A Tale of Two Colleges

NickImage

This week brings fascinating news from two colleges. The two institutions are facing almost opposite situations, and the contrast between them is both remarkable and illustrative. Because change occurs constantly, Christian organizations are constantly required to apply their principles to new situations. Cedarville University and Faith Baptist Bible College provide a clear contrast in terms of how new applications might take place.

The school that is now Cedarville University started out as a Bible institute in Cleveland. During the early 1950s it acquired the name and campus of Cedarville College, formerly a Presbyterian school. For many years, Cedarville College staked out its identity as a fundamentalist, Baptist institution. Under the leadership of James T. Jeremiah, it was one of the flagship schools identified with the Regular Baptist movement.

In 1978, Paul Dixon became president of the college. He brought with him a vision to make Cedarville into a world-class university. Regular Baptists, however, had neither the numerical nor the economic strength to fulfill his dream. Dixon needed a larger constituency and broader appeal, and in pursuit of these goals he began to downplay some of the distinctives that Regular Baptists thought important. There was a softening of ecclesiastical separation as the platform featured a broader variety of evangelicals. There was an increasing openness and even friendliness toward the more current trends in popular culture. There was even a shifting of the criteria for faculty selection. By the early 1990s, Cedarville professors were putting themselves publicly on record for their (belated) support of the Equal Rights Amendment—legislation that was almost universally opposed by conservative Christians of all sorts.

As Cedarville broadened its appeal, it experienced growing tensions with Regular Baptists. These tensions came to a head when, at the end of Dixon’s tenure, Cedarville formally identified with the Southern Baptist state convention in Ohio. Under the new president, William Brown, the university refused to endorse the Statement of Purpose of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, a requirement for partnering institutions. For both these reasons, the GARBC terminated its partnership with Cedarville in 2006.

The divorce was ugly, at least on the Cedarville side. Since the GARBC national conference was held in Michigan that year, Cedarville supporters were transported by busloads to try to overwhelm the vote. At one point some threatened to rush the platform if a particular parliamentary ruling did not go their way. In the end, however, the association had the votes to remove Cedarville from partnership.

Shortly thereafter, scandal erupted on campus as a couple of the most conservative tenured professors were terminated suddenly. Alarmed constituents formed watchdog groups and began to spread word of theological aberrations. Most Cedarville constituents found these charges difficult to believe, but the university continued to show signs of movement away from its fundamentalist roots. In an attempt to reassure conservatives, in 2011 the university adopted white papers dealing with creation, with justification, and with divine omniscience.

The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.

In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.

While these events have been taking place at Cedarville, Faith Baptist Bible College has been facing a difficult decision of its own. The school long ago staked out a position that was traditionally dispensationalist, strongly Baptist, and conservative in its appropriation of contemporary popular culture. It has required its students to become members in churches that share these commitments.

Through the years, one of the congregations that allied itself with Faith was Saylorville Baptist Church. Dozens of students and several staff are members at Saylorville, and in many ways (for example, its commitment to evangelism) Saylorville models values that Faith shares. Over the years, however, Saylorville has adopted an increasingly contemporary ministry, and it has recently dropped the word Baptist from its name. As Saylorville has made these moves, Faith has felt considerable pressure to soften its commitment to its principles and to broaden its appeal.

Decades ago, one of the presidents of Faith Baptist Bible College (David Nettleton) argued that when Christians disagree, they must either limit their message or limit their fellowship. This past week, Faith’s board made the decision to stand by its message and allow its fellowship to shrink. Students and staff will no longer be permitted to join Saylorville Church.

This may represent the hardest decision that the administration and board at Faith has ever made. They are not angry with Saylorville. They love its pastor and its staff, and they believe that Saylorville is in some ways a good model. They are not denouncing the church, but they are separating from it at one level. They are making this move because, if they do not, their principles will be obscured. They are aware that the decision will be costly.

Cedarville and Faith represent opposite approaches to the application of principles in changing situations. Cedarville committed itself to wider influence and was willing to sacrifice principles in order to obtain it. Faith has committed itself to maintain its principles, and it is willing to accept narrower influence in order to uphold them. Both have responded to change, but they have responded in opposite directions.

Granted, sometimes Christians hold mistaken principles that they ought to revise. Simply to abandon principles in favor of increased influence, however, is a devil’s bargain. Once principles have been obscured, they become very difficult to clarify. Both Faith and Cedarville will face some unhappy constituents. Cedarville’s will be unhappy because their school’s position is not clear. Faith’s will be unhappy because their school’s is. The difference is this: no one is attracted to obscurity and uncertainty, but some may be attracted to a clearly stated position when it is consistently maintained.

Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Martin Luther (1483-1546), translated by Richard Massie (1800-1887)

Christ Jesus lay in death’s strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God’s right hand he stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah. Hallelujah!

It was a strange and dreadful strife
When life and death contended;
The victory remained with life,
The reign of death was ended;
Holy Scripture plainly saith
That death is swallowed up by death,
His sting is lost for ever. Hallelujah!

Here the true Paschal Lamb we see,
Whom God so freely gave us;
He died on the accursed tree—
So strong his love!—to save us.
See, his blood doth mark our door;
Faith points to it, death passes o’er,
And Satan cannot harm us. Hallelujah!

So let us keep the festival
Whereto the Lord invites us;
Christ is himself the Joy of all,
The Sun that warms and lights us.
By his grace he doth impart
Eternal sunshine to the heart;
The night of sin is ended. Hallelujah!

Then let us feast this joyful day
On Christ, the Bread of heaven;
The Word of grace hath purged away
The old and evil leaven.
Christ alone our souls will feed,
He is our meat and drink indeed;
Faith lives upon no other. Hallelujah!

Discussion

Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.

I guess one cannot be a Democrat and a Fundamentalist!

By the way I am for decreased defense spending: I think that France, England, Germany, Japan and South Korea should have increased defense spending so that the US does not need to defend them! See a recent WSJ article entitled Why France Can’t Fight

On paper France has 230,000 men and women in uniform, but only 30,000 are estimated to be deployable on six months notice.

France does spend money on modern weaponry: Since 2009, one of the few pieces of equipment that saw an upward revision in planned inventory through 2014 is Dassault’s twin-engine Rafale fighter jet, of which France already has more than 70, with plans for nearly 160 more.

But militaries need the not-so-sexy stuff, too, and here Paris has been shortchanging its soldiers for years. French infantrymen must now deploy with barely half the number of logistical transport vehicles the military had planned four years ago. French diplomats spent the first week of the Malian intervention haggling with the U.S., Canada and Britain for American-made C-17s to transport soldiers and gear to Mali.

George Will has recently addressed the issue - The death of NATO?

NATO’s secretary-general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, recently warned that “at the current pace of cuts,” it is hard to see how in the future “Europe could maintain enough military capabilities to sustain” military operations such as those under way in Libya.

Actually, Europe could not sustain them today; only U.S. munitions, intelligence, refueling and other assets keep the Libyan operations going.

…..

Since the Cold War’s end, the combined GDP of NATO’s European members has grown 55 percent, yet their defense spending has declined almost 20 percent. Twenty years ago, those nations provided 33 percent of the alliance’s defense spending; today, they provide 21 percent.

The trajectory which you observed in Cedarville could be applied to several of our present conservative colleges and seminaries. The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism, the hesitancy to separate over “secondary doctirnes” and the emphasis of the doctrine of the gospel (soteriology) over a doxological (the glory of God) purpose all contribute to our younger generation being susceptible to becoming the next “conservative” evangelicals. May God give us wisdom to discern this slide to compromise in our own institutions, and churches. Ideas do have consequences.

Pastor Shane Belding

Victory Baptist Church Fort Frances Ontario Canada

Regardless of whether you agree with Faith’s decision in this case, I’m glad to see Dr. Bauder present the school in a positive light, and in a fuller context. Faith has much to offer, but is not an institution that is given to self-promotion. I think the thread on the related news item here on SharperIron is the most attention I have ever seen the school get on this site.

Unfortunately, that thread contains comments from some with little knowledge of Faith who seem willing to judge the school based on this one incident.

I hope this article draws some more informed reaction from Faith alumni and supporters, whatever side of the issue they may be on. Having made a statement on the other thread, I look forward to reading the comments of those with additional knowledge of the situation.

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

In defense of Cedarville: “As Cedarville broadened its appeal …”

Mission:

  • Faith is primarily oriented towards preparing young adults for vocational ministry
  • Cedarville is oriented towards preparing young adults for secular careers

Size:

  • If Faith has 300 students (and this number is not clear to me!)
  • Cedarville has 3000+ students

Offerings (both are regionally accredited with North Central Association of Colleges and Schools):

  • Faith has limited academic offerings (and one would expect that with a narrower mission!)
  • Cedarville has broad academic offerings: including engineering, computer science, nursing, Pharmacy, et cetera. Cedarville has fleshed out their offerings in the STEM fields - and Faith does not pretend make those offerings.

I suggest … appreciate Faith for what it is .. and Cedarville for what it is! Yes Cedarville broadened its appeal, but I suggest that they would not be the kind of University that they have become unless they had made some of these strategic decisions.

[Pastor Shane Belding] The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism…
I don’t understand this statement. Are you saying authentic fundamentalism is somehow greater (larger) than historic fundamentalism? How are these not the same thing?

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

[Pastor Shane Belding]

The trajectory which you observed in Cedarville could be applied to several of our present conservative colleges and seminaries. The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism, the hesitancy to separate over “secondary doctirnes” and the emphasis of the doctrine of the gospel (soteriology) over a doxological (the glory of God) purpose all contribute to our younger generation being susceptible to becoming the next “conservative” evangelicals. May God give us wisdom to discern this slide to compromise in our own institutions, and churches. Ideas do have consequences.

I know next to nothing about either school but I think you are right that ideas have consequences. I’m not sure who represents “authentic fundamentalism” today since all branches claim to be authentic or at least the most faithful. Yet the “hesitancy to separate over ‘secondary doctrines’” (depending how you define them and separation) actually better represents how Christians should relate to each other – separate when biblically mandated, fellowship as broadly as possible with believers committed to the full authority of Scripture, partner with those who more closely reflect your distinctives.

When we hold our distinctives with the same certainty with which we hold the fundamentals of the faith then we will practice a greater degree of separation. When we hold our distinctives with conviction but with a lesser degree of certainty (particularly in areas of historical divergence) we can enjoy genuine fellowship and express biblical unity. For example, I believe that believer’s baptism by immersion best reflects what the New Testament teaches and the apostles and early church practiced. Yet I am more convinced about the subject of baptism than the mode. And I wasn’t always exposed fairly to other views during some of my training. It took taking Church & Sacraments with Sinclair Ferguson at RTS to at least admit that others have compelling arguments for their positions. I still don’t buy into the position but I won’t separate from those who differ (although full partnership in some endeavors wouldn’t work). So how these schools see their mission and understand what and how much needs to be distinctively emphasized will determine what students and faculty they will attract. It also may determine their viability. May both schools prosper!

Just over a year and half ago, I was at Faith for a high school tournament. What I experienced was impressive.

The students were both friendly and helpful. The staff I found to be extremely interested in our needs and concerns.

The chapel services were outstanding. I could think I were at Bob Jones or Maranatha while being in attendance.

The music was very conservative and the preaching totally Biblical. I came away with a deeper respect and appreciation

for Faith.

I would NOT hesitate to send my children there today.

Would we have this problem if churches had not handed over the training of future ministers to colleges and universities?

Just askin’.

[Bert Baker]

Just over a year and half ago, I was at Faith for a high school tournament. What I experienced was impressive.

The students were both friendly and helpful. The staff I found to be extremely interested in our needs and concerns.

The chapel services were outstanding. I could think I were at Bob Jones or Maranatha while being in attendance.

The music was very conservative and the preaching totally Biblical. I came away with a deeper respect and appreciation

for Faith.

I would NOT hesitate to send my children there today.

Would you send your young adult there if he aspired to be a chemist? (or another one of the majors Cedarville offers but Faith does not)

I say this because if one wants to be a chemist, 4 years at Faith really will not advance a young adult in that field of endeavor! I would never say that one’s education dollars are wasted but to become a chemist will entail many more years and dollars after the Faith.edu education.

Jim,

You appear to be confusing two issues. One is the question of whether a Christian college can offer a curriculum that is broader than biblical studies or ministry training. Is there a place for a Christian university or liberal arts college? Your answer seems to be yes, and I agree with you in that answer. Separatist fundamentalism has fine example of both, the best-known being Bob Jones University. My brother is a graduate of BJU, and I believe that he received above-average preparation for his vocation (I also have two siblings who attended Cedarville, and I pastored a church that encouraged its young people to consider Cedarville). The breadth of the curriculum is simply not the issue.

The other issue has to do with doctrinal and ecclesiastical breadth. Dixon wanted a big university instead of a little liberal arts college. The Regular Baptist movement could not give him the students and money that he needed, so he began looking for a broader ecclesiastical base upon which to build. By itself, that is not necessarily a problem—all of the Regular Baptist institutions must reach beyond the GARBC, The question is, In which direction do they reach?

Cedarville has consistently reached toward its left. In order to appeal to those on the left, it had to broaden its commitments, connections, and philosophy in that direction. What Cedarville is facing now is that consequence of that broadening. Any movement toward its right is likely to cost it support from those to whom it has sought to appeal. The university cannot retreat very far, because it needs all 3,000 of those students to keep financing its operations.

Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no. To put it more broadly, a thoughtful person cannot simultaneously be a liberal and a conservative—and the connection between social/political and theological/ecclesiastical liberalism (or conservatism) is closer than some people seem to think. Given its current posture, Cedarville is not a consistently conservative institution.

All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.

Kevin

All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians.

This should never be, IMO, the purpose for attending any university or seminary. This is a function best served by parents, and sans parents, one’s church.

Which hearkens back to my earlier question…

I agree with you on the Democrat point

Re this: “All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.”

Or is it the job of the church to make people “good Christians”?!

I have no skin in this game … University of Cincinnati ‘71

All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.

I would say this is true of “fundamentalist” colleges like PCC as well, but for different reasons.

Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

Jim,

It is certainly not the job of avowedly Christian, evangelical institutions of higher learning to make people worse Christians.

If the mission of these institutions has no connection at all to fostering biblical Christianity, then why bother with them? Close their doors—we will be none the poorer.

Kevin

Majors at Faith:

  1. Administrative Assistant Major (A.A., B.S.)
  2. Assistant Pastor Major (B.S.)
  3. Biblical Studies Major (A.A., B.S., B.A.)
  4. Christian School Education Major (B.S.)
  5. Local Church Ministries Major (B.S.)
  6. Missions and Evangelism Major (A.A., B.S., B.A.)
  7. Music Ministries Major (B.S.)
  8. Pastoral Major (B.S., B.A.)

Really, the only majors females will likely pursue are #’s 1, 4, & 7 above. Biblical studies might appeal to some…..but that’s generally a male-dominated major too. (And # 7 would likely be only for a music teacher, since Minister of Music wouldn’t be an option in most baptist chuches.) Plus, the only major for # 4 at the secondary-teaching level is in English education. So anyone wishing to be, say, a high school Science or Math teacher probably needs to look elsewhere. So unless female students are interested in training to be administrative assistants or limited types of teachers, there really isn’t much in the way of choices for them.

[Kevin T. Bauder]

Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no.

Kevin (and Jim too since he agrees with you on this)

I really got a kick out of this since I’m a registered Democrat. I knew there was another reason why I couldn’t be a Fundamentalist :-) . In my defense, living in West Philly, I would never get to vote in local primaries as a Republican because there are no elected Republicans in this part of the city called “left of center.” If I lived in Northeast Philly where most of the Republicans are concentrated, I might be a Republican. And in the national primaries I can vote for the Democrat I would most like to see face the Republican. And I thought this was intelligent :-) .

Steve

[Kevin T. Bauder]

Jim,

It is certainly not the job of avowedly Christian, evangelical institutions of higher learning to make people worse Christians.

If the mission of these institutions has no connection at all to fostering biblical Christianity, then why bother with them? Close their doors—we will be none the poorer.

Kevin

  • I’m not convinced that Cedarville makes students worse Christians AND
  • I am not an advocate of “better off that their doors are closed”. I actually find your comment uncharitable
  • I value Cedarville while recognizing that it is not a perfect school.
  • Not to diss another school by name, but I think to call oneself a University while not offering the STEM offerings is disingenuous

As for us. We (my wife and I) did not come from even middle class backgrounds. We had to earn and pay our own way through colleges (my wife at St Pete Junior College and later at Florida State. Me from the U of Cincinnati). I am shocked by the cost of private education and what is being offered by Christian institutions: the lack of or poor accreditation, and the paltry offerings (when these kids graduate and enter probably the most difficult job market in 80 years!).

My Valuable, Cheap College Degree

Two of my children graduated from college debt free:

  • Child # 1:
    • Started working at pizza place at age 14. At 16 worked as barista at Caribou coffee (until college graduation)
    • Participated in Minnesota’s Post-Secondary Enrollment Option
    • Worked her entire way through college while attending state school full time.
    • By the way … a barista is hard work: on feet the entire time, opening store at 5:00 a.m. or closing it at 11:00 p.m.. Clothing and shoes get soaked with coffee
  • Child # 2:
    • Volunteered for the USMC after HS (9/11 was while he was in combat training)
    • Served in Iraq
    • 2 years of community college while working full time 2nd shift in bank operations
    • Joined the MN National Guard after 6 years in the Marines\
    • GI bill helped fund all
    • University of Minnesota - graduated May 2012 with a degree in engineering (worked full time for 3 of 4 semesters. Several semesters he worked multiple jobs)

Neither took out student loans …. neither received significant financial help from their parents … both graduated debt free.

[Kevin T. Bauder] Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

“We’ve done it this way for thousands of years” doesn’t tell me why universities are more Scriptural, appropriate, or superior to the local church for the training of ministers. Where does the Biblical authority lie for training and approving men for ministry?

University training also doesn’t inoculate its grads from ignorance, or guarantee congregations a qualified minister as per 1 Tim. 3, so the the idea that the only alternative to ignorant ministry is college is not entirely accurate.

IMO, one of the church’s safeguards against predators (of all stripes) is the close knit mentoring relationship that develops between the trainer and trainee, as well as the laying on of hands of the elders of the church. I think the traditional classroom may give us many learned men, but it doesn’t give us better ministers.

We’ve followed the world into the assembly line-conveyor belt method of educating young people, thinking of it as more efficient because we can do so much more for so many in a shorter amount of time. But where’s quality control? Wasn’t there a comment in another thread about seminary diplomas being used as passports into ministry positions, without so much as a baggage search?

How many controversial issues have we discussed here over the years that involve tension between churches and seminaries? And every time I ask myself the same questions.

I think Jim has a point about the difference between these two schools. I live in Beavercreek, within spittin’ distance of Cedarville, Some of our current (as in the church we are currently visiting) church leaders/teachers have attended or graduated from CU, many students attend the church, and my husband often does business with the school (he works for an equipment rental company) as well as many churches of different denominations in the area. The school has a good reputation in our community, but no one thinks of it in terms of primarily producing ministers. It is a good place to go to be around fellow Christians, have Christian professors, and also get a decent education.

Jim,

I am astonished to read that you find my comment uncharitable. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why.

You asked, “Or is it the job of the church to make people “good Christians”?!”

My answer is that Christian institutions of higher learning have no reason to exist if not to foster biblical Christiainity. Surely we don’t think that Cedarville or Bob Jones does a better job teaching chemistry than MIT or A&M. The reason that we want schools like that is precisely because of their Christian commitments and nurture. If they can’t give us that, then they may as well close—we don’t need them.

How is this uncharitable?

Kevin

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[Pastor Shane Belding] The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism…
I don’t understand this statement. Are you saying authentic fundamentalism is somehow greater (larger) than historic fundamentalism? How are these not the same thing?

The distinction I am making is historic fundamentalism was a movement in its infancy. Fundamentalism grew beyond separation only over the fundamentals. It began as a interdenominational movement and then broke off into more defined groups that saw the need to take separation beyond the fundamentals. The younger generation appears to deem this a deviance from the scriptures were as I do not. Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism were not separate groups in the infancy stage but as the doctrine of separation was exercised in the real world of ecclesiastical associations it became evident and necessary to broaden the scope of the doctrines which to separate over. The debate as to how many doctrines require ecclesiastical separation is difficult and varied according to each individual church and institution but is necessary to accurately apply the doctrine of separation. Approaching the topic of separation with the mindset that older was somehow purer is naive. Authentic fundamentalism ,whatever that is, well at least embrace that the bible calls for separation / limited fellowship (semantics) for more than just the fundamentals of the faith.

Pastor Shane Belding

Victory Baptist Church Fort Frances Ontario Canada

“Not to diss another school by name, but I think to call oneself a University while not offering the STEM offerings is disingenuous”

From a technical standpoint, does one have to have STEM offerings to be technically called a university? If not, “disingenuous” is probably an improper term.

Just like any school, folks need to be careful what they major in at that school. Even at the University of Minnesota I’m sure there are unemployed graduates because of the major they picked.

As to Susan’s point. I don’t think she is saying that each church needs to be giving out theology degrees for the pastorate. I think her point is that most fundamental churches’ sole blueprint to educate their young lay people is to ship them off to Bible college. There are two problems with that:

1) The expense for private liberal arts college is pretty steep nowadays, I know, I know, “I had to work my way through school”. But they aren’t making that much more per hour than you did 20-30 years ago and their college costs have quintupled.

2) Most of the time when young people go off to college, they don’t come back to their home church. Many just hang around the college town after graduation.

Before folks went to college, parents and churches did a better job of teaching Bible truths to their young folks .
We have become a bit lazy using Christian colleges as our backstop.

One last comment on “uncharitable” and then I will be willing to discuss with you when we connect at church.

I read your comment that you wished Cedarville closed. Perhaps you were using hyperbole or I misunderstood you

I can list several colleges that I think are basically educational charades … to name one Hyles Anderson. But I don’t wish them closed.

The conservative wing of the Republican party still stands for traditional values. That has all but vanished in the Democratic party in more recent elections. One could simply be an independent and vote for the individual. Nothing wrong with that in my mind. However, in a practical way either a republican or a democrat will be in the white house and the congress in the majority of cases.

Pastor Mike Harding

Steve,

you state

“When we hold our distinctives with the same certainty with which we hold the fundamentals of the faith then we will practice a greater degree of separation. When we hold our distinctives with conviction but with a lesser degree of certainty (particularly in areas of historical divergence) we can enjoy genuine fellowship and express biblical unity.”

I agree but would add that in these areas it is not as simple as they are right and I am right because we are convinced in our minds having researched it. In the doctrines of dispensationalism or covenentalism either we are right or wrong. In the mode of baptism it does not go multiple ways. The concern I have is that the younger generation is getting the impression (because of post modernity) that the scriptures can be approach in a non absolutest way. There is one meaning God intended and we are bound to seek that out and to teach it with passion and conviction. We are also ,as you point out, to recognize there are definitely different degrees of certainty due to our fallibility and the limited scriptures on certain subjects. When we deal with them, honesty demands, that we teach with humility and clarity on the degree of certainty that the bible allows. I also would like to highlight that this is not to say that all scriptures bears the same weight. The roles of husband and wife in scriptures is clear but does not bear the same weight on the gospel as the doctrine of Christ.

How does this apply to the discussion at hand? Faith made a call of separation based on teachings/ instruction of the scriptures that are not in the fundamentals area but that is not to say they have no grounds for separation.

Pastor Shane Belding

Victory Baptist Church Fort Frances Ontario Canada

Susan,

While it may be true that higher education is not a complete inoculation against ignorance, it is at least some pretty decent prophylaxis—if it is gained in an institution that actually values learning.

In principle, the local church is responsible for the preparation of its ministers. Indeed, a future pastor cannot get the necessary hands-on training in any other environment. Churches, however, are not prepared to provide all of the equipment that a minister should acquire.

At minimum, a pastor-bishop-elder needs to have mastered the tools of thought. The mission of the church, however, does not include instruction in grammar, rhetoric, and dialectic. Furthermore, most homes are ill-prepared to inculcate these skills. Mastery of the liberal arts is the single most important aspect of baccalaureate education (which is why the graduate receives a bachelor of arts). So important is it to preparation for ministry that the Puritans (who were strongly committed to local church mentoring) made it their business to establish colleges as quickly as they could.

Furthermore, a good pastor must possess significant exegetical skill. He must be able to function in the biblical languages. He must have a broad and sound understanding of the structure of the text of Scripture, and, increasingly, of the critical issues related to the biblical text. Lacking these skills, a minister will never be more than an echo.

If they are to minister well, pastors must also possess at least a modicum of theological sophistication. They must understand why they believe what they believe. They must perceive how the various components of the system of faith relate to one another and how they relate to lived Christianity. What is more, if a pastor is going to understand the doctrines that he says he believes, he also needs to know how those doctrines have been developed in the confrontation with error. For this reason and others, he needs a fair grasp of history.

This description does not begin to address all the needs of ministry. Today’s pastor has to be able to think about cultural issues. He has to be able to counsel increasingly-common problems that were virtually never encountered a generation ago. He has to be able to parry spiritual threats on the left hand and the right. We should not expect him to learn these things ad hoc, any more than we expect airline pilots to learn to fly jumbo jets by the seat of their pants.

What I am suggestion is that, contrary to some understandings of the ministry, a pastor ought to be a learned man. He will not gain his learning by accident. It requires concentrated, rigorous, sustained instruction. I do not know of a single church in which the pastoral staff is equipped to offer this kind of learning. The teachers must master these disciplines at a far higher level than their students.

I think I’m a modestly bright person who has managed to get a halfway decent education. Nevertheless, I could never give a young man all of the preparation that he needed for ministry. If I were his only teacher, he would be severely shortchanged. I don’t know of anyone who could do that job. It takes a team of teachers who are largely devoted to that task.

Can you think of a single church that is in a position to do this? The closest we come is churches like Fourth, Inter City, or Calvary, churches that have employed teachers who function along side the pastoral staff. These are local churches that operate seminaries, for the precise reason that, if their pastors had to teach all of the skills personally, they would never be able to provide the pastoring that the congregation needs.

But the seminaries rely upon students who have already mastered certain intellectual skills. That is why we require a bachelor’s degree in order to enter the program. Nobody I know of has received all the necessary learning from home schooling. Nobody I know of has received it from their church (even if their church had a school). Nor should they. God lays upon parents the duty to rear their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and He lays upon churches the responsibility to make disciples, but He nowhere holds them accountable for personally providing all the education that their children or members might require. That takes something like a college or a university. You can tear off the label if you’d like, but you’ll still end up with some comparable institution and program.

It’s not a question of either-or. Both universities and local churches are essential to training ministers (so are seminaries). We tried taking a shortcut a century ago with the Bible Institute movement. We have never really recovered. So, yes, there are specific reasons for which universities or comparable institutions are both appropriate and superior to the local church for certain aspects of preparation for ministry.

Kevin

[Barry L.] The expense for private liberal arts college is pretty steep nowadays, I know, I know, “I had to work my way through school”. But they aren’t making that much more per hour than you did 20-30 years ago and their college costs have quintupled.

There’s been a lot written of late as to why college costs are inflating faster than the economy as as whole.

On: Yes it was easier 40 years ago:

  • Yes … college cost less
  • Yes … there were manufacturing jobs and now that has somewhat dried up (I worked at a chemical company for 4 years while I was in college. It’s still there.
  • Yes … things cost less (one could buy a new VW Bug for $ 2,000)
  • No …. wages were much less … $ 1.25 per hour
  • My own childrens’ experience is contemporary.

On: The definition of University:

  • There perhaps is no authoritative definition of “University” but generally it means “a collection of colleges” (MW- think of of the word “universal”). To re-brand oneself from a Bible college to a University without really offering a broad spectrum of educational options is in my view disingenuous. If we disagree we will just have to leave it there.
  • And my original point was that Cedarville has offerings that Faith does not.

How to do a real disservice to our young people:

  • Guilt and group think them into thinking that they have to go to the school(s) their pastor or youth pastor directs them to!
  • Thinking the purpose of the schools is to finish them as Christians
  • Convincing them that their best option for a Christian spouse is at a Bible college
  • Ignoring the reality that regional accreditation matters
  • Laden them (or jointly they and their parents) with debt
  • Let them enter the job market after 4 years without an education that will provide them with a job

So I’m not prepared yet to make final statements until I have a few more private conversations. While I wait to complete those I think a few questions here are fair:

1. Which is more consistent with the practice and spirit of the teachings of Christ and the pattern of the NT Church - to withhold official partnership from a ministry even thought the only official stated reason for separation is the lack of a denominational tag? (some here will say “yes” some will say “no”)

2. Is this institutional leadership or rebellion? (In other words do you serve the churches or do the churches serve you? You are a Baptist institution right? So which churches influence your decision-making? I’m assuming board members represent significant constituency that in a sense you are responsible too?)

3. So ….. did the board agree with this, or is this a move by the administration without board involvement?

4. If the Board agrees with this is that saying something about your attitude toward the GARBC in general and specifically the authority of the council of 18? (especially in light of the recent decision by the GARBC council of 18 to allow churches GARBC status who do not have the word Baptist in their title).

5. The fact that you are making this decision now and it comes on the heals of the GARBC decision - are you making a statement about (further) antagonism towards the national GARBC?

6. Do you believe the majority of your constituency agree with the “Baptist only” policy? Would it matter if you believed the majority of your constituency disagreed with the policy?

7. Are you purposefully trying to separate yourself from the main of the GARBC?

8. What is your view towards the “Baptist-Bride” or “Landmarkest” cults in this country?

So without making any statements as to my personal opinion here - these might be a few of the questions one might ask.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Jim,

By no means do I wish for Cedarville to close. What I wish is for Cedarville to be reformed. With a small “r”.

In fact, I feel such goodwill toward Cedarville University that I here and now offer to assume the presidency and to give the school the guidance that it needs in order to return to a fully biblical position. I will be able to assume my duties at the beginning of the academic year in July.

(I have a better chance of winning the lottery.)

Kevin

Is the procedure you describe what Paul did with Timothy and Titus? Was one of the requirements of ministry to “master the tools of thought” and receive “instruction in grammar, rhetoric, and dialectic”? It makes me ask “When is good enough, good enough?” IOW, at what point is one ‘fully equipped’ for ministry?

I say “Never”, for obvious reasons, at least they are obvious to me. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a standard, but I think we have to be careful about going too far outside a Biblical standard.

I agree that “a good pastor must possess significant exegetical skill. He must be able to function in the biblical languages. He must have a broad and sound understanding of the structure of the text of Scripture, and, increasingly, of the critical issues related to the biblical text.

I also agree that “They must understand why they believe what they believe. They must perceive how the various components of the system of faith relate to one another and how they relate to lived Christianity…. he also needs to know how those doctrines have been developed in the confrontation with error… he needs a fair grasp of history.

What I don’t understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to ‘duplicate’ themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.

Before the printing press, the only way to communicate knowledge was orally and with rare and precious writing on fairly fragile parchments/papyrus etc… With the availability of books for the masses, we long ago stopped being confined to this method of communicating and learning. So men who wish to become educated do not have to gather en masse in order to acquire knowledge from ‘the best theological minds’.

We also seem to operate as if every man who desires to be a minister should immediately be granted training thereto. Don’t get me wrong- I think every person should become as learned in the Word as they possibly can with every means at their disposal. But to train specifically for ministry? Seminaries are rubber stamping hundreds of young men who are simply not qualified to pastor, for various reasons. They may have obeyed the rules and been on the honor roll every semester, and that’s just peachy. Who grades them on the fruits of the Spirit? Where are the checks and balances if young men are training outside of a local church?

For just a minute, let’s pretend that every pastor in America has 2 or 3 young men in their church who 1) desire to be ministers 2) continually exhibit the qualifications- why is this seen as an insurmountable task? The pastor shouldn’t be the only person in a church qualified to provide such training. Aren’t the faithful men of the church able to contribute to the process?

Not to be a reductionist, but are we saying that 1) pastors cannot duplicate themselves 2) there aren’t enough mature, faithful men in the average church to train the young men in their midst with all the means we have at our disposal?

The command is to train as one has been trained. (2 Tim. 2:2) I’m not arguing for the immediate dismantling of all seminaries everywhere in the universe. I do believe, however, that to a large degree the church has yet again abdicated a responsibility given primarily to the local body. Thus we have all these strange and awkward tensions that cause division and confusion, not to mention a veritable army of schmoes who have the moral fiber of a Fruit Roll-Up and couldn’t light a theological candle with a blowtorch- but they have a seminary degree, by George.

Excuse me, I typed that with my cynical hand.

[Susan R]

What I don’t understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to ‘duplicate’ themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.


Susan,

Let me ask in return, would your local family physician — while maintaining his current practice — have time and opportunity to train two or three young docs for that same role, while also perhaps training a young heart surgeon in his spare time?

Or is ministry not on this same level because, “It’s just for church…”?

Obviously, the model you are suggesting would presume that the pastor in question would start out by being an A+ student in every discipline. Even then, since he could not possibly keep up with “the literature,” his students would just be parroting the information he had learned in whatever classes he took X number of years ago…

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

What I don’t understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to ‘duplicate’ themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.

Because for one reason, being “able to function in the biblical languages” is a “fer piece” (original language for some) from being able to teach someone else how to function in the biblical language. Not to mention the time necessary to preach 2-4 times a week (using biblical languages), perform the administrative functions of the church, plan, pray, shepherd, and the like, doesn’t leave the requisite time to teach others how to use the biblical languages. It quite often doesn’t leave much time to use them yourself.

There is a lot that pastors “on the job” can teach young hopeful pastors. In fact, there is probably some that only pastors on the job can teach young hopeful pastors. A guy who has spent 10-20 years in the classroom may not be the best equipped to teach how to sit beside the bed of a dying woman with her family surrounding the bed. Knowing how to parse Greek or Hebrew won’t help a lot there. A church history prof may know a lot but may not be able to give help on how to navigate the differing views in a deacon’s meeting. Or how to move someone out of teaching role without having them leave the church. (In fact, does anyone know how to do that?)

But alas, we are probably a bit off topic.

Kevin, wasn’t this move by Cedarville a move (however slight) back towards the right? I read some people complaining about the fundamentalist tendencies, and I didn’t get the impression they meant that you were next in line for the presidency. If I recall correctly, several times over the past decade there were a sort of upheaval at Cedarville. Can you comment more intelligently on that? (Not more intelligently than your recent post, but more intelligently than me, with my limited knowledge.)

[Kevin T. Bauder]

In fact, I feel such goodwill toward Cedarville University that I here and now offer to assume the presidency and to give the school the guidance that it needs in order to return to a fully biblical position. I will be able to assume my duties at the beginning of the academic year in July.

(I have a better chance of winning the lottery.)

I think Lou Martuneac would have won a different kind of lottery if that took place… :D

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

[Kevin T. Bauder]

Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea. I know you work for a school that needs young preachers to buy their credibility in certain circles, but wow. Your elitism smacks of such arrogance. Check yourself Kevin.

Did John Bunyan settle for an ignorant ministry? I will go out on a limb and say his ignorant ministry was used beyond your imagination.

You want an alternative to a college and university? How about the church, the institution God actually set up to propagate His word.

Eph 4:11-12

And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,

If pastors aren’t training people in the work of ministry, they are failing.

Churches outsourcing their responsibilities to schools is such a sad commentary on the church. On a related note, every time a church has to go outside of itself for their next pastor, they are proving their own failure at training up men as elders.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

[Jim]

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I’m not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence? If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed. So much for advancing the church. Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn’t have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out. God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it. The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time. If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job. Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Having taught in various capacities, I think the assumption that one must be physically present during much of the process is strange. But then I don’t view teaching as the filling of a bucket from my own personal stock either. As a homeschooler, I’ve coached my kids to be self-motivated and self-directed. I provide them with quality resources, and they do most of the work themselves. I have one kid learning the piano, two learning the guitar, and the only think I can do on a musical instrument is play the theme to My Three Sons on the clarinet. I also provide them with opportunities to practice what they’ve learned with a bit of guidance, and with the cooperation of others in areas of specialized knowledge.

I don’t see the medical profession as an apt comparison, (although there is that thing called an internship) especially when I’m not saying that seminaries shouldn’t exist at all, but that 4-6 years spent in classrooms under several professors who may have no idea how many of the young men in their classrooms are actually qualified to be ministers, and for whom they seem to neither bear nor require accountability or responsibility doesn’t exactly resonate with sound doctrine in and of itself. I also find seminaries founded and acting outside the authority of the local church, or a seminary superseding the authority of the local church, as… I think the technical term is wonky.

And I still haven’t heard a ‘Biblical’ argument for the necessity or superiority of the seminary as opposed to mentoring by pastors and elders in a local church.

Obviously, the model you are suggesting would presume that the pastor in question would start out by being an A+ student in every discipline. Even then, since he could not possibly keep up with “the literature,” his students would just be parroting the information he had learned in whatever classes he took X number of years ago…

I could have SO much fun with that paragraph.

Bro. Larry- You point out one of the most important reasons that seminary education can only take one so far on the path of ministry, and IMO it can never replace time spent at the side of good pastor.

I have great respect for learned men and for a depth of knowledge acquired by intense studying, but isn’t it interesting that the qualifications for ministry in Scripture focus on character issues and not education? That the ministry training relationships described in detail in Scripture are those of under-the-wing student/mentor?

As for Cedarville, there is quite a bit of speculation going on about what various events actually mean, and they’ve requested that folks don’t try to read too much into this and that. But let’s face it- schools have a bottom line, and decisions will be made that are not solely concerned with Scriptural grounds, but with an eye on organizational policies and legalities and red tape and balance-carried-forward column. Or these schools wouldn’t exist.

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea.

Unfortunately, we are not shocked at your language.

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn’t have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out. God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it. The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time. If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job. Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

First, time is not the only reason. Expertise is another, probably more primary, reason.

Second, many seminaries are functions of a local church (such as Detroit), and carry out these things in this way.

Third, the “single pastor model” has already been solidly established as an acceptable (though perhaps not ideal) model. To say that no church is every said to have only one elder is not really to say much at all, since the number of examples is small, and there is no clear evidence about how elders worked in church designated by cities. So while plurality may be good and even preferable, it not mandated by the Bible, as we can see by reading the Bible and noticing the lack of mandate for it.

Fourth, this has nothing to do with fidelity to the truth. But since you bring it up, 1 Tim 5:1 might be a verse worth some time in meditation.

[James K]

[Jim]

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I’m not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence? If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed. So much for advancing the church. Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

James K., my view is not based on biblical evidence and it has flaws.

I see that Pastors need (by way of training):

  • Sufficient education (and I am thinking beyond a Bachelor’s degree) to prove their academic mettle. Why: Because, at least in the US, approximately 30% have a Bachelor’s degree.
  • Ability and training in the languages. Greek the very least. Many secular colleges also offer Greek.
  • Training in history broadly and Church history specifically
  • Ecclesiastical training with an emphasis on the doctrinal convictions of one’s denomination
  • Age … (comes with time). I have a view that few 28 year olds are hardly “elders”. Yes we are not to “despise [their] youth” but honestly many men in their late 20’s are still into video games and other foolish things. I won’t follow a goofy guy!
  • Experience: And I don’t mean a church internship. I mean life-experience: Marriage … parenting … paying bills … balancing a budget … fender-benders … the flu … etc …
  • Apprenticeship: One on one working with pastors and deacons
  • Having a trade of some kind would be helpful for many men because while no one aspires to be bi-vocational, having to find a job to pay bills often happens
  • Seminary fails in these areas: Aging, experience, and apprenticeship. Additionally a seminary degree does not make one a leader. Seminary can’t do that. One failure of the seminary system is that they think they can make the man … but they can only make the academic-man!

Bro. Larry- You point out one of the most important reasons that seminary education can only take one so far on the path of ministry, and IMO it can never replace time spent at the side of good pastor.

I completely agree. I don’t think we should cast it as either/or.

I have great respect for learned men and for a depth of knowledge acquired by intense studying, but isn’t it interesting that the qualifications for ministry in Scripture focus on character issues and not education? That the ministry training relationships described in detail in Scripture are those of under-the-wing student/mentor?

I am not sure that “character vs. education” is a biblical dichotomy. The NT seems to indicate both. 1 Tim talks about studying to be approved, study so that your profiting may appear to all, being able to teach (which is both skill and knowledge), etc. So both are necessary.

As far as self-directed vs. physically present, again, probably both/and is the way to go. I doubt most people will become proficient in biblical languages simply by reading a text. Some may. But most will not. Plus, one of the greatest benefits of education (which is why I don’t like distance ed) is the interpersonal relationships that develop both in the classroom, the library, the lounge, the hallways, etc. So yes, one can learn a lot of his own, but that book will never make a phone call to check on you. It won’t cry with you, or rejoice. And it won’t tell you you got something wrong. And it won’t tell you what the books that would take you twenty years to read say. But a good seminary prof who has spent twenty or forty years reading them will.

I don’t have a problem farming out certain areas of specialized knowledge. Even as a home educator, I do that myself with DVDs, online courses, and the occasional tutor. I think the years spend in seminary classrooms, however, as inefficient, and often ineffective, in the sense of practical application and guided practice, and in the sense of verifying other important qualities of ministers, such as the aforementioned 1 Tim. 3 and the fruits of the Spirit.

And here I was today correcting my son for long sentences with lots of commas. LOL!

I tend to find myself in agreement with a lot of what you say, but I really think your views on the need for a Seminary education show a lack of understanding of the pastoral ministry and its requirements. The pastors that I served under while working at three different churches in various staff roles, both paid and non-paid, were very good men who taught me much about pastoral ministry. If that is the role that the church should be serving to those going in to vocational ministry then I agree. My learning experience in each of those situations has somewhat shaped my opinion that an undergraduate degree in any ministerial bachelors is a complete waste of time. I learned more about ministry working in a church than sitting through waste of time classes at BJU like youth/children’s ministry etc. Also, the amount of Bible Knowledge I had received growing up in a solid church made the bachelor’s level Bible classes seem pretty basic. So far, I know I sound like I am making your point for you.

That being said, however, Seminary was an entirely different matter, and the basic Master of Divinity that should be and almost everywhere outside of IFB circles is considered the basic requirement for pastoral ministry, was an amazing learning experience that gave me the educational base needed to pastor (in my case as a Chaplain). As I said, my pastors were great men, who I respect, but none of them was equipped with enough knowledge on their own to teach me all I needed to know in the realm of apologetics, hermeneutics, theology, ethics, biblical languages, etc. I needed all of that educational background to be able to do the same thing that each of them knew how to do, some better than others, which was study the Bible on their own and determine its message and theological positions and teachings and then take that study and be able to effectively translate that into Biblical messages that would build up a church member’s knowledge of Christ, knowledge of the Scripture and better enable that Christian to serve in the body of Christ. It’s not as simple as being able to prepare a Bible study or sermon, although every time I preach a sermon the people listening are reaping the benefit of every professor who taught me how to “rightly divide the Word of Truth”. If a pastor or even a group of elders, although most churches are not large enough to have more than a couple paid pastors/elders, were to teach all that Seminary provides, it would become of full time job and actual preaching and teaching of the Word of God to the rest of the church would not happen, not to mention the “pastoral ministry” - hospital visitation, community outreach etc.

While we have formalized the process to conform to an academic standard that has been accepted and changing for hundreds of years, that doesn’t mean that it necessarily occur outside of the local church. As has already been mentioned Detroit Seminary is an extension of a local church, but also has a solid academic standing. There are plenty of examples you can find where that is not the case, and there are many large seminaries that are not really connected to any particular local church or even denomination. I personally don’t find that to be a problem, but for those who do, there are options. As a Southern Baptist, I consider my Seminary, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary to be representing and accountable to thousands of local churches who support the Seminary through Cooperative program gifts and vote on the trustees at the Southern Baptist Convention. I know it is probably not what you had in mind for local church control, but I do not find it unbiblical for a group of local churches, such as the SBC, to have a Seminary that reflects a consensus of doctrine if not a specific church’s.

As to the question of unqualified people in Seminary studying for the ministry. In my opinion, judging whether a person is qualified for ministry is the role strictly for the local church. The Seminary and professors were there to train me academically to properly exposit the Bible and apply it to modern situations, however, my local church in Greenville SC held an ordination council where they questioned me on doctrinal and practical issues and my specific call to ministry and determined that it was their consensus that I was fit for ministry and ordained me to that end. The Seminary had nothing to do with that other than giving me a strong foundation to be better prepared to answer some of their questions.

In my opinion this has gotten off topic. The real question is whether it is ok for a Christian institution to compromise biblical standards to grow their university. The same question could be asked of churches today too. The biblical answer is clearly, no. One college, Cedarville, has while Faith has decided not to. If you judge a universities success by size and amount of majors offered, then the most godly churches must also be the biggest ones with the most programs to offer.

Kudos to Ben for his answer in post no. 47, and thanks for your service to our country! :)

To get back closer to the topic at hand, I would add that FBTS gave me the same type of academic experience that Ben describes. It was not in any way, shape, form or fashion a repeat of Bible college. I already had a tremendous foundation of Biblical knowledge, going back to kindergarten in my Lutheran grade school, and still learned more in seminary than I can begin to describe.

Which brings me back to Susan’s posts: I respect your thoughts a lot Susan, and truly have great admiration for good homeschooling!! However, seminary ain’t homeschool. Historically, the M.Div. program has always been compared to medical school and (probably more aptly) law school.

Certainly there are many things that cannot be learned in seminary; in our IFB circles, however, that point has probably been overemphasized. There are a lot more things that have to be learned in seminary.

Which, by the way, is why I am also opposed to the contemporary trend of finding ways to (let me be charitable) streamline seminary to make it shorter, more practical, etc.

FBTS offered me a traditional theological education for which I shall always be grateful to God.

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

I think the years spend in seminary classrooms, however, as inefficient, and often ineffective, in the sense of practical application and guided practice, and in the sense of verifying other important qualities of ministers, such as the aforementioned 1 Tim. 3 and the fruits of the Spirit.

And you know this how? By personal experience? By what?

I found the years spent in seminary classrooms to be invaluable training for ministry. And having been in vocational ministry on both sides of seminary, I know the difference not because I have thought about it or read about, but because I lived it.

And we are off topic here a bit to be sure.

[Jim]

[James K]

[Jim]

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I’m not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence? If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed. So much for advancing the church. Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

James K., my view is not based on biblical evidence and it has flaws.

I see that Pastors need (by way of training):

  • Sufficient education (and I am thinking beyond a Bachelor’s degree) to prove their academic mettle. Why: Because, at least in the US, approximately 30% have a Bachelor’s degree.
  • Ability and training in the languages. Greek the very least. Many secular colleges also offer Greek.
  • Training in history broadly and Church history specifically
  • Ecclesiastical training with an emphasis on the doctrinal convictions of one’s denomination
  • Age … (comes with time). I have a view that few 28 year olds are hardly “elders”. Yes we are not to “despise [their] youth” but honestly many men in their late 20’s are still into video games and other foolish things. I won’t follow a goofy guy!
  • Experience: And I don’t mean a church internship. I mean life-experience: Marriage … parenting … paying bills … balancing a budget … fender-benders … the flu … etc …
  • Apprenticeship: One on one working with pastors and deacons
  • Having a trade of some kind would be helpful for many men because while no one aspires to be bi-vocational, having to find a job to pay bills often happens
  • Seminary fails in these areas: Aging, experience, and apprenticeship. Additionally a seminary degree does not make one a leader. Seminary can’t do that. One failure of the seminary system is that they think they can make the man … but they can only make the academic-man!

Frankly Jim, part of the problem is that what you are saying is not based on the Bible. It is at best a pragmatic solution for churches who don’t follow the Biblical paradigm. We render the commands of God of no effect that way. We take what he actually commanded pastors to do and given them nonessential stuff to do thus limiting their time to obey God. How is that different than Jesus’ rebuke of the pharisaical handling God’s word?

Academic mettle is a non issue and not necessary. What matters is whether a person knows the Scripture and believes what God has said. That man will be a faithful pastor. Remember who Jesus recruited as his disciples.

Again, I study the languages, but this is not essential (despite the college profs who all insist it is). Bunyan didn’t know greek either.

You are calling church history a need? Really?

One does not need to learn the denomination, only the scripture. Too many get caught up in their denomination rather than Scripture as it is.

I agree there must be maturity, but age doesn’t determine that, sadly. Too many older men are absolute fools on their own issues. It isn’t video games (probably), but it might be money or counseling.

This is close to an actual requirement, managing one’s household.

The biblical model is to have younger men within the church to learn from the older men.

Meh, maybe, maybe not. Probably a good idea, but not a need.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

I thought so.

Kevin