributed, and given that 1 Corinthians 14 notes that early church services had a lot of people bringing their own songs into the congregation, is the Scripture really consistent with the notion of the pastor setting the musical tone for the entire congregation? We might wonder whether music in Bible times was effectively “crowd-sourced.”I can see some basic limits on music-the message ought not be heretical or obscene, preference will be given to lyrics whose poetry effectively uses poetic devices, the tunes used ought to be fitting to the topic and winsome—but perhaps we might find that the degree of control a pastor ought to exert might be far less than is typical in today’s fundamental (and evangelical) churches.
It’s important to note that the Bible explicitly says that David was a prophet:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.
David was a prophet who is the most important musician spoken of in Scripture.
[RajeshG] David was a prophet who is the most important musician spoken of in Scripture.We have David’s lyrics and references to musical instruments, but I wonder what David’s music actually sounded like. I’ll have to ask him to sing something for me when we get to heaven.
Come to think of it, I wonder if we’ll be creating our own music in heaven, or if we’ll just be listening to the angels singing their songs.
[Kevin Miller]Except it doesnt say that angels “sing,” only that they “say.” :)RajeshG wrote:
David was a prophet who is the most important musician spoken of in Scripture.We have David’s lyrics and references to musical instruments, but I wonder what David’s music actually sounded like. I’ll have to ask him to sing something for me when we get to heaven.
Come to think of it, I wonder if we’ll be creating our own music in heaven, or if we’ll just be listening to the angels singing their songs.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
So Lee said this, a couple posts up:
But intent of the producer/artist/performer does matter. It might even be what matters most. I Cor. 6-10 (meat offered to idols) has practically no meaning at all without taking into account the intent of the source (producer if you want to make a parallel) to begin with.
So let’s talk about that. Here’s a song by SI member Shai Linne, as posted on YouTube. The song is titled “The Glory of God (Not To Us)”, and here’s the lyrics from the verses:
[Verse 1]
Let us begin, how should we start?
Brightness shining out of the dark
It shines in our heart, providing a spark
His might incites the light to impart
Takes us back to Genesis 1
Angels clapped and hymns they were sung
Face the facts, he’s second to none
In the beginning positioned the sun
Up in the sky hovering high
The light’s too bright, cover your eyes
Type of sights that none can devise
This righteous Knight is lovely and wise
It’s seen in the stars
Seen in the galaxies, Seen in quasars
Neptune, Uranus, and Pluto and Jupiter
Mercury, Saturn and Venus and Mars
Back to the earth, it shows in the trees
Each of the leaves blows in the breeze
Locusts and bees, oceans and seas
All the result of Jehovah’s decrees
Observe the way his word creates
Preserves and shapes, determines fates
Reverberates at urgent rates
The earth it shakes with fervent quakes
[Pre-Hook]
Imagine it
I can’t explain the half of it
Our brains can’t even fathom it
And language is inadequate
To characterize the Lord on the throne
With spiritual eyes his story is known
From Him & Through Him & To Him is everything
Surely to God be the glory alone
From Him & Through Him & To Him is everything
Surely to God be the glory alone
[Hook]
Not to us, not to us
But to Your name be the glory
Not to us, not to us
But to Your name be the glory
Not to us, not to us
But to Your name be the glory
To Your name be the glory
To Your name be the glory (x4)
[Verse 2]
Let us consider the God who is there
Possessing a glory that’s not to be shared
God vs. Anyone – not even fair
How could you dare to try to compare
The self-existent, self-sufficient
Omnipotent, Beneficent
Faithful God whose word we can trust
Perfectly holy and perfectly just
His beauty, there’s no end to it
Transcendence is infinite
Knowledge and wisdom, intricate
Steadfast love is intimate
We see in his laws, he is the boss
Nothing about him is evil or false
Pure perfection – zero flaws
All of his attributes meet at the cross
The place where Jesus Christ was smashed
To satisfy God’s righteous wrath
Rose from the grave on my behalf
Through faith in Christ He lights our path
Makes believers part of his fam
How does a holy God pardon a man?
Perhaps even harder to understand:
From the beginning was part of his plan
Can someone please explain to me how this song is evil, wicked, or sinful? Thanks!
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]Can someone please explain to me how this song is evil, wicked, or sinful? Thanks!
For the umpteenth time, the issue is the music, not the literature.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
It’s a Thanksgiving miracle. A music thread lives again!
So I’ll ask again: Is this music sinful, evil, bad, whatever?
Please assign it a moral quality, Don.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Greg Long]Revelation 5:8-9 says that angelic creatures sing:Kevin Miller wrote:
RajeshG wrote:
David was a prophet who is the most important musician spoken of in Scripture.
We have David’s lyrics and references to musical instruments, but I wonder what David’s music actually sounded like. I’ll have to ask him to sing something for me when we get to heaven.
Come to think of it, I wonder if we’ll be creating our own music in heaven, or if we’ll just be listening to the angels singing their songs.
Except it doesnt say that angels “sing,” only that they “say.”
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
In the flow of thought in this passage, both the beasts and the elders are the subjects of both verbs, “fell” and “sung.” There is no grammatical basis for limiting the antecedent of “they” in 5:9 to just the 24 elders and saying that they symbolize the Church, etc. This passage says that the beasts, which are angelic creatures, and the elders fell down, having harps, and both groups sing the new song.
[Kevin Miller]Scripture does not reveal whether we’ll be creating our own music in heaven, but it does say that human beings who have been redeemed from the earth will be playing harps and singing in heaven (Rev. 14:1-3; 15:2-4).RajeshG wrote:
David was a prophet who is the most important musician spoken of in Scripture.We have David’s lyrics and references to musical instruments, but I wonder what David’s music actually sounded like. I’ll have to ask him to sing something for me when we get to heaven.
Come to think of it, I wonder if we’ll be creating our own music in heaven, or if we’ll just be listening to the angels singing their songs.
Discussion