Let's Get Clear On This

NickOfTime

A variety of electronic periodicals reach my inbox regularly. One that arrives nearly every day is published by a retired seminary professor. Most days I derive a great deal of pleasure and often profit from glancing through his cogitations.

Today’s number, however, evoked a bit of concern. The dear fellow was reprinting some criticisms that he had received. Here is what they said.

The oft-repeated mantra coming out of Dr. Piper and Dr. Storms is that it is impossible for human beings to enjoy too much pleasure. We are made for pleasure, but it’s the pleasure of enjoying God. These guys are full-bore new evangelicals and Piper is a hard line Calvinist…. Why are you promoting this sort of thing?

While I can appreciate many things coming out of Dr. Piper’s ministry, are you endorsing such a leading New Evangelical with no disclaimer?…I am sure you do not endorse the New Evangelicalism that is Dr. Piper’s ministry, but when we simply laud a New Evangelical by attending his conference and praising it, that is the result at the practical level.

These responses are typical of the way that some Fundamentalists view conservative evangelicals in general. These men apparently divide all American Christians into only two categories: Fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals. If a Christian leader is not recognized as a Fundamentalist, then he is considered to be a new evangelical, with all the opprobrium that follows.

This binary system of classification is far too simplistic. American Christianity never has been neatly divided between new evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Other groups have always existed, and one of them is the group that we now designate as conservative evangelicals.

Conservative evangelicalism encompasses a diverse spectrum of Christian leaders. Representatives include John Piper, Mark Dever, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Bruce Ware, Bryan Chapell, Wayne Grudem, D. A. Carson, Al Mohler, Tim Keller, John D. Hannah, Ed Welch, Ligon Duncan, Tom Nettles, C. J. Mahaney, Norman Geisler, and R. C. Sproul. Conservative evangelical organizations include Together for the Gospel (T4G), the Gospel Coalition, the Master’s Seminary, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (at least in its better moments), and Ligonier Ministries. These individuals and organizations exhibit a remarkable range of differences, but they can be classed together because of their vigorous commitment to and defense of the gospel.

Both mainstream ecumenicals and Left-leaning evangelicals would like to classify these individuals as Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals, however, do not perceive themselves as Fundamentalists. Most Fundamentalists also recognize some differences. While there are similarities between them, enough differences remain that Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals ought to be distinguished from each other.

What are those differences? Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.

Conservative evangelicals are different from Fundamentalists, but they are not new evangelicals. New evangelicals were committed to a policy of re-infiltrating ecclesiastical organizations that had been captured by apostates. They wanted to live in peaceful coexistence with apostasy. They were willing to recognize certain apostates as fellow-Christians and to cooperate with them in the Lord’s work. These are attitudes that conservative evangelicals explicitly reject. To apply this label to a conservative evangelical is completely unwarranted.

Frankly, conservative evangelicals do seem to take doctrine more seriously today than many Fundamentalists do. Not that the Fundamentalists are unwilling to discuss doctrine! Many of them are at this moment arguing for a “biblical” doctrine of the perfect preservation of the King James Version or of the Textus Receptus. Others have speculated that the work of redemption was not completed until Christ carried His material blood into the heavenly tabernacle, there to abide as a perpetual memorial before the presence of the Father. Still others have engaged in shrill campaigns of anti-Calvinism while defending theories of human nature that almost beg to be described as Pelagian. Such Fundamentalists are too numerous to be dismissed as aberrations—indeed, their tribe seems to be increasing.

Conservative evangelicals have oriented themselves by fixed points of doctrine. They have scoured apostasy from the world’s largest seminary. They have debunked Open Theism. They have articulated and defended a Complementarian position against evangelical feminism. They have rebutted the opponents of inerrancy. They have exposed and refuted the New Perspective on Paul. They have challenged the Emergent Church and laid bare its bankruptcy.

In other words, because many Fundamentalists appear to have lost their doctrinal sobriety, the initiative for defending the gospel has shifted from Fundamentalism to conservative evangelicalism. Conservative evangelicals have majored on the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. Rather than centering themselves upon theological novelties and idiosyncrasies, they have given themselves to a defense of the Faith.

Nevertheless, some Fundamentalists have managed to convince themselves that conservative evangelicals are the enemy. They insist that John Piper is a neo-evangelical. They actually hope to limit his influence—and the influence of other conservative evangelicals—in their churches and among their younger generation.

The apostle Paul insisted that he was “set for the defense of the gospel.” Fifty years ago, that phrase appeared on nearly every Fundamentalist ordination certificate. Today, however, Fundamentalists simply allow others to defend the gospel for them. The sad truth is that the most forceful defenders of the gospel are no longer to be found within the Fundamentalist camp.

To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?

Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.

Upcoming young leaders are uncertain about the future of Fundamentalism and about their future with it. And no wonder. One Fundamentalist college recently advertized that it does not teach Greek to theology majors. Why? Because the school has an “absolute conviction that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, preserved Word for the English Speaking World.” Contrast that school’s approach with D. A. Carson’s essays in his upcoming book, Collected Writings on Scripture. If young leaders are forced to choose between these two approaches, I have no doubt which choice they will make.

More and more Fundamentalists are coming to the same conclusion. They are not entering into full cooperation with conservative evangelicals, but they are working together in certain targeted areas. Quiet conversations have been occurring between some Fundamentalist leaders and some conservative evangelical leaders for several years. One seminary recently hosted John D. Hannah for a lecture series, and another hosted Ed Welch. A Fundamentalist mission agency brought in John Piper to challenge its missionaries. A leader who is a Fundamentalist pastor and seminary president has written for a conservative evangelical periodical. A very straight-laced Bible college sent its students to T4G. One elder statesman of Fundamentalism chose to preach in the chapel of a conservative evangelical seminary. Other Fundamentalist schools are slated to host Michael Vlach from Master’s Seminary and Mark Dever from Capital Hill Baptist Church. These steps are being taken, not by disaffected young Fundamentalists, but by the older generation of leadership within the mainstream of the Fundamentalist movement.

These leaders are neither abandoning Fundamentalism nor embracing conservative evangelicalism. They are simply recognizing that the Fundamentalist label is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. They are aware that historic, mainstream Fundamentalism has more in common with conservative evangelicals than it does with many who wear the Fundamentalist label.

Even such mild and narrow recognition, however, provokes panic from the Fundamentalist opponents of conservative evangelicals. Like the two critics at the beginning of this essay, these opponents express concern that any level of involvement with conservative evangelicals will constitute a blanket endorsement of their errors. These Fundamentalist critics, however, are seldom willing to express these same concerns over the excesses of the hyper-fundamentalist Right.

We Fundamentalists may not wish to identify with everything that conservative evangelicals say and do. To name these men as neo-evangelicals, nonetheless, is entirely unwarranted. To treat them like enemies or even opponents is to demonize the very people who are the foremost defenders of the gospel today. We do not have to agree in every detail to recognize the value of what they do.

If we did not have conservative evangelicals to guard the borders, the real enemy would have invaded our camp long ago. Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from Open Theism, evangelical feminism, New Perspective theology, and other present-day threats to the gospel. The reason is not that Fundamentalists have kept the enemy at bay. The reason is that other thinkers—mainly conservative evangelicals—have carried the battle to the enemy. Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety.

So let’s get clear on this.

Conservative evangelicals are not our enemies. They are not our opponents. Conservative evangelicals have proven themselves to be allies and even leaders in the defense of the faith.

If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel.

If we believe that we must respond to conservative evangelicalism, then let us begin by addressing the areas in which they have exposed our weakness. Let us refocus our attention upon the exaltation of God. Let us exalt, apply, and defend the gospel in all its fullness. If we were more like what we ought to be, perhaps we would feel less threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of our followers.

Whatever our differences, I thank God for John Piper. I thank God for Mark Dever. I thank God for John MacArthur. I thank God for D. A. Carson. I thank God for a coalition of Christian leaders who have directed our focus to the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. May their defense of the biblical faith prosper.

Penitentiall Hymns. II.

Jeremy Taylor (1613-1667)

Great God, and just! how canst thou see,
Dear God, our miserie,
And not in mercy set us free?
Poor miserable man! how wert thou born,
Weak as the dewy jewels of the Morn,
Rapt up in tender dust,
Guarded with sins and lust,
Who like Court flatterers waite
To serve themselves in thy unhappy fate.
Wealth is a snare, and poverty brings in
Inlets for theft, paving the way for sin:
Each perfum’d vanity doth gently breath
Sin in thy Soul, and whispers it to Death.
Our faults like ulcerated sores do go
O’re the sound flesh, and do corrupt that too.
Lord, we are sick, spotted with sin,
Thick as a crusty Lepers skin,
Like Naaman, bid us wash, yet let it be
In streams of blood that flow from thee:
Then will we sing,
Touch’d by the heavenly Doves bright wing,
Hallelujahs, Psalms and Praise
To God the Lord of night and dayes;
Ever good, and ever just,
Ever high, who ever must
Thus be sung; is still the same;
Eternal praises crown his Name. Amen.


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

Discussion

[Ron Bean] The following is taken from an article published in the Christian Life Magazine (March 1956) entitled, “Is Evangelical Theology Changing?” There are the characteristics of new evangelicalism from the article:

4. A Shift Away From So-Called Extreme Dispensationalism. “The trend today is away from dispensationalism—away from the Scofield Notes…in fact, many…rarely use the word dispensation now.”
Progressive dispensationalism is woven out of the same cloth as new evangelicalism, foisted upon fundamentalism in the name of scholarship. I am always amazed that some who want to be so careful in their outward associations are willing to accept the inward theological compromises of the progressive view. That to me is a non-sequitor, and I question whether it can be sustained over time.

[Ron Bean] Historically, I don’t see that dispensationalism is a fundamental of the faith. Other than questioning dispensationalism and increased emphasis on seminary training, I don’t see these traits in the CE’s with whom I am familiar.
Since all the prophets and apostles were dispensationalists, I thought I would be one too! 8-)

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

Might be yet another topic for a separate thread… but I know too many progressive dispies and non-dispies too well to associate their efforts with new evangelicalism or lump it under “in the name of scholarship.” I mostly don’t agree with them (being a dispy, myself), but that’s another matter.

Personally, I’d love to see Fundamentalism have more variety in that department, not less. As I see it, the fewer the things you fight for, the more importance you attach to the things that you do fight for. To me, the fundamentals are too important to add anything to them at the same level.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Aaron,

I understand your point about the “fundamentals,” and I do believe in fellowship around the fundamentals with non-dispensationalists.

However, as I wrote in post #4 regarding Dr. Bauder’s article:

“As I read the article, the only clarification I would personally make is that I would put more weight on someone’s theological convictions (or, possibly, his expertise in one particular area) than whether or not he is accepted as a fundamentalist or a conservative evangelical, etc.”

I am not sure that building a wider version of fundamentalism with more theological variety would be of interest to me personally. I appreciate the original article for different reasons than that. I guess that takes us back around the circle to the questions of (a) is there still a fundamentalist movement, and (b) should there be more of one going forward.

I will stand by my statement that, “Progressive dispensationalism is woven out of the same cloth as new evangelicalism.” But its defense is probably more along the lines of a doctoral diss. than a blog, so I will play nice and drop it for now. ;)

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

It looks as though this post has run its limit. Lines have been drawn and minds remain unchanged. Joel Tetreau spoke of tearing down the wall between CEs and Fundys. So for all of you who have no real concern about the CEs then go ahead come out of the closet and tear down that wall. We have heard from those in CE that there are Fundys who attend their conferences rather secretively, so come out and declare yourself, openly go to their conferences and invite these men and their ministries to your services. Stop twiddly-dinking (complex Greek word for those who don’t know ;) ) around. As indicated from the postings you really don’t care about what we who have concerns about these men and their ministres think, so go ahead and take the out the sledgehammers and get to work. Enjoy the rubble that will be created.

Adios, amigos.

Actually the word “closet” is a contracted form of the mathematical term “closed set”. Thus the invitation to “come out of the closed set” is an enticement to leave the safety of the walls of the fundamentalist village and experience “the world”.

(I need some sleep.)

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

[Brian Ernsberger] It looks as though this post has run its limit. Lines have been drawn and minds remain unchanged. Joel Tetreau spoke of tearing down the wall between CEs and Fundys. So for all of you who have no real concern about the CEs then go ahead come out of the closet and tear down that wall. We have heard from those in CE that there are Fundys who attend their conferences rather secretively, so come out and declare yourself, openly go to their conferences and invite these men and their ministries to your services. Stop twiddly-dinking around. As indicated from the postings you really don’t care about what we who have concerns about these men and their ministres think, so go ahead and take the out the sledgehammers and get to work. Enjoy the rubble that will be created.
Brian, your point might be easier to take if there weren’t so many passages in the New Testament that teach unity based on doctrine.

If MacArthur and Doran share the same doctrine [just to put two random names out there] have the same doctrine, then why should they be ‘enemies’ or ‘opponents’? It’s the same Lord they’re serving. If you want to elevate musical styles [for example] to the status of a fundamental, then your position is consistent, I think. But does difference in musical styles really add to or deplete from salvation by faith through grace alone, which is the core of the gospel that we preach?

If I’m serving the Lord in New York, and the closest other Christians near me are from Bob Jones and TMS, then why on earth shouldn’t I cooperate with them as long as we share the same doctrinal positions?

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

[Brian Ernsberger] Enjoy the rubble that will be created.
Brian…what rubble? Can you be more specific? It’s makes a creative ending to your post with the analogy used…but I have a hard time calling unity rubble…or a greater gospel impact rubble…or god-glorifying love rubble. Remember, we are talking about people who agree on the majors but may not agree on the minors. Where’s the rubble when they work together?

Guys,

As much as I appreciate the topic, the conversation and the “iron sharpening iron,” I wonder where all this is going, or how much value it really has.

We talk sometimes as if we are addressing a denomination which is considering joining in communion with a sister denomination — like there is some big secret just around the corner (or in the closet) waiting to be revealed.

What, pray tell, does tearing down the wall look like? A couple of guys boarding a plane and going to Shepherds Conference??

In reality, fundamentalist churches, schools and ministries have been cooperating with their CE counterparts for a long, long time on many levels. The lines have been blurred, not solid, probably since the beginning. I could give lots of examples, but is there really a need?

Many of us like Bauder’s article and/or marvel at the fact that a man in his position had the courage to reduce some of these things to writing, but I guess I have to ask — what are we arguing for or against?

What, if anything tangible is going to change?

Am I missing something here? Really — am I missing something??

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

Immediate Dismissal…

That’s what I see could (and should) change, Paul.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

[Greg Linscott] Immediate Dismissal…

That’s what I see could (and should) change, Paul.
Amen, Pastor Linscott…

And the results are very dangerous for the church, IMO

Short answer (going to a missions banquet)… there is a tendency to make rush assessments and assumptions, often accompanied by hostility. Those need to stop- even as one might also realize that the differences might limit the ability too cooperate.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

But you are talking about heart attitudes and spiritual priorities…not organizational structure. There is no way to determine, mandate, enforce — or even measure — such a change.

Maybe I am missing some of the emotion in this conversation because I was not raised a fundamentalist. I have pretty much always had the attitude you guys are arguing for. The only time I felt peer pressure to conform differently — at least that I gave into — was for a time in college. After a while I realized how destructive that was.

For my part, I have already “torn down the wall” by determining where I will invest my time and energy… To use political terms, I vote with my feet and my wallet.

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

To Brian E… (http://sharperiron.org/article/lets-get-clear#comment-10949) A major point in the essay seemed to me to be that the wall has already long been crumbling, partly because it was so thin to begin with.

And, though I know lots of fundamentalists who attend the CE’s conferences openly, I don’t know of any who have done so “secretly.” (But then, if I knew, it wouldn’t be a secret anymore, would it? Nobody’s asked to sign a nondisclosure agreement or anything.)

As for me, I haven’t made to any of them yet. I’ve had other priorities. Maybe one of these days. I appreciate a lot of what the CE’s have done and do, but I’m not enamored or enthralled or anything. It might be nice to make it to Shepherd’s or T4G or etc. one of these years, but so far I’ve not been able to convince myself it’s worth going all the way to CA (or anywhere else more than two states away) for.

So, I wish them continued success in the good they do (and hope they’ll do some rethinking soon on the other stuff) and otherwise mind my own business.

What if everybody just did that? It’s not as exciting as “tearing down walls” and stuff (and way less exciting than lobbing rhetorical grenades at them) but it’s fair and doesn’t erase anything important.

(Come to think of it… this is pretty much what both Bauder and Doran are saying, isn’t it?)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Paul J. Scharf] But you are talking about heart attitudes and spiritual priorities…not organizational structure. There is no way to determine, mandate, enforce — or even measure — such a change.
Paul…paraphrasing Inigo Montoya, “I don’t think you mean what you think you mean.”

I’m sure you are not saying good debate (like this) can’t help people change heart attitudes…or that you can’t see or measure that change. Debate such as this was the beginning of such changes in my life. I had to think and defend my views…and couldn’t in some cases which forced me to rethink. Debates like this on SI have helped refine several of my views. If we can effect some change in the hearts of some people, isn’t this a worthy conversation?

You are correct, I don’t disagree with any of that. That part is fine — and I am not trying to stifle the conversation at all.

I just don’t think I know what “tearing down the wall” looks like.

Let’s say some little “KJV-inspired”Bible college brings Jonny Mac in to be their conference speaker next year.

Would that signal that “the wall is coming down”? Maybe, but in an official sense it wouldn’t really mean anything.

Fundamentalism is not a denomination — it is at best a philosphy or worldview construct. So there is nothing to tear down…

To say something similar in a different way — I know a bunch of IFCA guys who are as comfortable at “___ Baptist Bible College” as they would be at Shepherds Conference. And they don’t go through any mental gymnastics trying to figure out whether the crowd is CE, Baptist, etc.

They wouldn’t even dress differently…

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

[Paul J. Scharf] Fundamentalism is not a denomination
Well, TECHINICALLY it is NOT but PRACTICALLY it is. We fight for who’s in it and who’s not. We differentiate SBC from IFB. We have our colleges and seminaries. Our mantra is independence. But really? Do we do things out of independence? Yeah right. Hegemony is forceful in IFBdom.

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

[Greg Linscott]… there is a tendency to make rush assessments and assumptions, often accompanied by hostility. Those need to stop- even as one might also realize that the differences might limit the ability too cooperate.
I think what Fundies lost somewhere along the way is that one of the goals of separation is restoration. We’re very skilled at separating, but a major component of separation has been, in my experience, an overt hostility, when we are actually called to be meek and introspective when such a step must be taken. (Eph. 4:1-3, Gal. 6:1)

2Th 3:14-15 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

It’s just as wrong to think we’re David and everyone who doesn’t agree with us is Goliath (OFF with his head!) as it is to be kissy-face with every heretical system that comes down the pike. Extremism isn’t by default a sign of dedication to spiritual and moral purity. IFBism in my formative years was the poster child for this verse:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

IFBism’s ‘life verse’ should be-

Heb 12:12-13 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

What lacks IMO is the depth and strength that spiritual discernment and maturity offer. Weak doctrine leads to weaker practice, and then all you have left is the window dressing- the right music, the right clothes, the ‘right’ associations… but no ability to help anyone else, because if you bend down to help someone you 1) might get your hands dirty and someone might see your dirty hands and think you are one of THEM 2) you are going to fall off the cliff yourself because your spine is made of Jell-O.

I was telling my dh last night that few things bug me more than when someone says they won’t read any other book besides the Bible- and this is said to impress folks with the depth of their spirituality. I just about lose my salvation when I hear that. And what’s really scary is when you know that person spends anywhere from 4-6 hours a day in front of a television. But I’ve been in groups where someone who said that was greeted by oohs and aahs… http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick007.gif That’s the kind of -ism I’d like to see not only torn down, but incinerated and the ashes blown into space.

And maybe that’s where CEs have come in and shown Fundies up- I see an emphasis on being well-read, studying beyond the pages of The Daily Bread, and testing the waters, even when the testing looks like insubordinate questioning. Our faith and practice is only as good as our ability to withstand some poking and prodding. If we’ve got beliefs of substance to stand and defend, then let’s- and welcome the testing of our defenses.

Dr. Bauder,

Thank you very much for your comments. It is very nice to see these things brought to light, for it has been the concern of many whose voices are less influential. Thank you again.

His grace is sufficient,

Caleb Sisson

Dr Bauder

Thanks so much for the perspectives and your guts…and I’m glad your office is about 30 feet from mine. You are the Cheshire Cat, as always.

To the rest of the fine posters…

I have been saying for some time that it is an ad hoc world. The iron and clay are mixed in fundamentalist toe-land for sure.

We all will continue to pick and choose where to go to conference, where to get good resources, where to get our Evereadys charged. What is a “movement” anyway…anymore? Let’s be true to our convictions based in deep truth and have great fellowship in the love of the Lord.

Jim McLeish

Jim McLeish Plymouth MN

Recently I was reading the compiled sermons of the Fundamental Baptist Congress of North America, 1978. Dr. Clearwaters spoke on the topic “The Fundamentals of the Faith.” In that message, he presented an interesting—and much needed—perspective on Luther and Calvin:
“There are others who prefer tomake the Bible a second or third degree authority. Dillenberger and Welch (Harvard and Yale scholars) in their book, Protestant Christianity, say that Luther and Calvin did not accept the Bible in its literalness as do we fundamentalists. These authors say that Luther and Calvin derived their teaching from the Bible. This may explain why they taught the unbiblical union of Church and State (both were persecutors). They also derived the unbiblical teaching of infant baptism. They also derived the unbiblical teaching of the hierarchy of the church to ordain the ministry and own the church property. They also derived such unbiblical doctrines as baptismal regeneration and sacramental grace, liited atonement, and irresistible grace.” (The Biblical Faith of Baptists, Volume VI, page 116)
I guess that sums up Doc’s view of the CE Protestants! He being dead yet speaketh.

_________________

Mod Note: Edited to fix formatting

Just clinging to my guns and religion... www.faithbaptistavon.com

What is more important—going back the historical roots of an institution or doing what is biblical now? I think Dr. Bauder’s point is that Fundamentalism (the historical movement) has lost its focus and needs to return back to its biblical roots and reasoning. If that were to happen, the “line” between Fundamentalists and CE’s would virtually be nonexistent.

IMO, what Fundamentalism originally tried to do in the past, is being taken on by Conservative Evangelicals.




edited to remove reference to post that no longer exists

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

Closing thread to evaluate some things… some of what has been posted in the guise of RV Clearwaters crosses the line into pure personal attack …

The thread may reopen after we sort out some details.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

OK, for those just joining us, here’s what happened:

Dwight posted a comment critical of Dr. Bauder from a sort of R. V. Clearwaters point of view.

He did clearly indicate his own authorship of the post at the bottom. No problem there.

However, the post contained a mixture of allowable opinion but also some of what I deemed to be personal attacks… in addition to straying a bit widely from the topic.

The usual secret, smoke-filled-room (joke… the smoke is “virtual”) moderator discussion about these things was curtailed by folks’ work situations and such as well as the fact that I felt the need to act somewhat quickly. So don’t blame the moderators.

Sometimes we have to draw some almost impossibly fine lines around here. We want diverse opinions, but don’t want personal attacks. But sometimes there are relevant opinions about people so it gets tricky. In any case, I’m inviting Dwight and those sympathetic to his point of view to post again, but let’s try to avoid anything that calls a man’s character, genuineness as a Christian or motivations into question.

If you believe R. V. Clearwaters would not approve of the distinction Kevin is making in the essay, etc., that’s certainly fair. Prove it.

If you believe his criticisms of fundamentalism’s weaknesses are exaggerated or unfounded, fair enough. Prove that.

Thanks.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

A couple of years ago, I suggested that polka music was the answer in the quest for Christian unity. Polka music provides enough liveliness to satisfy those with CE leanings yet is still conservative enough that those who have no CE leanings should be alright. If everyone would have just listened to this counsel, we might have been able to change the name of this site to campfire.org (I have no idea if there is a website by this name out there) and would all be in sweet unity roasting are marshmallows and eating a keilbasa or two.

:)
What? Polka music is heretical!! The only unifying music for fellowship is country western. It can be upbeat but not harsh or offensive and if drums are used they are always muted.

Fundamentalist country western is the music of unity. A few hats and boots and the smell of the range. Horses and Cattle on the platform. YAHEE 8-)

By the way, speaking of unity, is Bauder Fundamentalist, Conservative Evangelical, or New Evangelical? Oh wait, he is President of Central Baptist Seminary so he must be Fundamentalist? ;)

[Pastor Marc Monte] Recently I was reading the compiled sermons of the Fundamental Baptist Congress of North America, 1978. Dr. Clearwaters spoke on the topic “The Fundamentals of the Faith.” In that message, he presented an interesting—and much needed—perspective on Luther and Calvin:
“There are others who prefer tomake the Bible a second or third degree authority. Dillenberger and Welch (Harvard and Yale scholars) in their book, Protestant Christianity, say that Luther and Calvin did not accept the Bible in its literalness as do we fundamentalists. These authors say that Luther and Calvin derived their teaching from the Bible. This may explain why they taught the unbiblical union of Church and State (both were persecutors). They also derived the unbiblical teaching of infant baptism. They also derived the unbiblical teaching of the hierarchy of the church to ordain the ministry and own the church property. They also derived such unbiblical doctrines as baptismal regeneration and sacramental grace, liited atonement, and irresistible grace.” (The Biblical Faith of Baptists, Volume VI, page 116)
I guess that sums up Doc’s view of the CE Protestants! He being dead yet speaketh.

________________________________________________________________________________

Why don’t you quote Clearwaters on Translations? In his 1974 message at one of Central’s “workshops” he stated he could only recommend two translations. They were the KJV and the NASB. I was there. The NKJV was not yet in existence. He had a Masters in Greek literature from the University of Chicago. He was no KJVO.

He being dead yet speaketh again.

If we could take all who are KJVO, and all Pastors who put DR. in front of their name, which refers to an honorary degree from some third rate school or some post office box, and persuade them to stop calling themselves Fundamentalists, we may have few Fundamentalists left. Then we could get on with a clear definition that has some historical meaning.

_________________

Mod Note: Edited to fix formatting

Everyone knows that the reason why Saul threw a javelin at David was because he was playing a harp instead of a banjo.

I agree with what Dr. Bauder has written (and not because I am a student getting ready to graduate from CBTS in May)

I have enjoyed reading all the fodder and exegesis on every sentence and word in an attempt to find some hidden meaning in what Dr. Bauder has written.

Instead of speculation and asking others in this forum/thread what they think Dr. Bauder meant when he made a particular statement, why not ask him instead of speculating or offering your own version of it?

No one can speak for what Dr. Bauder has written, except for the man himself.

I wonder if he will make an appearance here and attempt to answer everyone’s questions in a single post?

In the meantime, keep the laughs coming, as no problems are solved by a multiplicity of posts…. except for Joel’s –(straight ahead, Joel)

I have asked a few times on this thread for people to tell me what tearing down the wall looks like, and have not really gotten any satisfactory answers.

I still do not know of any way to officially change fundamentalism as a movement, but here are a few starter suggestions for making progress which relate to pet peeves I have had for quite some time:

1) (This pertains mostly to colleges and seminaries.) Bring nationally known speakers in for Bible conferences and special events — even if they do not fit the school’s normal profile. Higher education should be about being exposed to new ideas and having once-in-a-lifetime-type experiences, not just about being safe or building a constituency for the institution. Bring in a well-known speaker who specializes in an area which the school agrees with him on — rather than “Dr. Blue Redyellow, pastor of Flyspeck Baptist Church in Red River City, Kansas, a great friend of the college.”

2) Cut all the normal “fundamentalist caveats” when introducing someone — even in a church Sunday school class. No need to say, “Now we would not agree with this man on everything, and he is a new evangelical…” before quoting someone. We are not two years old. Maybe if we fed the people in the pews with less baby food we would have fewer spiritually overgrown-babes.

3) Pray publicly for even those with whom you are not in full agreement and find other ways to show support for brothers in Christ in every way possible. I was actually blown away a few years ago when my pastor at the time prayed publicly for a large, thriving, contemporary Ev. Free church whose young senior pastor had died suddenly and tragically. Then my pastor even went to the viewing at the church! I strongly commend him for it. I have seen many examples of the other kind.

Well — just a few ideas to get us started. Perhaps others can add more. Of course, some fundamental churches and schools have been practicing these things for years, but others have a long way to go.

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

[Pastor Joe Roof] A couple of years ago, I suggested that polka music was the answer in the quest for Christian unity. Polka music provides enough liveliness to satisfy those with CE leanings yet is still conservative enough that those who have no CE leanings should be alright. If everyone would have just listened to this counsel, we might have been able to change the name of this site to campfire.org (I have no idea if there is a website by this name out there) and would all be in sweet unity roasting are marshmallows and eating a keilbasa or two.

:)
I love a good polka! The accordion is an under-used instrument. What you say tongue and cheek, I like — literally. Only we’ll have to change the words: “Roll out the Bible, we’ll have a Bible of fun!” And, “I don’t want her, you can have her, she’s too ungodly for me.” Instead of the Pennsylvania Polka, we could have the “Transformation Polka.” The possibilities are endless!

You better be careful, Joe, about your teasing. Someone may take you up on it!

Ed “the Polka King” Vasicek

PS— The Mrs. and I also dance the polka. But we wouldn’t dance during church, don’t worry!

"The Midrash Detective"

that if this thread went on long enough, we’d eventually wind up talking about music…

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Are you sure it’s good music if it doesn’t have an accordian?

Hoping to shed more light than heat..



Bob T Wrote:

Why don’t you quote Clearwaters on Translations? In his 1974 message at one of Central’s “workshops” he stated he could only recommend two translations. They were the KJV and the NASB. I was there. The NKJV was not yet in existence. He had a Masters in Greek literature from the University of Chicago. He was no KJVO.

He being dead yet speaketh again.

If we could take all who are KJVO, and all Pastors who put DR. in front of their name, which refers to an honorary degree from some third rate school or some post office box, and persuade them to stop calling themselves Fundamentalists, we may have few Fundamentalists left. Then we could get on with a clear definition that has some historical meaning.

Why don’t you quote Clearwaters on Translations? In his 1974 message at one of Central’s “workshops” he stated he could only recommend two translations. They were the KJV and the NASB. I was there. The NKJV was not yet in existence. He had a Masters in Greek literature from the University of Chicago. He was no KJVO.

Monte answers: First of all, no one ever claimed Clearwaters was KJVO. It is true, however, that he only preached from the KJV. Thousands of recorded sermons demonstrate this. He occasionally referred to the ASV 1901, but did not preach from it. It is a little off the topic to argue about something that no one is claiming.

Your second paragraph is simply mean-spirited. In fact, I’m surprised the moderators have not viewed it as an attack. It could certainly be taken that way. Honorary doctorates are just that—honorary. Whether the institution is large or small, known or unknown, honary doctorates simply honor their recipient for his accomplishments outside the classroom. Since accomplishments outside the classroom are more important than those within, it may be that honorary doctorates are more significant. They indicate someone actually accomplished something away from academia’s halls. By the way, Dr. Clearwaters had several honorary doctorates.

As to a “clear definition” of fundamentalism, I didn’t know we were still uncertain about this. I am a historic fundamentalist and I like George Dollar’s definition—embracing militant exposition of truth and exposure of error. Those who are still looking for a definition have probably spent too much time in the classroom.

My advice: Preach Christ, win souls, love the brethren, expose error, and have a great time. (We’re fixing to have a GREAT Sunday!)

For the record, I concur with Joe’s endorsement of polka music. I have personally written a polka—“The Bus Ministry Polka” and I play it on the church organ almost every Sunday to encourage the workers!

Just clinging to my guns and religion... www.faithbaptistavon.com

[Pastor Marc Monte] As to a “clear definition” of fundamentalism, I didn’t know we were still uncertain about this. I am a historic fundamentalist and I like George Dollar’s definition—embracing militant exposition of truth and exposure of error. Those who are still looking for a definition have probably spent too much time in the classroom.
I doubt anyone is really uncertain about definitions. Rather, many of us are just dissatisified with those who take on a “label” that which they do not really represent. IOW, some who call themselves “fundamentalists” have deviated from the “historical” definition of the word and should no longer be considered “fundamentalists.”

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

[Pastor Marc Monte] My advice: Preach Christ, win souls, love the brethren, expose error, and have a great time.
I agree, but would alter it slightly to read:

Preach Christ, Make disciples, Love the Brethren, Expose error.

Making disciples per Matthew 28:18-20 is vastly different than wining souls. Back in the days when I was a champion soul winner, my visitation partner and I went out one evening, and in the space of 2 hours won 7 souls. To the best of my knowledge none of the 7 were made disciples! I want no part of that form of evangelism again.
and have a great time
I heard a preacher say that he had the most fun when he preached. That is not a word I would choose to describe preaching. Since God uses preaching (1 Cor. 1:21) as the means of salvation, I would hope that we would treat the privilege of preaching more seriously than that.

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be a good soldier and loyal to your alma mater above all else and you will receive an honorary doctorate. Even John Rice’s horse received one back in the day—he never spoke a negative word!

My post regarding honorary degrees is to call attention to a very real mentality that is prevalent among some groups who call themselves Fundamentalists.

An honorary doctorate is a legitimate conferred honor from an institution of higher learning (offering Masters or above) when that institution is accepted as academically formidable and is either accredited by a legitimate accrediting agency, or if not accredited, has had its degrees and courses accepted by accredited schools. There are several Fundamentalist schools which fall into that category. It is not in accordance with normal academic decorum for schools that do not offer graduate degrees, or whose course work is of inferior academic quality, or is a degree mill, give out honorary doctorates. Those who wish a ministry of integrity should not accept such substandard degrees.

Among the KJVO Pastors, but only them, there are many (yes many) who put DR. in front of their names yet themselves have never done any graduate level work. Some have no earned degrees. Many appear to have degrees from schools who’s academic requirements are very substandard. Whenever an institution is formed to offer academic courses, and offer degrees, it is doing so within a tradition that is within the realm of general society. We must play by their rules or bring disrepute upon our Christian profession of faith. It is a fraud upon our society for men to hold themselves out as Doctor when they have not attained the level of Doctor in mastering a discipline. Does this not show a basic lack of integrity? Is this not simply a worldly and prideful exercise in seeking to have authority that is not deserved? If one is in ministry with no training, but over time has proven ministerial competency in the word and ministry, then their earned reputation will be recognized for what it is. If one has a Bachelors level education from a Bible College then let them rest on that and gain approval of knowledge and competency above that by personal study through practice of ministry. But the holding out of doctorates from small or substandard institutions is a fraud upon the public and a shame upon the Christian ministry.

Actually it may be in the best interest of ministry, and of proper church ministry, to use no degree designations before a name. Perhaps we should even avoid titles such as Reverend or Pastor. We do not address others in a congregation as Plumber Joe or Mechanic Harry. If one has an earned doctorate or even e legitimate honorary degree the designation should be reserved for use in an academic setting.

I do not believe this is off topic as it is areal problem in Fundamentalism that reveals a false pride and hypocrisy that few will talk about. All such desires and attitudes were condemned by our Lord (Matt. 23:5-12). My perception is that this is actually much more prevalent among Fundamentalists than any we may call New Evangelical.

I will agree with Dr. Bauder (holds an academic position and earned degree) that there is much wrong within the Fundamentalist label. We often practice unrighteous judgment in that we are very willing to judge others regarding doctrine and practice but will not admit to hypocrisy and a lack of integrity that lies within our midst.

What legitimacy is there in pronouncing as wrong another’s associations or practices (such as movie attendance) while holding ourselves out in ministry as a DR. with an essentially phony degree. In this geographic area the “Pastor” of a large KJVO Baptist ministry condemns all sorts of things while holding himself out as Dr. He has a BA from a substandard now defunct Bible College, a Masters from a correspondence school that has been condemned by the state in which it is in as a degree mill, and an honorary doctorate from a small KJVO Bible College. The whole ministry is built upon fraud and a cultic mentality. Yet they are held out as a great “Fundamentalist” ministry example. Can we not stop and see our own hypocrisy?

My disagreement with Dr. Bauder is on the inclusion of John Piper and John MacArthur as conservative evangelicals worthy of some acceptance. There are doctrinal problems and ministry entanglement problems with both. We can read what they write and gain from some of it. We can learn from many conservative evangelicals. We do not need to issue disclaimers whenever we quote them. We can love them and fellowship with them depending on who and circumstance. But we need not be entangled with them in ministry or accept all they say without warning. FWIW, I then both agree and disagree with Dr. Bauder’s article.

[Bob T.] We do not need to issue disclaimers whenever we quote them.
My own disclaimer - I do not usually agree with Bob T.
[Bob T.] Actually it may be in the best interest of ministry, and of proper church ministry, to use no degree designations before a name. Perhaps we should even avoid titles such as Reverend or Pastor.
BUT, in this instance I am in complete agreement.

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I’ve just looked over the back and forth of 150 posts.

Well……it’s obvious we all care about this topic to one degree or another. I think that’s actually a good sign. I fall on the side that there is God-honoring “room” for “a certain type of CE” and “a certain type of fundamentalists” to have some level of koinonia. No matter what side you fall on, I think the two things we all have in common is this:

1) We all desire to have God honoring and mutual edifying relationships within the body of Christ.

2) We desire to be as separate as God would have us to be without being sinfully “non-present” within both the world as light/salt and within the body for edification.

The only issue we really disagree as to the extent of both our “unity” and our “non-negotable absolutles.” May God grant us the insght into His Word to know how much variants we can answer this question and still have a God-honoring relationship with one another.

For myself, I’m most happy to share my Vernor’s with any of you around a beautiful camp-fire while listening to the wonderful tunes of Joe’s Polka and Bob’s Western! As we say here in the desert, “watch out for that tumble weed!”

Shalom and Straght Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;