One Mom’s Look at Tedd Tripp’s Book: Shepherding a Child’s Heart

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(Today and Thursday, we’ll be posting two perspectives on Christian parenting. Anne Sokol’s focuses on Tedd Tripp’s popular book on parenting. In tomorrow’s article, Aaron Blumer writes on “The Simplicity of Biblical Parenting.”)

For brevity, I focus here on my disagreements with Shepherding a Child’s Heart—its application of some Scriptures and its overall emphasis. My main concerns are these:

  1. The book’s focus on requiring obedience as the primary component of the parent/child relationship and emphasis on parental authority as the right to require obedience.
  2. Tripp’s teaching that spanking is the means the parent must use in order to bring a child back into “the circle of blessing.”
  3. Tripp’s interpretation that the “rod” in Proverbs equals spanking, that spanking is even for young children, that spanking is the God-ordained means of discipline (which parents must obey) and that use of the rod saves a child’s soul from death.
  4. His portrayal of any other style or method of parenting in a derogatory manner and training parents’ consciences that failure to discipline as his book teaches is disobedience to God.

These points are the heart of Tripp’s teaching, and while his book contains many truths, it does not communicate the full truth of gospel-oriented parenting, as he claims it does.

1. Is obedience the primary component of the parent-child relationship, and is it right for parents to mainly exercise their authority as the right to require obedience?

For several reasons, I see the obedience emphasis as a frustrating, and even false, paradigm for the parent/child relationship. The truth of the gospel is that my child will never obey me or God perfectly while on the earth. I, an adult, will never obey God perfectly on this earth. The essence of the gospel is that perfect obedience to God’s standards is only achieved by Christ—and in Him, we are free from this exacting burden.

So emphasizing obedience as the primary component of the family relationship, as Tripp does, distorts the gospel and puts our focus on ourselves and our sinfulness—not only because we will always fail, but also because our works are not praiseworthy; they are only acceptable insomuch as they are the Spirit’s work. The gospel focuses us on Christ’s obedience and His complete sufficiency for us. And the deeper we understand and accept that truth, the more we are transformed into His image (i.e., the more we obey). Obedience is the fruit, not the object. Obedience is our joyful freedom, not our punishable law.

Martin Luther wrote:

Therefore the first care of every Christian ought to be to lay aside all reliance on works, and strengthen his faith alone more and more, and by it grow in the knowledge, not of works, but of Christ Jesus, who has suffered and risen again for him, as Peter teaches (1 Peter v.) when he makes no other work to be a Christian one….

Then comes in that other part of Scripture, the promises of God, which declare the glory of God, and say, “If you wish to fulfil [sic] the law, and, as the law requires, not to covet, lo! believe in Christ, in whom are promised to you grace, justification, peace, and liberty.” All these things you shall have, if you believe, and shall be without them if you do not believe. For what is impossible for you by all the works of the law, which are many and yet useless, you shall fulfil [sic] in an easy and summary way through faith, because God the Father has made everything to depend on faith….

Now, since these promises of God are words of holiness, truth, righteousness, liberty, and peace, and are full of universal goodness, the soul, which cleaves to them with a firm faith, is so united to them, nay, thoroughly absorbed by them, that it not only partakes in, but is penetrated and saturated by, all their virtues.1

A better rubric for parenting is developing a loving relationship (which does entail teaching obedience) which prayerfully prepares a child’s heart so that it is favorable to receive the good seed of the gospel. Again, teaching obedience is one part of this. Tripp’s emphasis is wrong and his methods are limited—he claims that communication and the rod are the only “biblical” methods of discipline.

Second, on the subject of authority as the right to require obedience, Tripp writes:

Authority best describes the parent’s relationship to the child. (p. xix)

When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you, he is disobeying…. Rebellion can be something as simple as an infant struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit in your lap. (p. 154)

Yes, loving parenting authority does require obedience, but the extent to which Tripp emphasizes this is mistaken. Though he mentions other aspects of servanthood in authority, his main thrust is authority as requiring obedience, and he goes to great lengths to teach parents exactly how to exercise authority in this manner. Tripp’s book makes this the main factor in the parent/child relationship in a manner that is not consistent with Scripture.

For example, God’s relationship with us as His children is characterized by many things other than His right to demand obedience from us. He emphasizes lovingkindness, rejoicing, longsuffering, compassion, and sacrifice. He meets our true needs, helps us to will and to do His good pleasure, has compassion on us, blesses us—and much more. Tripp gives little attention to how these apply to parenting.

We want to model the entire nature of God—not mainly God’s exercise of authority over us to command obedience. Communicating to my child that God can be trusted because He always is acting in wisdom, righteousness and truth toward us is the more godly path to obedience.

Again, Martin Luther understands:

This also is an office of faith: that it honours with the utmost veneration and the highest reputation Him in whom it believes, inasmuch as it holds Him to be truthful and worthy of belief…. What higher credit can we attribute to any one than truth and righteousness, and absolute goodness?

Thus the soul, in firmly believing the promises of God, holds Him to be true and righteous…. In doing this the soul shows itself prepared to do His whole will; in doing this it hallows His name, and gives itself up to be dealt with as it may please God. For it cleaves to His promises, and never doubts that He is true, just, and wise, and will do, dispose, and provide for all things in the best way. Is not such a soul, in this its faith, most obedient to God in all things?

In His dealings with us as His children, God does nothing like reaching down and spanking us each time we disobey. Sin has natural consequences, but God bears them with us, redeems them, and works in the secret places of our hearts transforming our beliefs and understanding about Him. Greater obedience results. His graciousness is not permissive, but it is very patient—training yet not demanding.

2. Does spanking bring a child back into the “circle of blessing”?

Shepherding a Child’s Heart connects spanking with blessing:

The rod returns the child to the place of blessing…. The rod of correction returns him to the place of submission to parents in which God has promised blessing. (p. 115)

The disobedient child has moved outside the place of covenant blessing. The parent must quickly restore the child to the proper relationship with God and the parent. As the child returns to the circle of blessing, things go well for him. He enjoys long life. (p. 135-136)

The Bible does not support Tripp’s teaching that spanking brings a child back into the “circle of blessing.” Spanking is not endued by God with such spiritual power, nor, in fact, is a parent endued with the power to restore the child. Biblically, confession and repentance restore our fellowship with God and others. Let’s cling to this promise: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (NASB, 1 John 1:9). Tripp’s made-up “circle of blessing” teaching goes beyond what God says.

Also, the command to obey was given to the child. Just as husbands are not told to make their wives submit and wives are not told to make their husbands love them, parents are not told to make their children obey.

I taught my daughters to obey—starting when they were small—because I wanted their hearts to be sensitive and trained in the things of God. But teaching obedience is only one facet of my parenting.

3. Has Tedd Tripp correctly interpreted the “rod” passages?

Tripp teaches that the “rod” in Proverbs equals spanking, that spanking is even for young children, that spanking is the God-ordained means of discipline (which parents must obey) and that use of the rod saves a child’s soul from death.

God has commanded the use of the rod in discipline and correction of children. It is not the only thing you do, but it must be used. He has told you that there are needs within your children that require use of the rod. If you are going to rescue your children from death, if you are going to root out the folly that is bound up in their hearts, if you are going to impart wisdom, you must use the rod. (p. SACH, 108)

The rod … is the parent, as God’s representative, undertaking on God’s behalf what God has called him to do. He is not on his own errand, but fulfilling God’s. (p. SACH, 109)

Tripp’s use of Proverbs 23:14 (NIV: “Punish him [a child] with the rod and save his soul from death”) is faulty. Only the grace of God saves us from death and from our sinfulness. It is unbiblical to assert that spanking is God’s “means of grace” for saving children in any way. We diligently teach our children to obey, but spanking them is not salvific in nature. In fact, it is usually unnecessary. There are many godly ways we can teach our children to obey: by our example, by physically helping them fulfill our instructions, by meeting their internal and external needs, by teaching that choices have consequences, etc. God does these things for us as His children.2

The book refers several times to this conversation:

Father: “I must spank you. If I don’t, then I would be disobeying God.” (p. 31)

And again, “Dear, you know what Mommy said and you did not obey Mommy. And now I’ll have to spank you.” (p. 103)

In reference to the mother’s actions, Tripp explains that “the issues of correction transcend the present. All earthly punishment presupposes the great day when destinies are eternally fixed” (p. 103).

The conversation Tripp describes suggests parents who are controlled by a parenting formula rather than by the Holy Spirit: “I must spank you.” And linking earthly punishment to the day of judgment is a distortion of God’s relationship to us. As His child, my eternal destiny was decided already, because He punished His Son, not me.

As His children, He does not consistently punish us when we sin. He trains and disciplines us consistently but He is not obligated to punish us. By teaching parents that they are required to spank, Tripp teaches children (and their parents) that—contrary to the gospel—God does punish us consistently for our sins. Because Christ was punished for us, God is free to use whatever methods of discipline He wishes in order to train us and bring us closer to Himself.

Luther’s words are helpful once again:

When I say, such a Person [Christ], by the wedding-ring of faith, takes a share in the sins, death, and hell of His wife, nay, makes them His own, and deals with them no otherwise than as if they were His, and as if He Himself had sinned…. Thus the believing soul, by the pledge of its faith in Christ, becomes free from all sin, fearless of death, safe from hell, and endowed with the eternal righteousness, life, and salvation of its Husband Christ.

Tripp errs gravely in asserting that spanking is God-ordained, that God’s methods of discipline are limited to communication and spanking, and that parents must spank or they are sinning.

The book also lacks adequate attention to age differences and stages of development—a great aid in child-rearing. On this point, Sally Clarkson writes:

The unfortunate thing is that many parents, in the name of faithful discipline, do not understand the differences between babies or toddlers or young children or even teens with all of their hormones, and they exhibit anger and harshness toward their children, act in a demeaning way, while neglecting the cues of the child at each stage. These parents have no perspective for the children themselves–they use a rule and formula no matter what–and often wonder why their children do not respond to them.3

4. Is Tripp correct that any other methods of parenting are ineffective and disobedient?

Finally, Tripp consistently describes other methods or styles of parenting or discipline as ineffective and undesirable. This is a weakness in his argument because other godly methods of biblical training do exist and have been used effectively for many years.

For example, a daughter of Puritan parents, Mary Fish (1736-1818) writes: “They were very watchful over us in all our ways, and they had such a happy mode of governing that they would even govern us with an eye, and they never used severity with us at all.”4

These summarize several of the major errors in teaching and emphases that I have found in Shepherding a Child’s Heart. The book includes several good teachings, but the overarching errors concern me to the point that I do not recommend the book to parents. Those considering promoting this book and its teachings seriously should give these topics a lot of thought.

Notes

1 All Luther excerpts here are from Concerning Christian Liberty, Part 2.

2 According to Clay Clarkson, Heartfelt Discipline, Prov. 23:14 is probably referring to the use of an actual rod on the back of a young man (p. 56).

3 http://www.itakejoy.com/first-time-obedience-really/

4 Joy Day Buel and Richard J. Buel, Jr. The Way of Duty: A Woman and Her Family in Revolutionary America, p. 7

Discussion

[Rachel L.] It seems that spanking is viewed as a Fundamental.
Not really.

schaitel,

1. Do you believe you have a better way to discipline than what God commanded?

2. Do you believe it is sin to not do what God commanded?

Like I said before, at some point people will have to stop trying to be creative to get around obedience. Regardless of what any man says (I note several women on here favorably quote Clarkson), I will simply trust that God knows me and my children better than I do.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

now that i’ve gotten a few hrs sleep … .

I wish Ed Vasichek would post some insights into the Jewish perspective of this topic in Proverbs.

I wish people would discuss what I wrote in the article and not just talk about spanking, although it is a major issue in how fundy parents are trained to parent and trained to see God, so it is definitely worthy of discussion.

I wish James K would realized that I started out my parenting with spanking and am very thankful that the Lord has brought me to the place that I no longer need or want to use that tactic. I also wish he could be a little more open-minded instead of assuming he knows God’s mind on spanking.

there’s prob’ly more I’m wishing for, but a look at Heb 12 might be next.

[Aaron Blumer] Anne, read most of Clarkson’s case on “young man” several days ago. There are some serious problems there.

Anyway, I need to correct what I posted earlier: in NKJV, na’ar is translated child 39 times, young man 36 times… the majority is servant, at 55.

But “child” is definitely not uncommon.

1Sam 1.22 for example.
i’m listening, and i’m assuming this means you’ve read his book?

I’m not sure if you read this post, but i think these verses are insightful in the matter, too, you know, interpreting scripture by scripture:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. “And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ “Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.
[Aaron Blumer] Greg, about Heb 12… yes, there is a clear analogy there between human fathering and God’s fathering. Interestingly, it’s one that commends tough discipline.
about Heb 12, i dont think one can say it’s talking about punishing disobedience, like we want to use it in childrearing. it’s talking about suffering and persecution as God’s discipline for us, and Christ is our example of how to endure that.

I think we need to put it in perspective.

Those who believe spanking is commanded by Scripture are certainly entitled to their convictions.

Those who believe spanking is not required are entitled to theirs.

In both cases, the view is worthy of respect if it’s been arrived at by diligent study of the Scriptures with a commitment to follow its instructions as best we can understand them.

Some things that keep this from being a completely clear issue:

- Hebrew Proverbs are poetic and poetry involves symbolism

- Proverbs are extremely compressed expressions of principle. There are often unstated conditions and exceptions, etc.

But…

- Historically, believers have understood the rod to at least include spanking when necessary. I doubt anyone questioned this before Enlightenment thinking came on the scene and completely new views of the nature of children were popularized by guys like Rousseau. I doubt anybody questioned it much in the U.S. until the 60’s… when a whole lot of other things got questioned for the first time, not coincidentally.

- I seriously doubt there’s ever been widespread agreement about exactly when to use the switch and when not to.

If it matters, my wife and I believe in spanking—as our parents did before us and theirs before them and theirs before them. (Not able to verify beyond that). But we’ve also found it to be rarely necessary—and found that one child is far more responsive to that than the other. The principle is that correction is necessary and parents need to not be squeamish about using pain of one sort or another when a child needs it. There is so much we only learn through pain.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

I wish James K would realized that I started out my parenting with spanking and am very thankful that the Lord has brought me to the place that I no longer need or want to use that tactic. I also wish he could be a little more open-minded instead of assuming he knows God’s mind on spanking.
1. God is blamed for many things.

2. I only need to be as open minded as the scriptures tell me to be. In fact, I am not to be conformed to this world but transformed by the renewing of my mind. That is done by conforming my mind to the scriptures, not creative substitutes because I don’t believe God was clear enough.

How do you seriously even try to approach this topic without a serious study of Heb 12?

Isn’t that like trying to comment on sovereignty without examining Rom 9, or eschatology without Rev 20, or …?

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

About Clarkson’s book: I have only read a portion of it. He lost credibility with me quite quickly.

About Hebrews. It’s not about persecution. It’s about fatherly discipline. Perhaps through the vehicle of persecution (I’d have to explore that possibility further) but the discipline angle is clear.

I post it in full here because it speaks very well for itself.

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,

And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him

[Aaron Blumer] About Clarkson’s book: I have only read a portion of it. He lost credibility with me quite quickly.
you were holding the book in your hands? what portion were you reading? I’m curious …

[Aaron Blumer] I think we need to put it in perspective.

Those who believe spanking is commanded by Scripture are certainly entitled to their convictions.
I think, though, that most of us never, ever give this issue a second thought, that maybe we are misusing scripture to guide our parenting relationship. so I would say, that I think most fundamentalists need to come to a better grip of the options and issues in this debate.
[Aaron Blumer] Those who believe spanking is not required are entitled to theirs.

In both cases, the view is worthy of respect if it’s been arrived at by diligent study of the Scriptures with a commitment to follow its instructions as best we can understand them.
But the problem is that the most popular and promoted parenting books in our circles command, with God’s authority, that parents must spank. Parents are *never* (that i know of) given this option (of not spanking) in the church.
[Aaron Blumer] Some things that keep this from being a completely clear issue:

- Hebrew Proverbs are poetic and poetry involves symbolism

- Proverbs are extremely compressed expressions of principle. There are often unstated conditions and exceptions, etc.

But…

- Historically, believers have understood the rod to at least include spanking when necessary. I doubt anyone questioned this before Enlightenment thinking came on the scene and completely new views of the nature of children were popularized by guys like Rousseau. I doubt anybody questioned it much in the U.S. until the 60’s… when a whole lot of other things got questioned for the first time, not coincidentally.
I think to understand it, you have to go back to Jewish culture, not another culture.

My wife and I have successfully raised three children to adulthood. They are all well adjusted, godly, productive members of their church and serving God as I write this. (Though I would hardly make experience the final authority, I do think having successfully run the gauntlet of child rearing three times does allow me to address the issue of spanking.)

IMHO

1. Raising a child is like making a complex recipe, it requires many ingredients. Spanking is but one ingredient of the recipe. We must also have many cups full of love, and fun, and games, and friends, and toys and play time. But if spanking isn’t in there, the recipe won’t turn out the same.

2. We found spanking works best with young children in open rebellion. Though I appreciate Anne’s emphasis on reasoning, and coming along side her child, and emphasizing the amazing grace of the gospel, the reality is, you can’t reason with a 2 year old whose heart is full of rebellion. Once the child is old enough to reason with, by all means you had better know how to teach and train and impart biblical truth. But that job will be much easier if you’ve dealt with the rebellion that is born in every human heart at an early age. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, the rod of correction will drive it far from them. Deal with rebellion at an early age and all phases of parenting will be much easier. Neglect it and all phases will be harder. If done will diligence and consistency (see below) you should be spanking very little by the age of 5.

3. The goal of parenting is to produce godly adults who have self-control, disciple, and the ability to be submissive to the authority of God. Spanking is part of that character training. It will help the child overcome their rebellious sin nature by helping them be motivated to do so. It isn’t to bully them, or take out your frustration on them.

4. Disciplined children require disciplined parents. It is much easier to just holler louder and louder and louder. It is very difficult to speak softly, require quick cheerful obedience, and administer calm punishment when it isn’t forthcoming. Remember, while you’re trying to train them, they are trying to train you. If the typical spanking session at your home comes when you are red in the face, and at your wits end, you need to stop spanking. Take a deep breath. Look in the mirror, ask, “Who is the adult here?” once you have a grip on that (it’s you by the way), then calmly go to your child, tell them you’ve been acting badly as a parent by not modeling loving patience, and ask their forgiveness. Then next time they display open rebellion speak to them calmly, “Did you understand what I said?” “Do you understand if you disobey that will be sinning?” (Or whatever words are age appropriate). If they are still willfully rebellious then calmly spank them. Don’t yell, scream, holler, or act like a 2 year old yourself.

5. Always make sure you test your spanking implement on yourself first. Always. Very benign looking items can hurt a lot more then you may suspect. The goal is to correct the child, not harm the child. There should be no bruises or welts but it should hurt (and not just their pride). A wimpy spanking will very likely breed contempt, rather then obedience.

I guess that is my case in point about churches teaching options …

It’s … what is the word? … maybe strange? the way we are so dependent on spanking to produce godly children. I think there is something deeply wrong in this teaching.
But if spanking isn’t in there, the recipe won’t turn out the same.
Has God endued spanking with some spiritual power? people say yes. I’m thinking, no. it’s not in Bible.

Anne, your case in point has not dealt seriously with Heb 12, an explicit NT text that reinforces exactly what the OT meaning was.

You have instead opted for a negotiation tactic (your word) when it comes to raising children.

God is serious about sin. You cannot accurately portray God’s view of sin/punishment if you fail to obey what the scripture says.

The problem isn’t that it isn’t in the Bible. It is. Your problem is that in your experience, you didn’t see the immediate results. You have substituted faith in truth for pragmatism.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Hebrews 12:11

No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful.

Yes, an examination of Heb 12 would put this entire thread back in line with scripture.

To those with the courage to obey God, I salute you.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Logically if you’re going to say that this passage is only about persecution, then you’re going to have to deal with the clear connection between how the Lord deals with His children and how fathers are supposed to deal with their children. Either you’d have to deny the connection or you’d have to say that fathers are supposed to “persecute” their children. Obviously that doesn’t make sense.

To say that Hebrews 12 is about “persecution” is side-stepping the issue. It’s about “discipline,” specifically “chastening” discipline that is “painful.” Persecution may be one form of that chastening discipline, but certainly not the only form. Otherwise you’d have to say that anyone who is not being persecuted is not being disciplined by the Lord.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

Bob Bixby said something in his article that resonated with me about the differences in relationships parents have with their younger children and their older children. Frankly, I think Anne is brave to make the points she has and spark this very useful discussion.

Not to make this confession time, but I have a poorer relationship with my oldest (14-1/2 year old whom I know I spanked too much and many times did so punitively [to satisfy my own anger] ) than I do with my youngest (a 9 year old whom I spank/ed much less and, when I do so, spank much “better”).

The thing is, one of the major preventatives that made this difference was reading Tripp’s book when my 9yo was very young. Tripp gave me lots of other tools without which, frankly, spanking may be useless.

But I don’t think we can throw spanking out because the bathwater seems just so dirty. I think Heb 12 does indeed bolster the case for judicious use of spanking. I think an appeal to the context of Jewish society via Deut. 21 fails to overturn the case for spanking children, then or now. As for the OT, if you didn’t want your young man stoned and spanking/caning was a preventative for that, when would that discipline be administered? Boys became young men younger in OT times than they do today.

Furthermore, there are similar potential societal outcomes today that could be considered the contextual correlatives (prison, death by reckless behavior, etc) to the Deut. 21 situation.

And my recollection is that physical discipline is covered in only one of 13 or 14 chapters in Tripp’s book. Again, I can’t check because my copy is out on loan. The “rubric” I came away from it with was definitely not one of a rigid “obey or suffer” structure.

Not to say someone else couldn’t read it that way. And warnings may be helpful, even essential, for some.

but if you’re going to follow that this verse is supporting discipline of children in the way you mean, then you need to say, look, son, God wrote this passage to you saying that even if I am being sinful in my discipline of you now, He is still using it for your good.

i think it comes from reading that Christ is our example how to endure the hostility of sinners. they hadn’t endured the sin of sinners against them to the point of shedding blood—like the Pakistani Christians have today, for example. “therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.” Hebrews 12:12-13

I think you have to consider the cultural you are in, too. if you are reading those verses as instructions for parents to punish, and you are in culture that almost never punishes children, and you punish your child three times as they grow up, you can read those verses and have fulfilled them.

About the word punishment, I think there are times I do “punish” my children (usually I call it losing a blessing), and they cry and so on. I try to keep negative discipline, like punishment) to a minimum, but I dont’ think it’s at all wrong to do. There are other times Vitaliy puts them to sleep (i’m mean snoring in the bed sleep :D ) for certain behavior—maybe that is also punishment b/c they dislike it.

The text is making a point how God disciplines His children—maybe via persecution, maybe not, that really isn’t relevant. The reason it isn’t relevant:

- The points being made there are being illustrated by assertions about parenting

- Therefore, whatever the points are, they are not valid unless the underlying assertions about parenting are true

So we have some solid info about parenting either way.

In any case, is anyone really going to deny that God disciplines His children through suffering? Doing that would put one up against centuries of Christian belief and teaching across all traditions.

About Clarkson, I was reading an electronic copy. I’ll get some quotes and page numbers.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

David, I’m glad you commented on that. Bixby is right—phases that my first went through seemed a battleground b/c I didn’t know it was self-passing phase. my second, i hardly even notice that stuff any more.

I’m glad tripp helped you. I really am, and that you latched on to the right things in that book. Other people latch on to the wrong things, like this exact instruction: “When does a child need a spanking? When you have given a directive that he has heard and is within his capacity to understand and he has not obeyed without challenge, without excuse or without delay, he needs a spanking. If you fail to spank, you fail to take God’s Word seriously. You are saying you do not believe what the Bible teaches about the import of these issues… . If obedience is to be absolutely mandatory for him, you cannot tolerate disobedience” (149).

That is a crazy, crazy statement to put into print. That is a foundation for adversarial parenting if that’s what a parent latches on to. There are so many stages of development, and making a blanket instruction like that—especially in the section for “infancy and childhood” is very dangerous.

Tripp takes any sign of struggle or disobedience as rebellion, and that is not biblical. Biblical rebellion is a different phenomenon than a two yr old going through a negative phase or the repetitive undesirable behavior of a small child, for example.

One thing that saved my relationship with my first when she was two is that i remember this scrap of information that 2 is when the child is going through his first major separation of identity phase, that is why all the negativity. Understanding that this natural phase was mainly not a rebellious child defying my authority but a kid in transition helped me have a lot more wisdom in dealing with obedience training.

Then, about repetitive behaviors example, my friend posted this comment recently:
And really… parents often assign “sin” and “defiance” to behaviours that are simply part of God’s design for how a child grows and develops. I mean, really — a child needs to have persistence to LEARN just about anything. Connect the synapses. So what does the child do? Repeats things. Again and again and again. He does it while playing. He does it with his body movement. And he does it in actions that mommy says “no” to — but he is learning! That persistence is NEEDED and God’s design. Just because I redirect and say no one times, doesn’t mean that the next ten times are “defiance” and “rebellion” — most of the time, really — they are LEARNING. (And Mommy needs to be patient and consistent in helping the little one learn “no” about that action, too!)
Sally Clarkson wrote: “When we discipline our children, we must learn to look at their hearts. Is their heart rebellious? Are they being willful? Am I expecting too much for them–their age, their level of over-stimulation, the circumstances, their maturity level, their abilities? A child should not be punished for being exhausted, immature, a boy, or for making a mistake. I make mistakes all the time, again and again. And yet scripture teaches in the new testament and the old that maturity is as a result of training, time, growth, heart and will… . “

I think those types of insights really help a parent develop wisdom about handling their children. I am just nervous about people applying some of the direct statements Tripp wrote. Confession, after I read Tripp, i have to detox for a day or two while I’m a total bossy, demanding crab with my kids. It just effects me that way, all his authority stuff with so little compassion, mercy, or understanding. It is already hard enough for me to have compassion and understanding for my kids—it’s a learned thing really.

Oh, also, I heartheartheart Karen Campbell’s thoughtful applications of the “one another” passages to our relationships with our children. Sometimes, sadly, I have been convicted that I was treating my kids worse that I would ever treat an unbeliever or fellow church member—such strictness and lack of understanding or pity. why do we excuse or even train ourselves in such strictness to our own children when they are so young and open to us … it’s really sad. I have regrets. I’m hope they dont remember.

Clarkson does have some good things to say. The book does have some value. But his theology on the nature of children is incorrect in some serious ways and he systematically reduces the relevance of Proverbs to something like Solomon’s Suggestions for Teens.

Some examples of what my impression derives from:

p.51 “Physical discipline of children is not prohibited. God nowhere says, ‘Thou shalt not spank.’ However, it’s clear that neither is it commanded or even suggested in Scripture.”

p. 55 “Scripture refers to the ‘little ones’ and young children as innocent and under the protection of adults, in part because they don’t yet know right from wrong (in the sense of being culpable for that knowledge.)”

p. 56 On Prov. 22:15 “… although it may be true that young child’s heart seems full of foolishness, that is not the point of Proverbs 22:15, which has a “young man” in view. Foolishness in Proverbs is not the same as the natural immaturity of a young child, a condition that is not condemned by Scripture.”

p. 56 “Should we then use the rod on rebellious sons today? No, I think not. The cultural context of those words is separate from our day by three thousand years. We are no longer bound to the Old Testament Law (for instance, we don’t stone rebellious sons). We are instead guided by the liberty and grace of the New Covenant…”


For those interested in studying the relevance of the Proverbs in general, I recommend Bruce Waltke’s introduction to Proverbs in New International Commentary on the Old Testament, Vol.1… and peruse several other introductions to the Proverbs. Clarkson’s reductionism is exceptional.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Anne… you keep declaring things to be unbiblical (that actually have biblical support), then asserting alternative views that are nowhere in the Bible.

Tripp takes any sign of struggle or disobedience as rebellion, and that is not biblical. Biblical rebellion is a different phenomenon than a two yr old going through a negative phase or the repetitive undesirable behavior of a small child, for example.


Where is a “negative phase” in the Bible? Research the origin of the concept and you might be surprised about where these ideas came from.

(For anybody who hasn’t noticed yet, take a peak at today’s post:

http://sharperiron.org/article/simplicity-of-biblical-parenting)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] So we have some solid info about parenting either way.

In any case, is anyone really going to deny that God disciplines His children through suffering? Doing that would put one up against centuries of Christian belief and teaching across all traditions.
Parents discpline their children, God disciplines us because he loves us. it’s painful for the moment, then peaceful.

Is it talking about spanking? is it talking about endurance training? And it leads to us sharing his holiness.
[Aaron Blumer] About Clarkson, I was reading an electronic copy. I’ll get some quotes and page numbers.
if you can cut and paste, id like to read it.

Posted while you were writing, I think. See above.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] Anne… you keep declaring things to be unbiblical (that actually have biblical support), then asserting alternative views that are nowhere in the Bible.

Tripp takes any sign of struggle or disobedience as rebellion, and that is not biblical. Biblical rebellion is a different phenomenon than a two yr old going through a negative phase or the repetitive undesirable behavior of a small child, for example.


Where is a “negative phase” in the Bible? Research the origin of the concept and you might be surprised about where these ideas came from.

(For anybody who hasn’t noticed yet, take a peak at today’s post:

http://sharperiron.org/article/simplicity-of-biblical-parenting)
Paul, for example, writes, “When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.” (1 Corinthians 13:11-12). The state of being a child or childish is not condemned nor accounted as sinful.

examples of biblical rebellion:

1. The nation of Israel: Deuteronomy 9:7 “Remember, do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness; from the day that you left the land of Egypt until you arrived at this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.”

2. the wicked: Psalm 5:9-10 There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself; Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue. Hold them guilty, O God; By their own devices let them fall! In the multitude of their transgressions thrust them out, For they are rebellious against Thee.

3. false teachers: Titus 1:10-11 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain.

4. unbelievers: 1 Timothy 1:9-10 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.



I was raised in (what I now know to be) an abusive home. I was spanked for every transgression no matter how slight from very very young through the age of 16 when I entered foster care. I was told “I spank because I love you, and want you to learn how to be a good girl” “Spare the rod spoil the child” “I spank you because God tells me I have to, not because I enjoy it”

So when I had my first child…the slapping of hands and bottoms began very young…and continued to age three when he came to me and said “Momma, please don’t hit me anymore it hurts my heart” I fully believe that God gave him the words, he was not that articulate at 3yrs old.

Praise God that he had just blessed me with a child with special needs…and I was forced to learn how to parent with grace (without spanking) because my 2nd born child would not have (and still would not) been able to connect the dots between unwanted behavior and a swat on the butt.

I no longer believe that spanking is necessary for raising successful/Godly children. My oldest will be 9 (boy) this weekend and has not been spanked in years, my 6 1/2 yr old (boy) has never been spanked neither has my 4yr old (girl) or my 1yr old(girl). They are wonderful, funny, cheerful, kind, loving…and yes OBEDIENT children.

I’ve never been turned over God’s knee and spanked. Jesus never spanked anyone in the Bible. Are there unpleasant consequences to poor choices? Yes! Absolutely! I let my kids experience the fallout from their poor choices…I don’t hit them.

Jesus never spanked anyone in the Bible.
Jesus never had any children. He could not, therefore, set an example for us in this area.

[C. D. Cauthorne Jr.]
Jesus never spanked anyone in the Bible.
Jesus never had any children. He could not, therefore, set an example for us in this area.
John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

We aren’t told that He actually whipped anyone,(as in “Bend over and grab your ankles”) but the threat certainly was there. I imagine if He was ‘driving’ people out of the temple with a whip, it isn’t unreasonable to assume that it might have made contact.

I don’t think anybody is teaching that childishness is itself sin. Jesus was a child at some point and I’m quite sure modeled sinless childishness.

But the fact that kids are childish doesn’t erase the fact that at times they are sinful. Both conditions have to be corrected. Paul’s observation that when he became a man he put away childish things reflects the belief that this is what a man ought to do. So childishness is something we are supposed to move away from.

That can certainly be overdone.

Sadly we live in a culture that, on the whole, tries to move kids prematurely out of childhood in some respects while keeping them mired there in others—and on the whole we seem to have reversed what ought to be retained and what ought to be left behind as quickly as possible.

So we’ve got bills in some states that would require sex ed for kindergardeners. At the same time, we’ve got 30 year old guys living with mom and playing video games half the day… and dad’s that dress and act like like they stopped maturing around age 14.

Sad.

About spanking...

There’s a difference between a bad idea and poor implementation of a good idea. No number of examples of the latter is proof of the former. Grab a million people at random and put them on ice skates. Probably 100 of them can skate worth beans. But this says nothing at all about what “skating” can be and should be.

Since school teaching days, I’ve been convinced that the most effective discipline tool any parent/authority has is the one that is hardly ever used. That is, the punishment that is so dreaded that just the thought of it is a powerful deterrent—that’s real leverage. I’m sure I sound callous to some, but you learn that from managing classrooms of 30+ 7th graders. In the case of the classroom, the phone call home was the dreaded tool hardly ever used. It became that by having several options that would be used before that one. And the kids knew exactly how to avoid getting to the phone call scenario.

Any act of punishment you are using constantly is not working.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

I agree. I think there are two kinds of childishness- that which is the result of the natural simple-mindedness of children, and that which springs from their sin nature. Why do kids not want to go to bed? Why do they resist brushing their teeth? Neither one are painful or stressful (normally). Such unreasonable stubbornness IMO stems from their sin nature. That’s different from the child who doesn’t understand physics enough to know that parachuting from the garage roof with a trash bag is a really bad idea. Both scenarios are because children lack understanding of the implications of being allowed to give in to their desires.

Another one of those impossible questions to answer would be how Cain and Abel interacted as children before the Fall. Did they fight over the Lego bricks and Lincoln Logs? “Mine! Mine!” Did they cry because they were experiencing stress and anxiety? If many of the behaviors that children exhibit stem from their sin nature, even if they don’t comprehend their actions, I’d still call it ‘sin’. Again- sin is not imputed where there is no law, and as parents we should take that into consideration, but I just can’t say with a straight face that many of the natural behaviors of children are not sinful at their root.

Maybe that’s putting too fine a point on it, but there ya’ go.

To reiterate, the only objection I had to Tripp (and many others) is the impression that their parenting advice was a ‘formula’ that all can/should follow. I think Tripp’s ideas can work for some people who have a similar family dynamic. But it is unhealthy to simply practice someone else’s theories without thoroughly considering how that person formed their opinions in the first place. Where they are consistent with Scripture, I think you’re safe. Where they go off into specific details, you have to step back and really look at yourself and your kids to see if those ideas would be effective. Even if you experiment a bit, you are not very likely to do any damage. I’ve tried different suggestions I’ve heard or read- adopted some, discarded others. I’ve read parenting books out loud to my kids and asked them what they thought about the different methodologies and family dynamics. Interestingly enough, they know a Biblical concept when they see it, and acknowledge that discipline, however unpleasant it is at the time, is necessary.

A sort of side note- people who have injured or killed their children because they read a book that advised spanking are lunatics. Not even in the Pearl’s books does a sane person come away with the idea that they are advocating beating one’s child with a rubber hose until the kid breaks a bone or stops breathing.

One other criticism of SACH I would like to post publicly, for the sake of parents and kids everywhere, is Tripp’s bizzare claims of his spanking method being biblical. I state that in strong language because his actual book uses such strong language to claim that his “spanking procedure” is biblical.

It’s not. It’s just his own method of spanking.

For example:

Parents, you do not have to bare you chilren’s bottoms to spank them. You are perfectly free in the Lord spank them clothed. Search the Scriptures.

(And with the s`xual milieu of the day, I really recommend seriously considering that option.)

And as I have said repeatedly, in the Lord, you are free not to spank them. Love them, discipline them, train them in the happy habit of obedience, yes.

But parents, you are free from many of the burdens parenting gurus are laying upon you and your children.

That reminds me, Tripp’s definition of obedience—w/o excuse, w/o delay, etc—think very, very carefully about whether or not that definition is entirely true, especially the way he applies it. Sure sounds good, but do yourself and your children some good by thinking it out …

Anne - how would you define obedience? More precisely, in what sense can obedience be with excuse, with delay?

Susan - while Scripture is not explicit, I think the implication is that Cain and Abel were offspring of fallen parents. Else, how would they have been included in Adam’s fall? Each of them would have had to also sin individually apart from their parents and then be cast separately out of the garden if they were born before the fall.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

[Chip Van Emmerik] Susan - while Scripture is not explicit, I think the implication is that Cain and Abel were offspring of fallen parents. Else, how would they have been included in Adam’s fall? Each of them would have had to also sin individually apart from their parents and then be cast separately out of the garden if they were born before the fall.
I agree, but either way, it’s a hypothetical question. The point is to differentiate between simple-minded childishness and childishness that is a result of the sin nature.

Sorry, I missed the hypothetical part somehow. Guess I need to slow down a little when I’m reading.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

It would truly be fascinating to see how a couple of siblings might have behaved pre-Fall.

I suspect that if Adam and Eve hadn’t disobeyed in reference to the Tree, the first kids would have done it by stomping a foot and shouting “No!” at Adam.

Would also be awesome to have a detailed account of Jesus’ behavior as a child. We only have Luke 2.52 and context. But perhaps one reason we don’t is that His childhood may have been so completely unlike that of any ordinary child (or not… Joseph and Mary seem to have completely forgotten for a while that He was not an ordinary child!)

But we know what we need to. What is revealed is all the really important info… and what is not revealed must be relatively unimportant.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Chip Van Emmerik] Anne - how would you define obedience? More precisely, in what sense can obedience be with excuse, with delay?
Chip, I am so sorry, I just cannot address this at this moment. I have a lot of thoughts and would like to explore this, but my husband has been so gracious to let me spend so much time responding to this thread already, i need to take some time off here for rest of the day and we’re going out of town tomorrow, but I may have internet access. I’ll try to write out some thoughts so I can put something here when I get a moment.

Maybe someone else has something to contribute, too.

Maybe start with the thought Rachel posted elsewhere that we can really just teach compliance, not obedience. I think there are good insights in that addmitance. That is not where my own thoughts had gone with Tripp’s words.

… OK, stop talking, Anne. Go be with your husband.

I have read parts of Clay Clarkson’s book and SACH, twice.

I read part of Clarkson’s book, shortly after it came out. A friend asked me to read it, as she was confused on his interpretation of the Hebrew meaning of na’ar. Aaron pretty much summed it up for me:
[Aaron Blumer] Anne, read most of Clarkson’s case on “young man” several days ago. There are some serious problems there.
I believe Clarkson is in serious error here.

The first time I read Ted Tripp’s book, SACH, was about 14 years ago. At that time, I had three children, my eldest was about 10 years old and I was expecting my 4th. I believed at that time, the book was pretty solid. The second time I read this book was two years ago, when our church went through the book, with the video series. At that point in time, I had 6 children, and my eldest was 21-22 years old. I was now questioning a bit of Tripp’s information, regarding the older teens-adult children. The information for younger children I found to be mostly right on. The older teenage section I had issues with that one. As I recall, he was not even touching on accountability, which I think is lacking. I should also mention here, what was on the video series was more often, not necessarily every thing from the book, it was expounded information. I had a hard time remembering what was actually in the book and what was on the video.

I strongly believe when we have several children, of mixed genders, we get a much bigger, broader perspective of the vast differences in personality types and gender issues. We see how little we do know and lean upon the Lord for more tools to work with the children He has given to us. Going back to the culture, Anne, you would have had families with many more children and lots of little ones at the same time. They would not have had the time to stop, every time Jimmy, Johnny or Suzy needed to be held and reasoned with as to why they are not allowed to club their sibling over the head with a rock. I think we lose site of this very important detail when we perhaps have the luxury of time with only a few children, who might be spaced out by several years. These comments are not meant to say having lots of children close together is the way to go, I am simply bringing up this point to emphasize the culture that Anne speaks of, and to put it into perspective with the attempt Clarkson’s has on his wrong interpretation of the Hebrew word.

If we logically look at the idea that na’ar in proverbs is referring mostly to an older teenage child, and that if one believes in spanking, it should only be done to an older child, not younger, we have a problem. Please help me understand how a parent can discipline a disobedient, rebellious child when that child is bigger and stronger than the parent? A child at that stage cannot be easily spanked. I know there are those people who believe that a child is no longer under parental authority when a child hits 18 years of age and in some cases, not until 20 years of age. If that’s the case, then ‘spanking’ for a “na’ar” would be limited to 2-4 years, maybe? We know that many teenage children were married in that culture, so then discipline would not even be an issue, would it? I would argue that this is not the time to be physical in disciplining your children, this is the time to come along side them with the Word of God, with reason, and with steadfast love. It’s when those things fail, that we can see where scripture talks about physical punishment, but that is death by way of stoning.

Anne, I am quoting part of your post from above here. With respect, I have to tell you, when I first read these words of yours, I had conclude, I believe this was part of the problem. You only had the one tool, ‘spanking’ and by your own words here, it does not appear you were implementing it in love, you were angry and frustrated. Any type of discipline that is implemented with anger and frustration is bound to not work, or it will have the appearance it’s working, when in fact it is not.
[Anne Sokol]
[dmicah] Anne,

When my first child was 2, I was a frustrated, spanking parent. Spanking was basically the ONLY parenting skill I had available to myself and our relationship. I was expressing my discipline frustrations to an acquaintance, and she amazingly packed up a box with a billion “gracious” parenting books and mailed them to me here in Kiev. They were not all anti-spanking. In fact, Ross Campbell’s Relational Parenting (hands-down the #1 book I would recommend to parents of small kids), does advise spanking on some occasions, but he has a LOT of things to do that are positive ways of “compliance training” (ha ha). I did a lot of reading, a LOT of learning other parenting skills, ways to help my child obey that were not punishing in nature. It took me several months of transition time, a HUGE mental change from “I MUST teach you to obey me.” to, “how can I come along side my child and help her learn obedience in a way that my manner is Christlike?” … It took me time to wean away from spanking, from threatening spanking, from going from spanking to yelling for control … to learning patient ways to teach obedience.
I believe Anne, if you had used spanking like you are using the other tools you are using now, you might have had much better success. I see spanking in scripture, but I do not believe it’s the only tool we have available. We do have to take into consideration the parent, the child, the situation (such as foster parenting), and everything else.

Respectfully,

Carol

These are some thoughts on obedience. I’ve been mulling this over for 2-3 yrs so it will be interesting to take it farther.
[SACH, 138ff] Obedience is the willing submission of one person to the authority of another. It means more than a child doing what he is told. It means doing what he is told—Without challenge, Without excuse, Without delay… . When they refuse to obey at once, they are not obeying. Submission to authority means taht they obey without delay, excuse or challenge.
First, let’s accept his definition in the first line: obedience = willing submission to authority. He then makes a leap to say that this means w/o delay, excuse, challenge.

So, I started thinking about this when Skyla was about 1 or 2. Tripp says to spank “when you’ve given a directive that he has heard and is within his capacity to understand and he has not obeyed without challenge, without excuse, without delay.” (This is in the infancy to 4-/5-yr-old section.) [Note: Are parents who only spank for outright defiance really doing what Tripp teaches?]

I noticed that she was a very intense play-er; she had out certain little toys and she had a thought-out plan and was very intent on arranging them and taking them through very specific movements, and disruption of this was very hard for her to handle mentally and emotionally. It was like she was on another planet.

So, if I were “obeying” Tripp, giving my kid a directive during this intense play time, I saw that I would be working against something in the make-up of her personality. (She plays the same way now some, but it’s not as intense and she very easily handles interruptions for doing things for me.) Should I do this and teach her how these toys were her heart’s idols? Something was not right here.

His whole training routine sounds a lot like training lab rats, kwim. Consistent unpleasant result if you don’t do the words. Not saying behavior modification is totally wrong, but constantly using negative reinforcement instead of positive teaching is a very undesirable style of teaching and discipleship. Was I expecting her to become my little robot? It kind of sounds like it, and I really didn’t want my kids to become unthinking or passive in their compliance—there are times when kids need to say no to wicked authority.

I also thought about the way God gives us commands. For example, I’m waking up. My plan is to go to the bathroom, so I stand up. Immediately, God says to me, “Anne, please go into the kitchen and fry eggs.”

?

How does God give us commands? There are times, when we are really listening to His Spirit, that He will impress on us specific directives. But the usual order of God’s commands are not that way. He gives us commands like “love one another,” “pray always,” “respect your husband,” “give to those in need,” –things we have time to ponder, implement, experience in new ways, etc. When I get up to go to the bathroom, I may remember that I need to pray while I’m getting ready for the day.

Now, having said that, I do teach my kids to obey—that my words have meaning. But I try to do it in a more relational way. This doesn’t mean it’s always pleasant either but it isn’t always unpleasant.

But anyway, About Tripp’s definition, I don’t really see that emphasis in Scripture.

I think, too, although this is not always practical with little kids, that God does want us to be very involved in obedience, in searching out the meaning of His commands, being thinking people as He created us to be. He created us with desires, and He wills and works in our hearts to help us obey. Sheesh, when He withdraws His mercy, we cannot control our disobedient hearts. And when we obey, it’s so interlaced with our sins.

Also, I think maybe we need to be a little more consistent in our teaching about the significance and source of obedience. There are, in the final sum before God, two ways we can be counted obedient. One is that we can obey, without fail, the 10 commandments for our entire lives. Second, we can have faith that Christ fulfilled them for us, and this be accounted to us. In the day when destinies are decided, as Tripp talks about, that’s what really matters. So maybe as parents, we teach our kids the habit of obedience more for the goal of preparing them to obey the faith as God tests and purifies them throughout their lives. (Practical obedience will come of that, and it gets generally hairy trying to talk about or separate faith, sanctification, and obedience.) That’s why I think how we teach obedience can be so crucial.
[Matthew 21:28-32] What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ “ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Would tripp say neither were obedient?

Maybe doing the will of the father/parent, would be an interesting idea to pursue, as was said so often by Jesus. And even Jesus, in the Garden, didn’t struggle with obeying, but maybe with the hardness of the act.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts so far.

dear carol,

I think it’s wonderful that God leads parents in various ways. He is so kind to us, you know? I will always be a very imperfect mother. But I am so glad that God has shown me that He still perfectly accepts me in Christ, even with all my imperfections. He is so graciously leading me into deeper knowledge of Him and His character and dealings with us, and He is transforming me. Maybe that is what parenting is all about. He has been so kind in giving me two forgiving daughters, and a husband who loves theology and takes me deeper and deeper into the unfathomable grace of God in accepting us helpless sinners, even making us His dear and beloved children, giving us an inheritance in eternity with His Son.

What wonderful truths we have to build our lives upon and set our hearts on the age to come when our hearts and bodies will be united in perfect love with our very God.

As you come to understand His love, may God’s very fulness be in you, Carol.

I think when we talk about robotic obedience, one has to reach into a bucket of of silly and unreasonable demands. We don’t (or shouldn’t) give our kids directives simply to manipulate and jerk them around. God doesn’t expect you to hold your water in order to make breakfast- what would be the purpose in that? Maybe some parents give their kids wacky orders to ‘test’ their obedience. I’d say their just practicing their megalomania on their kids, or playing kick the dog because their boss at work is a jerk, or some other frustration that they are taking out on the weak and vulnerable. May the fleas of a thousand camels nest in their armpits.

God gave directives in Scripture and did expect to be obeyed immediately and with a good attitude (since God looks at the heart and weighs our motivations). Moses striking the rock comes to mind. Jonah is a great example of someone who got put in major Time Out for zigging instead of zagging. But we can only go so far in comparing God’s dealings with our own, because 1) we aren’t mind readers 2) we tend to act in our own self-interest 3) we can’t see the future. Our requirements are always seriously short-sighted compared to God’s. And let’s face it- the tasks we give our kids are usually fairly simple. “Take out the trash”, “Pick up your toys”, “Brush your teeth”. If they know what to do and how to do it, do they seriously need to contemplate those commands before complying?

If the directive is “Be nice to your sister”- that’s too vague. Maybe what the parent means is “Stop beating your sister over the head with the hairbrush.” But if the parent is in the process of teaching the child to be nice to their sister, they should explain what that means and give specific examples of how to implement it. You can order a kid to ‘be patient’ or ‘be kind’, but that doesn’t tell them very much when they are 2 or 3 years old. That is definitely when you go alongside your child and model the correct behavior and encourage them daily. But once they get the picture, they are responsible for what they know.

On immediate, cheerful obedience- It isn’t very often that I give an ‘order’ without qualifying it. IOW, if I want them to clean their rooms, I let them know if I expect them to do it immediately, or have it done by 5pm. If they need to stop playing and pick up their toys, I get their attention first and have them look at me before I give them instructions. If they then delay, that is defiance. If they huff and puff about it, that is a bad attitude, which receives an adjustment. If they don’t complete the task as instructed, that is also disobedience. And as Tripp apparently explains- we are talking about tasks that we are sure the kids understand and are able to accomplish. We aren’t asking the 6 year old to mow the grass and clean the gutters.

But does life happen sometimes? Do they get interrupted in the midst of a task and forget to get back to it? Sure- it happens to all of us. So the idea often conveyed by non or anti-spankers is that a parent who spanks for delayed obedience just walks up to the kid, yanks ‘em up by the armpit and starts whippin’ the fire out of them- this picture isn’t (and shouldn’t be) accurate. If I don’t know what happened to cause a delay, I ask. What a concept. We find out if they were stalling (and thus disobeying) or if they have a legitimate excuse. A parent doesn’t lose authority by asking questions, and the child understands that the parent is going out of their way to be fair.

I also teach my kids as they get older that they are allowed to ask questions and make suggestions when appropriate. This is something they must be taught how to do, and it is a privilege that I expect them not to take for granted. If I ask them to do something, but I’ve forgotten or don’t know something that might affect the situation, they are free to let me know what’s up and then ask how I want them to handle it. If they have what they think is a better idea they are free to offer it. When I consider it, we both learn something, whether I agree to their idea or explain why it won’t work. But kids need to know that if they use that privilege as a stalling tactic or point of negotiation to get out of performing a task, they will lose it.

I thought Carol made an excellent point. Too many parents wait until they’ve reached the end of their rope, and then can’t discipline without losing their temper. Spanking should be calm and controlled and done when the disobedience happens. If a child has done something that receives the ‘threat’ of spanking- well, they’ve obviously disobeyed and should already be over the knee or grabbing the ankles or whatever. There is no 1-2-3 or second chance once it has been established in the parent’s mind that what is happening is disobedience or some loss of self control.

When we delay discipline, we are teaching our kids how many times they can disobey before they receive the consequences they wish to avoid. But it is a very bad idea to ever let a child think they can play footsies with sin or abuse grace and mercy for their own ends.

Teaching the heart and being gracious and using the rod for discipline are not either/or. Our calling as parents is to use both. Our challenge is to learn how to do that in a balanced and appropriate way for each child.

[Anne Sokol] First, let’s accept his definition in the first line: obedience = willing submission to authority. He then makes a leap to say that this means w/o delay, excuse, challenge.

So, I started thinking about this when Skyla was about 1 or 2. Tripp says to spank “when you’ve given a directive that he has heard and is within his capacity to understand and he has not obeyed without challenge, without excuse, without delay.” (This is in the infancy to 4-/5-yr-old section.) [Note: Are parents who only spank for outright defiance really doing what Tripp teaches?]

I noticed that she was a very intense play-er; she had out certain little toys and she had a thought-out plan and was very intent on arranging them and taking them through very specific movements, and disruption of this was very hard for her to handle mentally and emotionally. It was like she was on another planet.

So, if I were “obeying” Tripp, giving my kid a directive during this intense play time, I saw that I would be working against something in the make-up of her personality. (She plays the same way now some, but it’s not as intense and she very easily handles interruptions for doing things for me.) Should I do this and teach her how these toys were her heart’s idols? Something was not right here.
Anne, I think you’ve hit on something here…My kids are like this, too, some more than others. (They get it from their mom…In my case, Matt calls it “being on Planet Julie.”) I think there is definitely room in “Tripp-land” (not that my home is Tripp-land, but I do like his book) for wise interaction in situations like this. I think one key is that the child has, as Tripp said, “heard” the directive you’ve given. At our house, that means eye contact at the very least. A child hasn’t heard me unless I’ve made contact with his brain. Something that has proven very helpful for us is to give a child a heads-up that in ____ minutes, I’m going to ask him to be done playing/reading. Then, when I show up ___ minutes later, he’s prepared to listen and move on. As the kids grow older, they’re able to do it without as much preparation. And, IMO, regardless of their personality, they do need to be able to snap back into the real world quickly, since that is where they live at present. :) So, I guess what I’m saying is that Tripp (as far as I can tell) would have no problem with this kind of preparation. He doesn’t advocate giving aimless commands and then coming down hard when they’re not immediately obeyed…or being unreasonable, demanding, or impolite. Kids are people, too, and Tripp spends a lot of time (on the videos) talking about this.
His whole training routine sounds a lot like training lab rats, kwim. Consistent unpleasant result if you don’t do the words. Not saying behavior modification is totally wrong, but constantly using negative reinforcement instead of positive teaching is a very undesirable style of teaching and discipleship. Was I expecting her to become my little robot? It kind of sounds like it, and I really didn’t want my kids to become unthinking or passive in their compliance—there are times when kids need to say no to wicked authority.
Totally agree about the “no to wicked authority,” Anne. Good point. What I don’t find in Tripp is the part I bolded…especially “instead of positive teaching,” since that’s what the whole book is about. (He spends far less time on spanking/”negative reinforcement” than he does on positive teaching, as I remember.) He even talks (in the videos) about not wanting to develop robots who don’t understand obedience or who do not reason/think about how their actions either reflect or do not reflect obedience. Robots=Pharisees; Tripp comes down hard on this.
How does God give us commands? There are times, when we are really listening to His Spirit, that He will impress on us specific directives. But the usual order of God’s commands are not that way. He gives us commands like “love one another,” “pray always,” “respect your husband,” “give to those in need,” –things we have time to ponder, implement, experience in new ways, etc.
Right…but the pondering, implementing, and experiencing in new ways are, in and of themselves, continuing to obey. We shouldn’t ever “stop obeying” these ongoing commands. If we do, then we are sinning. Failing to submit to God at any point is sin.

Maybe someone already said this, but the daily, mundane directives we give our kids are simpler and more immediate. Their reactions to these directives either reflect willing submission or apathy/defiance/whatever else.
Now, having said that, I do teach my kids to obey—that my words have meaning. But I try to do it in a more relational way. This doesn’t mean it’s always pleasant either but it isn’t always unpleasant.
Right…I’m puzzled that you think Tripp says it always has to be unpleasant. (Maybe the videos are different than the book?) He seemed very “relational” to me in the lecture series. I’ve had great fun teaching my kids to obey…great times practicing “come here,” “stop,” and other little games that taught them to hear my voice, etc. And, yes, their attitude toward me does depend on my relationship with them. Am I a cold, condescending giver of commands, or am I an accessible, humble, human teacher of obedience? And, am I myself living a life wholly submitted to God?
Also, I think maybe we need to be a little more consistent in our teaching about the significance and source of obedience. There are, in the final sum before God, two ways we can be counted obedient. One is that we can obey, without fail, the 10 commandments for our entire lives. Second, we can have faith that Christ fulfilled them for us, and this be accounted to us. In the day when destinies are decided, as Tripp talks about, that’s what really matters. So maybe as parents, we teach our kids the habit of obedience more for the goal of preparing them to obey the faith as God tests and purifies them throughout their lives. (Practical obedience will come of that, and it gets generally hairy trying to talk about or separate faith, sanctification, and obedience.) That’s why I think how we teach obedience can be so crucial.
For sure, Anne.

Some confusion continues regarding “Christ’s obedience for us.”

Briefly, the problem is confusing the credit for Christ’s obedience vs. the idea that Christ’s obedience replaces our own.

Logically, if His obed. replaces ours, there is no reason at all to obey—ever. Sin that grace may abound.

But what Romans (and the other epistles) actually teach is that we receive credit for Christ’s righteousness. It is “accounted” to us. Then, because of union with Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Rom.8), we grow to actually fulfill God’s standard of righteousness (“law”) by actual obedience. Sanctification is growth in obedience (read, “true obedience,” as in, faith included) culminating in our being presented before Him faultless.

God’s purpose in salvation does not end with the positional changes—our justification. It includes actual transformation which is transformation into obedient children.

The idea that Christ’s obedience replaces our own is a subtle modern form of antinomianism. More importantly, it leads to thinking that obedience to God is optional… do it when we understand, when we feel ready, when it just sort of happens to us with no effort on our part, etc. It’s a very damaging way of thinking and not supportable by a comprehensive reading of the NT.

And grace is cheapened in a setting where no obedience is actually expected. We are not helping kids understand grace if we teach them that obedience is optional. Rather, “optional obedience” communicates a lower standard and, therefore, less grace is involved in forgiving failures. In reality, obedience is required and grace is so amazing because obedience is required. Grace is God’s answer to our failure. But we have not failed if obedience was optional to begin with.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] Some confusion continues regarding “Christ’s obedience for us.”

Briefly, the problem is confusing the credit for Christ’s obedience vs. the idea that Christ’s obedience replaces our own.

Logically, if His obed. replaces ours, there is no reason at all to obey—ever. Sin that grace may abound.

But what Romans (and the other epistles) actually teach is that we receive credit for Christ’s righteousness. It is “accounted” to us. Then, because of union with Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Rom.8), we grow to actually fulfill God’s standard of righteousness (“law”) by actual obedience. Sanctification is growth in obedience (read, “true obedience,” as in, faith included) culminating in our being presented before Him faultless.
You may be responding to something else in the thread, but I note that the distinction you make is foreign to Protestant theology. You will agree with me, I’m sure, that the concept of substitute is interchangeable with that of replacement? So, penal substitutionary atonement is logically equivalent to penal replacement atonement? Further, I think you would agree that PSA is the logical ground of double imputation? So, how could Christ’s obedience be credited to us without replacing our own? If by simple addition, we are back in Roman Catholicism (or perhaps something more eccentric).

I think you’re trying to make the point that the Christian is morally obligated to keep God’s law. I agree, but I don’t think the distinction you’ve drawn is valid or helps your case. Also, the portion of your quote that I bolded is identical to Roman Catholic criticism of justification by faith alone. As you stated it, you deny orthodox Protestant theology, but I don’t think you meant what you said, because you’re apparently using an idiosyncratic meaning for “replaces.”

My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

No, it’s not an off the wall definition of “replacement,” just one that has a narrow scope.

In the context of what I’m talking about, Christ’s obedience does not replace our obedience. I do not deny that replacements can and do occur, but we do not get to say “He obeyed for us, therefore we do not have to obey,” which is essentially Anne’s argument on that point.

I don’t think we need to confuse justification and sanctification. The former is credit, the latter is actual change. The latter occurs because of the former, and it’s accurate to say that our obedience “in Him” is also, most truly, His obedience. But we still have to actually do it and it is still required.

Maybe a better way to say it is that “His doing does not replace our doing.” The scores of imperatives in the NT simply make no sense if we have nothing to do.

Does that clarify what I’m trying to say?

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] No, it’s not an off the wall definition of “replacement,” just one that has a narrow scope.

In the context of what I’m talking about, Christ’s obedience does not replace our obedience. I do not deny that replacements can and do occur, but we do not get to say “He obeyed for us, therefore we do not have to obey,” which is essentially Anne’s argument on that point.

I don’t think we need to confuse justification and sanctification. The former is credit, the latter is actual change. The latter occurs because of the former, and it’s accurate to say that our obedience “in Him” is also, most truly, His obedience. But we still have to actually do it and it is still required.

Maybe a better way to say it is that “His doing does not replace our doing.” The scores of imperatives in the NT simply make no sense if we have nothing to do.

Does that clarify what I’m trying to say?
Aaron, I understand what you’re thinking… . hm, where to go with this … . Is sanctification a gift or a work? Can you ever work enough, obey enough? Where will we give account for our sanctification? What will it look like in heaven?

anyway, I’m not sure how to talk about this. I’m not saying we don’t have to obey. Our obedience is just on a different level than this, is all I know to say.

I just want to thank everyone for this very thoughtful conversation. I have learned a lot having to put into print the things the Lord’s been teaching me. And I am so glad that even though others parent differently, we still want the same deep life with Christ for our children and we are united in our prayers for their hearts.

Thanks to those who have written me from all over, people I don’t even know. Your words and encouragement have meant a lot to me. And I am on a journey and learning just as you are. And many of you are much farther and more experienced than I am. I wish that you, too, had been able to contribute instead of this only being mostly my own feeble attempt of articulating these deep things.

[Anne] Aaron, I understand what you’re thinking… . hm, where to go with this … . Is sanctification a gift or a work? Can you ever work enough, obey enough? Where will we give account for our sanctification? What will it look like in heaven?

anyway, I’m not sure how to talk about this. I’m not saying we don’t have to obey. Our obedience is just on a different level than this, is all I know to say.
Alot of questions there. It’s a big topic. I’m not sure I understand the relevance of all of them, but I’ll take a stab at short answers.

Is it a gift or a work? It is the gift of transformed works (but also transformed hearts, minds, affections). Our works are changed from disobedience to obedience. (They are not meritorious works. We’re talking about believers here. All the meriting is already accomplished.)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Php 2:12–13)

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. (Tit 3:8)




Can you ever work enough or obey enough? No. We’ll be doing it for all of eternity… thankfully, without any of the encumbrances that now hinder us! But in this life we’re to be continually growing in grace (2Pet.3:18, Php 1:6)

Where will we give account for our sanctification? I’m not sure I understand the question. We will give account for our works before God, presumably in Heaven.

For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: “As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. (Ro 14:10–12)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Co 5:10)




What will it look like in heaven? It will be beautiful! It will look like adopted children who are “holy and blameless and above reproach before Him” (Col.1:22) serving Him forever (Rev.22:3).

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Martin Luther] Yet a Christian has need of none of these things for justification and salvation, but in all his works he ought to entertain this view and look only to this object—that he may serve and be useful to others in all that he does; having nothing before his eyes but the necessities and the advantage of his neighbour. Thus the Apostle commands us to work with our own hands, that we may have to give to those that need. He might have said, that we may support ourselves; but he tells us to give to those that need. It is the part of a Christian to take care of his own body for the very purpose that, by its soundness and well-being, he may be enabled to labour, and to acquire and preserve property, for the aid of those who are in want, that thus the stronger member may serve the weaker member, and we may be children of God, thoughtful and busy one for another, bearing one another’s burdens, and so fulfilling the law of Christ.

Here is the truly Christian life, here is faith really working by love, when a man applies himself with joy and love to the works of that freest servitude in which he serves others voluntarily and for nought, himself abundantly satisfied in the fulness and riches of his own faith.
martin luther did a wonderful job discussion the purpose of sanctification, and it isn’t that long of a read, either: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/cclib-3… Please take the time to read it-it’s very worth it!
[Martin Luther] In this we see clearly that the Apostle lays down this rule for a Christian life: that all our works should be directed to the advantage of others, since every Christian has such abundance through his faith that all his other works and his whole life remain over and above wherewith to serve and benefit his neighbour of spontaneous goodwill.
[Martin Luther] Thus a Christian, like Christ his Head, being full and in abundance through his faith, ought to be content with this form of God, obtained by faith; except that, as I have said, he ought to increase this faith till it be perfected. For this faith is his life, justification, and salvation, preserving his person itself and making it pleasing to God, and bestowing on him all that Christ has, as I have said above, and as Paul affirms: “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God” (Gal. ii. 20). Though he is thus free from all works, yet he ought to empty himself of this liberty, take on him the form of a servant, be made in the likeness of men, be found in fashion as a man, serve, help, and in every way act towards his neighbour as he sees that God through Christ has acted and is acting towards him. All this he should do freely, and with regard to nothing but the good pleasure of God, and he should reason thus:—

Lo! my God, without merit on my part, of His pure and free mercy, has given to me, an unworthy, condemned, and contemptible creature all the riches of justification and salvation in Christ, so that I no longer am in want of anything, except of faith to believe that this is so. For such a Father, then, who has overwhelmed me with these inestimable riches of His, why should I not freely, cheerfully, and with my whole heart, and from voluntary zeal, do all that I know will be pleasing to Him and acceptable in His sight? I will therefore give myself as a sort of Christ, to my neighbour, as Christ has given Himself to me; and will do nothing in this life except what I see will be needful, advantageous, and wholesome for my neighbour, since by faith I abound in all good things in Christ.

Thus from faith flow forth love and joy in the Lord, and from love a cheerful, willing, free spirit, disposed to serve our neighbour voluntarily, without taking any account of gratitude or ingratitude, praise or blame, gain or loss. Its object is not to lay men under obligations, nor does it distinguish between friends and enemies, or look to gratitude or ingratitude, but most freely and willingly spends itself and its goods, whether it loses them through ingratitude, or gains goodwill. For thus did its Father, distributing all things to all men abundantly and freely, making His sun to rise upon the just and the unjust. Thus, too, the child does and endures nothing except from the free joy with which it delights through Christ in God, the Giver of such great gifts.
Motto: in Christ by faith; in my neighbor by love.

I guess that is one reason that parenting so much by punishment disturbs me theologically. It’s a justification or means to motivate a child to obey by fear. Yes, yes, yes, some level of fear is a very healthy thing! But overdoing that and making God seem like one to be obeyed in fear of punishment is mistaken. Living by this kind of fear leads to doubting Christianity. Understanding that we are truly, truly, freely accepted in Christ really is what gives us power to obey in love. And that is what a mature Christian does.

Aaron, what I was getting at is not that you’re unorthodox. I know you better than that. I just think that making a credit vs. replacement distinction isn’t the way to make your point. After all, Protestants do believe that Christ’s doing literally replaces our doing before the Father to secure our justification. Also, if one were to read the word “replace” uncharitably, I don’t see why one couldn’t read “credit” uncharitably as well.

If Anne said somewhere that obedience is “optional,” that’s certainly infelicitous wording as well. I would say the same thing to her - you don’t really mean what you said.

One of the things that historic Protestant theology emphasizes is that there is no bare concept of “law.” Someone is always under a particular relationship to the law. Those outside the covenant are under the law as a curse and a threat. Those inside the covenant are under the law as a privilege and a guide. (Some orthodox Lutherans will dispute the “under the law” terminology, but it works out similarly.)

Both Luther and Calvin stress the believer’s new position regarding the law. This ties in, I think, to Anne’s repeated assertion that it matters how obedience is taught. That was a central debate in the Reformation. Both sides acknowledged that Christians should be obedient, and that the true doctrine would lead to the best obedience (Luther hedged at this point, though). So, the Catholics accused the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone of providing an insufficient basis for requiring sanctification. The Protestants retorted that the only obedience Rome could offer was a slavish fear unworthy of a good Father.

I strongly urge anyone interested in this to read Calvin’s Institutes 3.16. The whole chapter is only about 6 pages. Here’s a quick summary from Cornelis Venema:

“The charge of Calvin’s opponents assumes that the mercy of God is an insufficient motive for good works, and so they substitute a motive of their own which, by stressing the ideas of merit, “forces out some slavish and coerced observances of the law.””

“The good works of God’s children are not extorted by the promise of a reward, but they represent the free obedience of faith in reciprocating the Father’s love in Christ. Knowing themselves to be God’s children through free adoption, those whom God justifies act accordingly, in a manner consistent with what might be expected of children who know his paternal goodness and love. For such children, the recognition of God’s gratuitous mercy alone, not precepts and sanctions, leads to repentance.”

One of Calvin’s arguments in the chapter is that the principle motivation for obedience cannot be threat and reward, but rather recognition of God’s honor and God’s mercy. We must distinguish between “slavish” obedience and “childlike” obedience, and I do think it’s pertinent to parenting that Calvin contrasts fearful and slavish with childlike.

There is a lot more that can be said about the relationship between justification and sanctification in Protestant theology, but the central point is that they are tightly intertwined. You don’t stop talking justification to go to sanctification. So, anyone trying to draw parallels between Christian sanctification and child-rearing is going to have to integrate the doctrines of justification and adoption (not to mention covenant) into the larger plan. I see “grace-centered” or “gospel-centered” parents attempting to do this, and I’m convinced it’s the only correct approach from a historic Protestant perspective. Of course, that’s a long way from endorsing anyone’s specific arguments, techniques, or taboos.

My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

I have come to the discussion late, as I was away from my computer for a few weeks. Anne, you are right that Luther was a great spokesman for God’s grace. He would not, however have applied his arguments the way you have about child rearing. You will find in his Table Talk, that he spoke very strongly for physical punishment of children. In one of those instances, he says in his Table Talk, commenting on Ephesians 6:4, “Give them whippings when they have deserved them, but kind words at the same time … so that they won’t think that they have nothing more good to expect from you.”

Another time he said, “Part of the role of being a teacher is as awful as being an executioner.” (also Table Talk, translating from the German.

Until a generation ago, Luther was famous in this country for his proverb: “The rod beside the apple” for child discipline.

No one in educational circles in Germany even raised the idea that corporal punishment was bad or ineffective for rearing children until Friedrich Schleiermacher did so at the beginning of the 1800s.

Jeff Brown

no, i don’t think luther was talking anything about child discipline when he wrote “concerning christian liberty.” I don’t see what the question is. I’m not saying he taught not to spank or hit kids. That is clay clarkson (not that he anywhere refers to luther either). (Personally, I’m prob’ly ok with spanking to some extent; don’t use it myself anymore, but I am opposed to what Tripp is really teaching about spanking—the way he uses the Bible—and how/when he is really saying to do it ;)

i more see luther with the ideas of how, when we understand justification correctly, we understand sanctification correctly, too. And that can/does apply to childrearing—or how we raise our children to think about their obedience and their motives for obedience.