Let's Get Clear On This
A variety of electronic periodicals reach my inbox regularly. One that arrives nearly every day is published by a retired seminary professor. Most days I derive a great deal of pleasure and often profit from glancing through his cogitations.
Today’s number, however, evoked a bit of concern. The dear fellow was reprinting some criticisms that he had received. Here is what they said.
The oft-repeated mantra coming out of Dr. Piper and Dr. Storms is that it is impossible for human beings to enjoy too much pleasure. We are made for pleasure, but it’s the pleasure of enjoying God. These guys are full-bore new evangelicals and Piper is a hard line Calvinist…. Why are you promoting this sort of thing?
While I can appreciate many things coming out of Dr. Piper’s ministry, are you endorsing such a leading New Evangelical with no disclaimer?…I am sure you do not endorse the New Evangelicalism that is Dr. Piper’s ministry, but when we simply laud a New Evangelical by attending his conference and praising it, that is the result at the practical level.
These responses are typical of the way that some Fundamentalists view conservative evangelicals in general. These men apparently divide all American Christians into only two categories: Fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals. If a Christian leader is not recognized as a Fundamentalist, then he is considered to be a new evangelical, with all the opprobrium that follows.
This binary system of classification is far too simplistic. American Christianity never has been neatly divided between new evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Other groups have always existed, and one of them is the group that we now designate as conservative evangelicals.
Conservative evangelicalism encompasses a diverse spectrum of Christian leaders. Representatives include John Piper, Mark Dever, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Bruce Ware, Bryan Chapell, Wayne Grudem, D. A. Carson, Al Mohler, Tim Keller, John D. Hannah, Ed Welch, Ligon Duncan, Tom Nettles, C. J. Mahaney, Norman Geisler, and R. C. Sproul. Conservative evangelical organizations include Together for the Gospel (T4G), the Gospel Coalition, the Master’s Seminary, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (at least in its better moments), and Ligonier Ministries. These individuals and organizations exhibit a remarkable range of differences, but they can be classed together because of their vigorous commitment to and defense of the gospel.
Both mainstream ecumenicals and Left-leaning evangelicals would like to classify these individuals as Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals, however, do not perceive themselves as Fundamentalists. Most Fundamentalists also recognize some differences. While there are similarities between them, enough differences remain that Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals ought to be distinguished from each other.
What are those differences? Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.
Conservative evangelicals are different from Fundamentalists, but they are not new evangelicals. New evangelicals were committed to a policy of re-infiltrating ecclesiastical organizations that had been captured by apostates. They wanted to live in peaceful coexistence with apostasy. They were willing to recognize certain apostates as fellow-Christians and to cooperate with them in the Lord’s work. These are attitudes that conservative evangelicals explicitly reject. To apply this label to a conservative evangelical is completely unwarranted.
Frankly, conservative evangelicals do seem to take doctrine more seriously today than many Fundamentalists do. Not that the Fundamentalists are unwilling to discuss doctrine! Many of them are at this moment arguing for a “biblical” doctrine of the perfect preservation of the King James Version or of the Textus Receptus. Others have speculated that the work of redemption was not completed until Christ carried His material blood into the heavenly tabernacle, there to abide as a perpetual memorial before the presence of the Father. Still others have engaged in shrill campaigns of anti-Calvinism while defending theories of human nature that almost beg to be described as Pelagian. Such Fundamentalists are too numerous to be dismissed as aberrations—indeed, their tribe seems to be increasing.
Conservative evangelicals have oriented themselves by fixed points of doctrine. They have scoured apostasy from the world’s largest seminary. They have debunked Open Theism. They have articulated and defended a Complementarian position against evangelical feminism. They have rebutted the opponents of inerrancy. They have exposed and refuted the New Perspective on Paul. They have challenged the Emergent Church and laid bare its bankruptcy.
In other words, because many Fundamentalists appear to have lost their doctrinal sobriety, the initiative for defending the gospel has shifted from Fundamentalism to conservative evangelicalism. Conservative evangelicals have majored on the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. Rather than centering themselves upon theological novelties and idiosyncrasies, they have given themselves to a defense of the Faith.
Nevertheless, some Fundamentalists have managed to convince themselves that conservative evangelicals are the enemy. They insist that John Piper is a neo-evangelical. They actually hope to limit his influence—and the influence of other conservative evangelicals—in their churches and among their younger generation.
The apostle Paul insisted that he was “set for the defense of the gospel.” Fifty years ago, that phrase appeared on nearly every Fundamentalist ordination certificate. Today, however, Fundamentalists simply allow others to defend the gospel for them. The sad truth is that the most forceful defenders of the gospel are no longer to be found within the Fundamentalist camp.
To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?
Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.
Upcoming young leaders are uncertain about the future of Fundamentalism and about their future with it. And no wonder. One Fundamentalist college recently advertized that it does not teach Greek to theology majors. Why? Because the school has an “absolute conviction that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, preserved Word for the English Speaking World.” Contrast that school’s approach with D. A. Carson’s essays in his upcoming book, Collected Writings on Scripture. If young leaders are forced to choose between these two approaches, I have no doubt which choice they will make.
More and more Fundamentalists are coming to the same conclusion. They are not entering into full cooperation with conservative evangelicals, but they are working together in certain targeted areas. Quiet conversations have been occurring between some Fundamentalist leaders and some conservative evangelical leaders for several years. One seminary recently hosted John D. Hannah for a lecture series, and another hosted Ed Welch. A Fundamentalist mission agency brought in John Piper to challenge its missionaries. A leader who is a Fundamentalist pastor and seminary president has written for a conservative evangelical periodical. A very straight-laced Bible college sent its students to T4G. One elder statesman of Fundamentalism chose to preach in the chapel of a conservative evangelical seminary. Other Fundamentalist schools are slated to host Michael Vlach from Master’s Seminary and Mark Dever from Capital Hill Baptist Church. These steps are being taken, not by disaffected young Fundamentalists, but by the older generation of leadership within the mainstream of the Fundamentalist movement.
These leaders are neither abandoning Fundamentalism nor embracing conservative evangelicalism. They are simply recognizing that the Fundamentalist label is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. They are aware that historic, mainstream Fundamentalism has more in common with conservative evangelicals than it does with many who wear the Fundamentalist label.
Even such mild and narrow recognition, however, provokes panic from the Fundamentalist opponents of conservative evangelicals. Like the two critics at the beginning of this essay, these opponents express concern that any level of involvement with conservative evangelicals will constitute a blanket endorsement of their errors. These Fundamentalist critics, however, are seldom willing to express these same concerns over the excesses of the hyper-fundamentalist Right.
We Fundamentalists may not wish to identify with everything that conservative evangelicals say and do. To name these men as neo-evangelicals, nonetheless, is entirely unwarranted. To treat them like enemies or even opponents is to demonize the very people who are the foremost defenders of the gospel today. We do not have to agree in every detail to recognize the value of what they do.
If we did not have conservative evangelicals to guard the borders, the real enemy would have invaded our camp long ago. Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from Open Theism, evangelical feminism, New Perspective theology, and other present-day threats to the gospel. The reason is not that Fundamentalists have kept the enemy at bay. The reason is that other thinkers—mainly conservative evangelicals—have carried the battle to the enemy. Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety.
So let’s get clear on this.
Conservative evangelicals are not our enemies. They are not our opponents. Conservative evangelicals have proven themselves to be allies and even leaders in the defense of the faith.
If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel.
If we believe that we must respond to conservative evangelicalism, then let us begin by addressing the areas in which they have exposed our weakness. Let us refocus our attention upon the exaltation of God. Let us exalt, apply, and defend the gospel in all its fullness. If we were more like what we ought to be, perhaps we would feel less threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of our followers.
Whatever our differences, I thank God for John Piper. I thank God for Mark Dever. I thank God for John MacArthur. I thank God for D. A. Carson. I thank God for a coalition of Christian leaders who have directed our focus to the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. May their defense of the biblical faith prosper.
Penitentiall Hymns. II.
Jeremy Taylor (1613-1667)
Great God, and just! how canst thou see,
Dear God, our miserie,
And not in mercy set us free?
Poor miserable man! how wert thou born,
Weak as the dewy jewels of the Morn,
Rapt up in tender dust,
Guarded with sins and lust,
Who like Court flatterers waite
To serve themselves in thy unhappy fate.
Wealth is a snare, and poverty brings in
Inlets for theft, paving the way for sin:
Each perfum’d vanity doth gently breath
Sin in thy Soul, and whispers it to Death.
Our faults like ulcerated sores do go
O’re the sound flesh, and do corrupt that too.
Lord, we are sick, spotted with sin,
Thick as a crusty Lepers skin,
Like Naaman, bid us wash, yet let it be
In streams of blood that flow from thee:
Then will we sing,
Touch’d by the heavenly Doves bright wing,
Hallelujahs, Psalms and Praise
To God the Lord of night and dayes;
Ever good, and ever just,
Ever high, who ever must
Thus be sung; is still the same;
Eternal praises crown his Name. Amen.
This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
- 195 views
“Don’t kid yourself on the Garlock or even Bauder view of music. You have lost the battle - period.”
As a matter of observation, I would have to say this is very true. I know that some Fundamentalists are still fighting the battle over PowerPoint, but I think that not only is that battle long-since-lost, so is the battle over music, as Joel explains.
My point here is not to say whether that is good or bad — just that it is true.
The churches which are still attracting people with traditional music are the ones which are able to do it with excellence. Interestingly, it seems to me that excellence is also the key to churches which are attracting people with contemporary music.
As a former liturgical Lutheran who loves the pipe organ, you don’t have to convince me of the value of traditional worship. I think there are several reasons that the “traditional” music arguments in Fundamentalism did not pack a real punch, though.
For one, most fundamental Baptists do not sing traditional hymns anyway — they consider 19th-century camp meeting songs to be “traditional hymns.”
Secondly, they approached the topic from the perspective of standards rather than any deep theological, confessional or philosophical base.
These are broad generalities, of course, and forgive me if I am going off topic. Joel’s comment just perked my attention and I thought I would add my two cents. I think these comments do relate to the overall discussion we are having.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
or one, most fundamental Baptists do not sing traditional hymns anyway — they consider 19th-century camp meeting songs to be “traditional hymns.”What if we all did? I mean if both these two problems were eliminated permanently starting this Sunday, what would change? I think we’d still see whatever element is “attracted by” some kind of music going somewhere else. Attraction just doesn’t generally flow along the depth axis these days (has it really ever?)
Secondly… rather than any deep theological, confessional or philosophical base.
But yes, we’re off topic. Paul, want to start a thread on that somewhere and link to it from here?
In the interest of moving back toward topic…
[Joel] 1. You don’t want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well…..Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would! That’s a fact. When Piper stays in the BGC it’s mostly so he can…There’s a nifty radio show I pick up from St.Paul where the hosts hit buttons triggering recordings for certain things callers say (or news reports say). One of them is “Uh… we don’t know that.” You’re reminding me of that lot, Joel. I mean, I can’t prove you’re wrong, but it’s pretty hard to prove Jesus would “work longer” with some of these guys than anybody else would. And I’m not sure Piper has said he stays in the BGC “mostly so” anything.
Don’t mean to nitpick, but you’re making alot of assumptions in your post. But I get that these are your opinions and you are certainly entitled to them.
(But I much appreciate the sympathy for our climatic situation up here in snow country!!)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
My assumptions are informed. Hey, the readers can take them or not. I say what I see. Shalom my man!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog. The diversity of speakers on our platform demonstrates that I’m not into politics and institutional loyalities. We just had a good old camp-meeting with some of the independent, fundamental Baptist Gospel Greats.Marc,
The diversity of speakers demonstrates that you are into a specific segment of independent Baptists- namely, revivalist, King James Version defending, and anti-Calvinist. That’s fine, and that is your right to lead as you believe and are convicted.
However, that does not make you the one true Fundamentalist, nor does it make those who differ from you anti-Fundamentalist in sentiment. You had a decidedly Baptist platform. That’s not a problem for me in this discussion, but you can’t say that is synomynous with a decidedly Fundamentalist one- at least historically. Fundamentalism has historically been a big enough tent to accommodate a much more diverse classification. I am decidedly a Baptist, and intend to remain so. However, I value relationships I have made with men in other denominations. I regularly used to share coffee in Maine with an 90 year old Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who studied under John Murray at Westminster, and rejoice in a common Savior- though we both understood that we couldn’t do much more than that because of the things that divided us. I have been privileged to sit under the preaching ministry of John McKnight- a Fundamentalist and a Methodist. I had a missionary here last night sent from Deer River Bible Church in northern Minnesota- imagine that! A Baptist having a Bible church guy in! Why, last year, we even had a Free Presbyterian preach here (Dr. Michael Barrett).
Level you anti-Fundamentalist charges all you want. I understand that Fundamentalism not only entails separation, but implies a degree of unity with those who labor for a pure Gospel in their own contexts. My primary identity as a pastor and church leader is Baptist- in fact, I would get more specific and talk about a separatist, moderate to strong Calvinist, traditional dispensationalist Baptist. But I also understand that my beliefs and convictions do not and should not deter me from fellowship with Christian brothers who do not share all of those specifics- though they might and do limit that fellowship.
(BTW- I say this only to make the point that your Fundamentalism is much more sectarian than you care to admit. I am not interested in debating whether or not either of us is right in the specifics I listed. Anyone intending to chase that rabbit will do so without me tagging along.)
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
I know that church from my MN days. Good church. You have to check out the Northern Gospel Fellowship - also called the Northern Gospel Mission. Mildred Chapel in Backus was in the mix in the past. Another great church in that group is the Bible Church in Ray, MN. I think that one was named “Northwoods Bible Church.” Ray is 15 miles outside of the Falls. There are dozens of great Bible Churches all over MN. Thrilled your making contact with a few.
Shalom!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
[Greg Linscott]. I, for one, would welcome an article to follow up this one of Bauder’s articulating what the appropriate response should be towards people like Fugate and Monte who attempt to share the Fundamentalist label with us, but who hold little if any of the idea and ideals of Fundamentalism in common.
[Greg Linscott]Greg, with all due respect, it seems that you are the one leveling anti-fundamentalist charges. Aren’t you implying that Marc Monte is not a fundamentalist, especially by claiming that people like Marc Monte “attempt to share the fundamentalist label with us”?Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog. The diversity of speakers on our platform demonstrates that I’m not into politics and institutional loyalities. We just had a good old camp-meeting with some of the independent, fundamental Baptist Gospel Greats.Marc,
The diversity of speakers demonstrates that you are into a specific segment of independent Baptists- namely, revivalist, King James Version defending, and anti-Calvinist. That’s fine, and that is your right to lead as you believe and are convicted.
However, that does not make you the one true Fundamentalist, nor does it make those who differ from you anti-Fundamentalist in sentiment. You had a decidedly Baptist platform. That’s not a problem for me in this discussion, but you can’t say that is synomynous with a decidedly Fundamentalist one- at least historically. Fundamentalism has historically been a big enough tent to accommodate a much more diverse classification. I am decidedly a Baptist, and intend to remain so. However, I value relationships I have made with men in other denominations. I regularly used to share coffee in Maine with an 90 year old Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who studied under John Murray at Westminster, and rejoice in a common Savior- though we both understood that we couldn’t do much more than that because of the things that divided us. I have been privileged to sit under the preaching ministry of John McKnight- a Fundamentalist and a Methodist. I had a missionary here last night sent from Deer River Bible Church in northern Minnesota- imagine that! A Baptist having a Bible church guy in! Why, last year, we even had a Free Presbyterian preach here (Dr. Michael Barrett).
Level you anti-Fundamentalist charges all you want. I understand that Fundamentalism not only entails separation, but implies a degree of unity with those who labor for a pure Gospel in their own contexts. My primary identity as a pastor and church leader is Baptist- in fact, I would get more specific and talk about a separatist, moderate to strong Calvinist, traditional dispensationalist Baptist. But I also understand that my beliefs and convictions do not and should not deter me from fellowship with Christian brothers who do not share all of those specifics- though they might and do limit that fellowship.
(BTW- I say this only to make the point that your Fundamentalism is much more sectarian than you care to admit. I am not interested in debating whether or not either of us is right in the specifics I listed. Anyone intending to chase that rabbit will do so without me tagging along.)
“MacArthur has not replaced Biblical salvation with a works salvation. He’s just emphasizing repentance. To some of you who have down-played the volitional side (i.e. the “submission” part of saving faith), it sounds like works-salvation. This is nothing more than the gospel as spelled out in the Gospels (Repent if you want to be in the Kingdom) as well as James (Saving Faith results in a fruit of works). How in the world can you guys read works-salvation in that? Stop reading Lou and start reading you’re Bibles. To be fair, there have been a few passages that Mac has read his understanding of Lordship salvation that I don’t see in the passage. It is true that one can emphasize repentance disproportionate to faith that you end up switching sanctification with justification. If you read John in context and widely, I don’t believe John has crossed those lines consistently enough to make the charge that he has a false gospel.”
Joel, it is time for Fundamentalists to at least get the Gospel right and to have some understanding of the theology of the Gospel. MacArthur declares a false Gospel and has made his version of the so called Lordship Gospel a distinctive of his church. That makes it an uncompromising doctrine in his mind. He harshly criticizes any who disagree with him. The problem is he misunderstands the biblical definition of faith, the place of repentance in salvation, the definition of repentance, and the place of works with regard to faith. As a result he also misunderstands assurance of salvation.. He has a blatantly false interpretation of many Gospel passages such as the Prodigal Son and the Sermon on the mount. On top of all that is the fact that he tries to sell this unorthodox Gospel as the traditional Gospel as believed by the Reformers and some other Reformed theologians. He is also absolutely wrong in that historical perception. Now, just in case you think that I am being overly harsh please understand that everything I have just stated is also clearly stated with full explanation in the book “Christ The Lord, The Reformation and Lordship Salvation,” Michael S Horton, editor and a co author, WIPF & Stock, Eugene Ore. 1992. Micheal Horton is presently Professor of Theology at Westminster Seminary West. All the authors are Reformed theologians and the forward is by Allister McGrath of Oxford and a world renowned historian, especially of the Reformation.
MacArthur has claimed loyalty to the Reformers. He evidently appealed to some young Fundamentalists who may lack good grounding in historical theology. He also appeals to some who come from what has been traditionally called a “legalistic” oriented Fundamentalism. In their escape from some of that legalism they may have a tendency to not fully apprehend the implications grace. They may have experience with decisional emphasis and a shallow gospel presentation and followup. MacArthur calls that easy believism. The fact is MacArhur’s books declare a gospel that is contrary to the Reformers theology and based on extremely bad exegesis. He presents a gospel with almost no grace. The failure of so many in Fundamentalism to understand this may be one of the 21st century scandals of the Fundamentalist mentality. You mentioned “reading Lou.” I have read his book and it is poorly researched and he does not understand the issues. Lou is a KJVO person. His is also a gospel of legalism.
If you have not read the book “Christ The Lord” please do so. They do a good job of balancing the saving aspects of the Gospel and of our assurance. As a Classic Dispensationalist I do disagree with some of their views on sanctification and some (but not all) of their criticism of Chafer. They are fair in acknowledging that MacArthur does state that salvation is by grace alone through alone. However, they show that his main arguments and other statements refute those assertions and set forth a faith and works gospel. The book also deals with the errors of Zane Hodges.
Other interesting books on the subject are: “Getting the Gospel Wrong, Hixson; Getting the Gospel Right, Olson; Back to Faith, Lybrand.
In my opinion John MacArhur advocates an errant gospel that is sufficiently wrong to make us have a need to protect the flock from his misunderstandings.
Sorry if I am coming across as overly dogmatic and perhaps harsh, but the theological and historical facts are irrefutable if analyzed fairly. MacArthur has been dogmatic and harsh toward those who differ. Misunderstanding and harm has been done to some. No one should endeavor to defend MacArthur until they have read this book. It should put them on the right path. In my opinion these errors need to be exposed.
[Joel Tetreau] 1. You don’t want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well…..Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would!Joel- I think I’m a Type A according to your taxonomy, but I really enjoyed your post anyway. :p The above comment reminded me of a discussion I had recently with someone about how we use Mtt. 18.
Matthew 18:15-16 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
It seems to me that the most common application of this is that we’ll go to a brother who has trespassed in some way, and if he is not immediately on board with our assessment of the situation, we either ignore the rest of the passage, or we wait about 5 seconds to employ the rest of the passage. What about giving the Holy Spirit a chance to work in their hearts? What about spending some time praying and fasting for our brothers before grabbing some friends for our own brand of the Inquisition?
If we are truly going to be meek about the process of restoration (Gal. 6:1), we need to examine ourselves, and remember how long it took for some of us to get our doctrine and behavior in line with the Word of God- and I’m willing to bet none of us have ‘arrived’ just yet.
But I also wonder if correction and restoration are even in our minds. I get the feeling that a few people would be sorely disappointed if some folks ‘got right’.
Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog.Jason,
My statement about “anti-fundamentalist charges” stems from this statement from Monte. If there is any anti-Fundamentalism here, it is against Fundamentalism as men like him and Fugate are re-defining it to be, not what it was since its inception, or even when it parted ways with the New Evangelicals later on.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
The charge of my re-defining fundamentalism is a little over the top, don’t you think? Fact is, I am not re-defining it; I am simply re-emphasizing it! Fundamentalism, you agree, has always been a “big tent” movement. Why is it that you have more toleration in the movement for baby baptizers than you do for “revivalists?” Both were a part of the initial movement, so why single out one “camp” as re-defining the movement.
If you were to visit my church, you would find a conservative, traditial fundamental Baptist church with Christ-honoring music and a warm evangelistic atmosphere. You would notice conservative dress attire worn by our members. You would find our people passionate about winning souls. You’d likely witness a baptism or two. The bus kids might make a little noise, but a worker would deal with it quickly. If you came on a Wednesday night, you would find me in a verse-by-verse study of the book of Jeremiah. Expositional preaching is the norm. In fact, a former staff member from the old 4th Baptist (the church where I grew up) visited a while back, and he told me that mine is a church “of which Dr. Clearwaters would be proud.” That’s a high complement to me since R.V. Clearwaters is a personal hero of mine. Fact is, our church has been described as a “blast from the past.” We even use hymnbooks! (John R. Rice’s “Soul-stirring Songs and Hymns”—can you believe it?)
When I examine the Greek New Testament, I always look at Scrivner’s TR as my authority. Is that a sin? Remember, John Calvin himself used the “Traditional Text.” Why does my doing so make me a criminal? The settings on your Bible Works program differ from mine. Does that make me “hetrodox?” The ongoing bashing of TR people is illogical and contradicts almost 1,900 years of church history. Is it non-fundamental to believe that the TR is God’s Word? (I became convinced of the importance of a settled New Testament text as a Greek minor at BJU in the 1980’s. I watched sophomore Greek students use the critical apparatus to make “decisions” as to the New Testament text. It was arrogant, obnoxious and—most of all—really, really ugly!) Old school fundamentalism widely, though not exclusively, used the KJV. What’s wrong with my continuing in their tradition?
As far as being anti-calvinist, I plead guilty. But there are a lot of fundamentalists who don’t sign on to Calvin’s Augstinian theology. In fact, I have no reason to even read Calvin. I have a “more sure word of prophecy.” So do you. My point: it’s not necessary to be a Calvinist to be a fundamentalist. I view it as a distraction. My point: Does my not being a Calvinst make me less of a fundamentalist? No.
Am I a Baptist? Yes. Do I have Baptist speakers on my platform? Yes. Seems consistent with my doctrinal position. Why fault a guy for cheering for his own team?
Am I a “revivalist?” Yes. Remember, fundamentalism was born in the fires of revival. Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. was a revivalist, too. I think I’m on pretty safe ground with that position.
Well now, is Marc Monte a fundamentalist? Yes. Is he “re-defining” fundamentalism? No. Is his brand of fundamentalism the only brand? Decidedly NO! But is his brand Biblicist! YES! And it’s a lot of fun, too! Come on in! The water’s fine!
Just clinging to my guns and religion... www.faithbaptistavon.com
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Where I am taking exception is not that you hold the many positions that you have said you do. Rather, it is by emphasizing them as you have while simultaneously leveling “anti-fundamentalist” tendencies and expressed concerns/taken exception with what Bauder has stated (seemingly on similar basis), that you equate those positions to Fundamentalism. There is room for a great deal of what you describe yourself to hold to under Fundamentalism- if not, indeed, all of it. What I will argue, however, is that is not limited to what you describe yourself and your church as. If you walk into a church that featured relaxed casual attire, people dedicated to intentional discipleship and equipping, children sitting with parents or incorporated into family units (in and out of services), reading from their ESVs and singing the hymns of Wesley and Watts (interspersed with Anderson and Getty) rather than the gospel songs of Crosby and Sankey, it can be every bit as much a Fundamentalist congregation as what you described yours as being. There is room for latitude beyond what either of us have described, actually, because those issues have little if anything to do with Fundamentalism.
Now, there may be appropriate occasions to narrow your fellowship and emphasis. Your conference could serve as a good example of such an occasion. But don’t claim or imply that such things constitute what defines a good Fundamentalist- that attributes more than the label signifies. Pointing us back to the topic at hand, Bauder is consistent with these principles as a Fundamentalist in what he has written in that he never stated that there are not distinctions between the separatist Fundamentalist and the conservative evangelical. Rather, he addressed the attitude and demeanor with which those differences should be processed and articulated. I know for a fact that Kevin Bauder clearly understands what divides him from John Piper, et al. He does not believe that gives him (or any other Fundamentalist) license, however, to oppose them in the same way we oppose Mormons or Buddhists, and has issued a statement of rebuke to that end. You guys can drag all these other things (music, bus ministry etc etc) into it, but the bottom line is that Bauder is addressing Fundamentalist attitude and demeanor, not proposing a merger between two sides. He is inviting self-examination of those attitudes and expressions on our (Fundamenatlists’) part by pointing out what is commendable of these others. What is sad is that so many of us reading are acting like feuding children, so obsessed with the wrong of the other that we refuse to take responsibility for the sinful choices we ourselves make- instead we insist on justifying why our responses were or continue to be warranted. But this isn’t about where the CE men are wrong- that was never Bauder’s purpose in this article. They aren’t his audience, and don’t read him (at least not to the degree that his primary constituency would). It is where we are.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
http://www.sharperiron.org/forum/thread-lordship
Thanks!
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Your last post clears that up, and I feel accepted within the broad tent of fundamentalism once again! It’s good to know that there’s a place for old-time religion, revivalistic, TR, anti-calvinists in the movement. In the words of Garrison Keillor, we’re just “happy to be here!” May our tribe increase! And may the fellowship be sweet!
(I’m glad that fundamentalism includes differing perspectives! If not, this blog would be boring. If everyone agreed with me, I’d change my position just to spice things up! —just kidding!)
Just clinging to my guns and religion... www.faithbaptistavon.com
I apologize- it sure seemed like your insertion of the topic of conference was an indirect response to Bauder’s article, though.
As far as the aberration goes- that would be a topic worth pursuing sometime, though not here. I believe there is an argument to be made that Fugate would present problems predominately because of his adding to Scripture in regards to Bibliology- but again, another discussion for another thread.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Discussion