Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET
Elizabeth Vargas’ Yearlong Investigation Into The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, Airs On “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET Try to imagine the pain and humiliation of a teenage girl, just 15 years old, who says she was forced to stand in front of a New Hampshire church congregation and confess her “sin” of being pregnant. She says not only was she forced to confess her pregnancy, but also to ask for their forgiveness – with no mention of the man she says sexually abused her. After all, she says, the pastor told her it’s better than being stoned to death as the bible describes. That is what Tina Anderson alleged happened to her at her ultra conservative Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB, Church. The IFB has thousands of congregations across the country, but many people have never heard of it. That was, until another woman, Jocelyn Zichterman, began a public campaign – armed with nothing but a computer and memories of her own alleged abuse that she says church beliefs can foster. And survivors are now coming out of the woodwork, to say she’s not alone.
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I have a question: How is it possible to be “IN the IFB”? Isn’t it by very definition “independant”? Thus, I can disagree with how another Independant church does things and not say that WE need to work on things because there isn’t a WE. I can say that certain pastors are sinful or stupid and not be embarrassed that I am “one of them” because we’re all independant. I am not them, we just believe the same way on many things. I take the labels without taking the Grouping.
Is that too naive?
Is that too naive?
It does not seem profitable to debate the situation at Trinity right now. There are just too many unaswered questions that need to be answered before anyone outside of the situation could arrive at a right conclusion. It is going to take some wise third-party leadership and possibly a judge and jury before there is the clarity needed to reach conclusions here. There’s enough info to be concerned about some things, even broken-hearted about some things, but more clarity is needed to reach final conclusions if you ask me.
What we do know from the 20/20 show is that IFB’s have been convicted of crimes of sexual abuse. My heart breaks for Rachel who was interviewed on the show. We also know that there are many more of these convictions out there - prevalent enough that it does stain the whole movement. We also know from the 20/20 show and the internet is that there are too many preachers teaching some really bad stuff about child discipline, females, and other stuff. I have heard a lot of garbage from Hammond but those clips of Schaap saying his garbage about women makes me sick. When men like David Doran confront the IFB movement for its toleration of what goes on in Hammond, he gets attacked instead of Schaap getting confronted. Go figure.
Just this morning, I was called to one of our local hospitals to visit an unchurched, 85 year old woman who is battling lung cancer. The first thing she wanted to discuss when I arrived in the room was the Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Churches that the 20/20 show talked about last night. She was up most of the night, deeply troubled by what she watched on the tv.
I am just not sure that any church can accurately communicate Christ to a community with the name “Independent, Fundamental, Baptist” anymore.
Interdependent, Bible-believing Churches who recognize they are not islands unto themselves all of the sudden has a great appeal to me.
What we do know from the 20/20 show is that IFB’s have been convicted of crimes of sexual abuse. My heart breaks for Rachel who was interviewed on the show. We also know that there are many more of these convictions out there - prevalent enough that it does stain the whole movement. We also know from the 20/20 show and the internet is that there are too many preachers teaching some really bad stuff about child discipline, females, and other stuff. I have heard a lot of garbage from Hammond but those clips of Schaap saying his garbage about women makes me sick. When men like David Doran confront the IFB movement for its toleration of what goes on in Hammond, he gets attacked instead of Schaap getting confronted. Go figure.
Just this morning, I was called to one of our local hospitals to visit an unchurched, 85 year old woman who is battling lung cancer. The first thing she wanted to discuss when I arrived in the room was the Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Churches that the 20/20 show talked about last night. She was up most of the night, deeply troubled by what she watched on the tv.
I am just not sure that any church can accurately communicate Christ to a community with the name “Independent, Fundamental, Baptist” anymore.
Interdependent, Bible-believing Churches who recognize they are not islands unto themselves all of the sudden has a great appeal to me.
[Bob Nutzhorn][Aaron Blumer] It appears though, that he still believes they were dating. Which is not impossible.Are you saying it is not impossible that they were dating, or that it is not impossible that he thinks they were dating?
Well, let’s consider a little history. Go back, say, a hundred years, maybe 150. From what I remember reading, it was not unusual for 15 year olds to court and marry in those days.
Most scholars believe women were given in marriage as young as 12 or 13 in Roman times.
So all those early marriages would be full of rape, I suppose? Some people think so (but they tend to be social scientists with very anti-Christian intellectual commitments.) If we say categorically that a teen cannot consent, it would mean all of those marriages were immoral.
(I have no doubt that some of them were!)
It’s probably true that rape laws have tended to correlate somewhat with marriageable age laws.
My point is that the idea that unique individuals’ ability to consent exactly follows the line drawn by our laws is a bit simplistic. These ways of thinking are pretty new.
Of course, I can’t say whether Tina herself was capable of consent. I don’t know her or the circumstances well enough to judge that.
(I believe Phelps sincerely believes that was the nature of their relationship.)
But I do not think we can categorically say that all 15 or 16 yr olds are incapable of consent under all circumstances. We do not have any biblical reason to think so. And, given the history of what has been considered “marrying age,” I’m skeptical.
But as I said earlier, I think the law has to draw a line somewhere and it’s in about the best place it can be. But we do not have to deal with spiritual issues in lockstep with the legal issues.
Legal categories are not spiritual categories.
Sociological categories are not biblical categories (often they are quite at odds with biblical ones)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
This thread will close soon.
We all need a rest and a good bit of Philippians 4:8 therapy.
I do think these things need to be thought about, but doing so for long periods of time is toxic to the soul. (If you’re normally a joyful person, you know exactly what I mean by that. You can almost taste it.)
Of course, some will characterize closing the thread as contributing to the vast IFB coverup, protecting the guilty, etc. But if I’ve learned anything in all this, it’s that there’s no pleasing some people.
I’d probably have to flay myself alive while chanting “all independent fundamental baptists are pure evil… all independent baptist fundamentalists are pure evil… I renounce them… I curse them… I ..”
Well, you get the idea. That might be good enough (as long as I also douse myself w/gas and light it up as a grand finale).
(For the hyperbole challenged, I do not actually think I’d have to kill myself to make the anti-IFBs happy.. it would be enough if I joined their group and publicly accused a few people and frequently broad brushed all the colleges as founts of corruption)
Anyway, an hour or two more will probably about do it.
We all need a rest and a good bit of Philippians 4:8 therapy.
I do think these things need to be thought about, but doing so for long periods of time is toxic to the soul. (If you’re normally a joyful person, you know exactly what I mean by that. You can almost taste it.)
Of course, some will characterize closing the thread as contributing to the vast IFB coverup, protecting the guilty, etc. But if I’ve learned anything in all this, it’s that there’s no pleasing some people.
I’d probably have to flay myself alive while chanting “all independent fundamental baptists are pure evil… all independent baptist fundamentalists are pure evil… I renounce them… I curse them… I ..”
Well, you get the idea. That might be good enough (as long as I also douse myself w/gas and light it up as a grand finale).
(For the hyperbole challenged, I do not actually think I’d have to kill myself to make the anti-IFBs happy.. it would be enough if I joined their group and publicly accused a few people and frequently broad brushed all the colleges as founts of corruption)
Anyway, an hour or two more will probably about do it.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Jay C.] I don’t understand why if a fifteen year old decides to date or sleep with a sixteen year old, it’s OK, but if she sleeps with a 38 year old, then she’s free from blame.Jay,
It’s about disproportionate power. I hope to be posting on Monday or Tuesday to begin a discussion of this from a Biblical perspective. It is the necessary underpinning to make sure we can say that Child Molestation is a sin itself, not just because of the fornication/adultery implicit in it.
Mike D
[Aaron Blumer] But I do not think we can categorically say that all 15 or 16 yr olds are incapable of consent under all circumstances. We do not have any biblical reason to think so. And, given the history of what has been considered “marrying age,” I’m skeptical.Aaron, you identify the key difficulty here. It’s clear to me (and perhaps correct too) based on what the two individuals were made to confess to in the church service at Trinity that Pastor Phelps shares some of your misgivings. Can we Biblically insist that a child molester confess the “sin” of molestation, or is it, Biblically, just fornication/adultery, depending on the marriage state of the person who molests?
But as I said earlier, I think the law has to draw a line somewhere and it’s in about the best place it can be. But we do not have to deal with spiritual issues in lockstep with the legal issues.
Legal categories are not spiritual categories.
I am pulling together a lengthy post I hope to put up Monday or Tuesday (in another thread, apparently). I will argue that we can say that molesting a child constitutes a sin distinct from the purely sexual aspect. You are correct in saying that we musn’t confuse the legal and spiritual categories. A church could (and should) call the police about the legal matter, deal with the molester’s privileges in the church administratively, and disicpline the sin as 3 distinct issues. But I believe we can prove Scripturally that we can prove a Biblical concept of molestation as sin in and of itself, and will post about this after the weekend and post-weekend cleanup.
They either deliberately or inadvertently blurred the line on certain things.
1). There is no IFB Church in the national sense. Though we embrace the term “movement”, Bob Bixby is probably right to call it a collective. But 20/20 could have lost an hour just trying to explain the complex sociological bond that holds the IFB churches together. Their stab at it with reference to the shared colleges IFB people attend hints at the larger reality. But, in all fairness, that was not their story’s focus.
2). The issue of the bungled or obstructed police investigation was left hanging. I suspect they could have done a whole new story on how this investigation never finished until external pressures were applied. But, in all fairness, that was not their story’s focus.
3). The issue of whether or not Tina Anderson carried on some kind of “dating relationship” with her rapist was also not dealt with satisfactorily, left in a “she said/they said” status. But, that was not their story – nor did it need to be dealt with to support the story. Tina at that age was NOT able to judge the consequences if she was involved in such a relationship to any extent willingly. In the eyes of the law, it is the adult’s responsibility to put sharp limits on the nature of a relationship to a minor – not the minor’s.
What they did accomplish was this: they told the story they set out to do:
1). There is a group of churches where some of the adherents abuse children, and are encouraged to do so in the name of discipline. This is real, even if it is most extreme ends of the movement. I’ve heard the sermons. I’ve seen the books. If you’ve been around long enough, you’ve worried about someone in your church who believes this stuff – or you go to a church that teaches it.
2). This same group of churches seems to have a disproportionate cluster of sexual abuse events against children, for whatever reason.
3). There are significant instances in which the reaction of said churches has been inappropriate when they are made aware of the sexual and physical abuses.
The story they told at that level is absolutely accurate, and factual. The IFB doesn’t need a name change (with no insult to Joe, who I know abhors this behavior as much as we all do). The IFB needs to take a long, hard look at the attitudes, actions, and motivations that produce the above behavior. They need to look at the Scriptures carefully. Some of them need to repent. The movement as a whole should not hesitate to use language of repentance in dealing with this issue, for as a whole, we have failed. I was inadequately prepared to deal with this issue by all of my training and reading from within the movement. I have dealt with it sub-optimally in the past (though the police have ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been my first call). We have been slow to move into the modern era on this. We are like the 1930’s family trying to cover for the embarrassing uncle who goes after his nieces. I know we’re conservative, but…wow.
As I watched this piece, everything fell into place. All the different versions of the stories we hear (Tina was disciplined/she wasn’t; the girl was made to publicly confess/she wasn’t; the pastor made the girl move out of state/no, it was the family’s decision) all make perfect sense when you consider the powerful pastor philosophy of IFB churches. Pastors in the IFB, you control the reality of your people. They spend hours in your world, influenced by your thinking and surrounded by others who share that thinking. You have immense power. In some churches, you are idolized. You can set moods and tones unintentionally. You can let your attitude bleed over into a situation and sway people, even if you think you are leaving them several options. Be aware. That’s a lot of power for any one man. There are many who will meekly nod their head and agree to what you advise, when they know more about the situation than you do; they will then resent your leadership later.
I have much more to say in posts early next week, about the nature of how Trinity and Pastor Phelps dealt with this, what the Old Testament Law has to say that can inform our views on such matters, Feminist philosophy vs. Bible truth on molestation, and what should drive us philosophically in church discipline situations, but I don’t want to dilute my message by getting into an attack/defend Pastor Phelps debate now.
For those of you who still don’t believe the movement has a problem, I invite you to look around at the movement as a whole. I first became aware of the problem a few years ago when I went back and Googled the names of my old classmates and dorm mates from my 1 year at Hyles-Anderson, as well as the names of leadership. A room-mate, a teacher, and numerous other associates are all in prison due to things like this. It’s possible one of my other teachers should be in prison, but the case has not been made. In several cases, FBC Hammond actively covered up their crimes. I tearfully shared this with my congregation. They know about my time spent in the most abusive and hard-hearted form of Fundamentalism, but they too shared my shock. They know why we are so careful in how we frame answers to the question, “Are you a Fundamental church?” This is just one example of why.
And we need to fix this.
Think of millstones. And if you’re not the one who would have bubbles rising to the surface while you drown, remember how angry these things make our Lord. I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of His ire for failing to prevent the abuse of a child. You shouldn’t want it either.
1). There is no IFB Church in the national sense. Though we embrace the term “movement”, Bob Bixby is probably right to call it a collective. But 20/20 could have lost an hour just trying to explain the complex sociological bond that holds the IFB churches together. Their stab at it with reference to the shared colleges IFB people attend hints at the larger reality. But, in all fairness, that was not their story’s focus.
2). The issue of the bungled or obstructed police investigation was left hanging. I suspect they could have done a whole new story on how this investigation never finished until external pressures were applied. But, in all fairness, that was not their story’s focus.
3). The issue of whether or not Tina Anderson carried on some kind of “dating relationship” with her rapist was also not dealt with satisfactorily, left in a “she said/they said” status. But, that was not their story – nor did it need to be dealt with to support the story. Tina at that age was NOT able to judge the consequences if she was involved in such a relationship to any extent willingly. In the eyes of the law, it is the adult’s responsibility to put sharp limits on the nature of a relationship to a minor – not the minor’s.
What they did accomplish was this: they told the story they set out to do:
1). There is a group of churches where some of the adherents abuse children, and are encouraged to do so in the name of discipline. This is real, even if it is most extreme ends of the movement. I’ve heard the sermons. I’ve seen the books. If you’ve been around long enough, you’ve worried about someone in your church who believes this stuff – or you go to a church that teaches it.
2). This same group of churches seems to have a disproportionate cluster of sexual abuse events against children, for whatever reason.
3). There are significant instances in which the reaction of said churches has been inappropriate when they are made aware of the sexual and physical abuses.
The story they told at that level is absolutely accurate, and factual. The IFB doesn’t need a name change (with no insult to Joe, who I know abhors this behavior as much as we all do). The IFB needs to take a long, hard look at the attitudes, actions, and motivations that produce the above behavior. They need to look at the Scriptures carefully. Some of them need to repent. The movement as a whole should not hesitate to use language of repentance in dealing with this issue, for as a whole, we have failed. I was inadequately prepared to deal with this issue by all of my training and reading from within the movement. I have dealt with it sub-optimally in the past (though the police have ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been my first call). We have been slow to move into the modern era on this. We are like the 1930’s family trying to cover for the embarrassing uncle who goes after his nieces. I know we’re conservative, but…wow.
As I watched this piece, everything fell into place. All the different versions of the stories we hear (Tina was disciplined/she wasn’t; the girl was made to publicly confess/she wasn’t; the pastor made the girl move out of state/no, it was the family’s decision) all make perfect sense when you consider the powerful pastor philosophy of IFB churches. Pastors in the IFB, you control the reality of your people. They spend hours in your world, influenced by your thinking and surrounded by others who share that thinking. You have immense power. In some churches, you are idolized. You can set moods and tones unintentionally. You can let your attitude bleed over into a situation and sway people, even if you think you are leaving them several options. Be aware. That’s a lot of power for any one man. There are many who will meekly nod their head and agree to what you advise, when they know more about the situation than you do; they will then resent your leadership later.
I have much more to say in posts early next week, about the nature of how Trinity and Pastor Phelps dealt with this, what the Old Testament Law has to say that can inform our views on such matters, Feminist philosophy vs. Bible truth on molestation, and what should drive us philosophically in church discipline situations, but I don’t want to dilute my message by getting into an attack/defend Pastor Phelps debate now.
For those of you who still don’t believe the movement has a problem, I invite you to look around at the movement as a whole. I first became aware of the problem a few years ago when I went back and Googled the names of my old classmates and dorm mates from my 1 year at Hyles-Anderson, as well as the names of leadership. A room-mate, a teacher, and numerous other associates are all in prison due to things like this. It’s possible one of my other teachers should be in prison, but the case has not been made. In several cases, FBC Hammond actively covered up their crimes. I tearfully shared this with my congregation. They know about my time spent in the most abusive and hard-hearted form of Fundamentalism, but they too shared my shock. They know why we are so careful in how we frame answers to the question, “Are you a Fundamental church?” This is just one example of why.
And we need to fix this.
Think of millstones. And if you’re not the one who would have bubbles rising to the surface while you drown, remember how angry these things make our Lord. I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of His ire for failing to prevent the abuse of a child. You shouldn’t want it either.
[Rachel L.]I’d never heard that Tina might be sixteen until this morningBut you heard it from an incredibly un-reliable source. If this is the first time you heard it (and the police are moving forward with something that would indicate statutory rape), then why don’t you doubt it given the info stacked against it?
So the guy in the middle of this is ‘incredibly unreliable’? Why is that, since so many are in a rush to allege that he did indeed do all sorts of nefarious things and burn him at the stake for not doing it? Are we too invested in the story to pay attention to facts?
I think there’s way too much speculation from too many people with their own agendas to believe anything other than what the witnesses themselves testify to. It sounds like Phelps is now able to testify, and I find his testimony credible. I’ll watch 20/20 later on, and maybe that will fill in the blanks or sway my mind. But until then, this is becoming “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”.
Scriptural passages apply here for all of this internet gossip, and I will close by quoting them:
[Proverbs 11] 12 Whoever belittles his neighbor lacks sense, but a man of understanding remains silent.
13 Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets, but he who is trustworthy in spirit keeps a thing covered.
[Proverbs 16] 28 A dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisperer separates close friends.Finally, although there are no widows in this particular discussion, there’s:
[I Tim. 5:11]…they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t.
So until then, there’s really nothing more to say for anyone. The legal system will work though this, and then God will judge all of us accordingly.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Bice hit it on the head. The crime was done when she was 15 and it was discovered she was pregnant when she was 16. Pretty obvious to find that out.
Mike,
I loved your insight and encouragment for us to be careful. I look forward to reading your thread next week.
I won’t comment anymore on tonight, so it will probably be closed by the time I am back. That is ok, as I have been pretty clear what my position is. I trust we all have a good Lord’s Day tomorrow.
Mike,
I loved your insight and encouragment for us to be careful. I look forward to reading your thread next week.
I won’t comment anymore on tonight, so it will probably be closed by the time I am back. That is ok, as I have been pretty clear what my position is. I trust we all have a good Lord’s Day tomorrow.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
One last thing now that this thread will be closing - I do not in any way mean to cover up or minimize what happened to Tina. I’ve personally seen abuse in a church situation, as others have noted. This isn’t endemic to just IFB churches, and I do agree that IFB polity and practices tend to attract people who are abusive like moths to a flame. That being said…if you suspect that there is any kind of abuse occurring - in a church, work, or home situation - then call the cops first and deal with the other issues after. Don’t sit around and wait for someone else to act or to report it. I think we all agree on that, but in light of how this conversation is going, I thought it might be best to clarify.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Louise Dan]And all the offenders breathe air also so you would also blame the air that they breath?[Joshua Hawn] I have a question: How is it possible to be “IN the IFB”? Isn’t it by very definition “independant”? Thus, I can disagree with how another Independant church does things and not say that WE need to work on things because there isn’t a WE. I can say that certain pastors are sinful or stupid and not be embarrassed that I am “one of them” because we’re all independant. I am not them, we just believe the same way on many things. I take the labels without taking the Grouping.Yes, that is naive. Fundamentalists have grouped themselves even as they eschew the idea of grouping. We’re a dependent bunch of independents. I don’t know your background, but everyone featured last night had a background associated with BJU/The Wilds/Northland. If you associate with any of them, then you are associated with the framework in which all 3 of the instances highlighted by 20/20 were trained/counseled.
Is that too naive?
And if one of my former information technology students at BJU stole money using their computer skills then it would be my fault (as their former advisor and the one who taught them more computer courses than any other faculty) and it would also be BJU’s fault because they were graduates of BJU?
I disagree – even the apostles didn’t know that Judas was a traitor until after he betrayed the Lord. How would I know what lurks in the hearts of my former students and how would a Bible professor know what lurks in the heart of his students?
In BJU’s Biblical counseling classes it is stressed that laws must be followed and illegal activity reported to the police. I took three of the graduate counselings classes while I worked there so I heard this taught.
Disclaimer: I left BJU two years ago and these are my own comments.
[Aaron Blumer]Aaron,
Well, let’s consider a little history. Go back, say, a hundred years, maybe 150. From what I remember reading, it was not unusual for 15 year olds to court and marry in those days.
Most scholars believe women were given in marriage as young as 12 or 13 in Roman times.
So all those early marriages would be full of rape, I suppose? Some people think so (but they tend to be social scientists with very anti-Christian intellectual commitments.) If we say categorically that a teen cannot consent, it would mean all of those marriages were immoral.
This seems to me to be the crux of Pastor Phelps’ argument of why he did no wrong in the way he handled the situation and it seems to me to be very important in your defense of how the situation was handled. I would argue that there is a difference between now and 150 years ago in 15 years ago, and those societal differences do make a difference. Most importantly though, the fact that she was abused - already harmed by someone in authority of her - should have made a difference to the way this was handled - if not then at the very least now.
Aaron,
Perhaps you should go ahead and close this thread. Enough comments have been made to cover the full spectrum of this great tragedy. I would like to see some comments about the Child Evangelism Fellowship thread. It’s thrilling to read about what God is doing through the ministry of CEF. I’ll offer my comments later.
Perhaps you should go ahead and close this thread. Enough comments have been made to cover the full spectrum of this great tragedy. I would like to see some comments about the Child Evangelism Fellowship thread. It’s thrilling to read about what God is doing through the ministry of CEF. I’ll offer my comments later.
Folks have had ample opportunity to express their views. In addition to the repetitiveness and general unhealthiness of dwelling on things like these, we are also moderated by volunteers and we’re usually pretty inactive on weekends. This particular thread would need a lot of watching, and we all have better things to focus on Sunday.
Mike D… didn’t get a chance to respond to your earlier posts: we may end up with significant differences, but I appreciate your desire & effort to start with Scripture and evaluate the situation through a biblical grid.
I’m sure we’re all agreed that we have to do what we can prevent and correct these kinds of sins in our spheres of responsibility, though we differ a lot on what those spheres are and what should be done.
I encourage people again to get Pastor Phelps’ perspective as a first hand participant in the whole business, and evaluate it themselves. http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html
No doubt the 20/20 episode will be on Hulu eventually and people can make their own evaluation of that as well.
People will continue to disagree about who should be believed, but it’s a fact that all parties involved have a vested interest in their own version of events.
Edited to add: Some have understood me to be defending how Phelps handled the situation. If you read carefully, you’ll see I haven’t really done that (yet). What I’ve done is point out problems in how he has been criticized, which is not the same thing. I accept his own assessment that he did not handle everything well.
But my concern has mainly been to point out possibilities that some of his critics have ruled out prematurely—and to try to go after the most serious problem of assuming that current social dogma & legal categories should determine how believers approach spiritual problems. The wisdom of this age is not even close to sufficient for these things.
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
Mike D… didn’t get a chance to respond to your earlier posts: we may end up with significant differences, but I appreciate your desire & effort to start with Scripture and evaluate the situation through a biblical grid.
I’m sure we’re all agreed that we have to do what we can prevent and correct these kinds of sins in our spheres of responsibility, though we differ a lot on what those spheres are and what should be done.
I encourage people again to get Pastor Phelps’ perspective as a first hand participant in the whole business, and evaluate it themselves. http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html
No doubt the 20/20 episode will be on Hulu eventually and people can make their own evaluation of that as well.
People will continue to disagree about who should be believed, but it’s a fact that all parties involved have a vested interest in their own version of events.
Edited to add: Some have understood me to be defending how Phelps handled the situation. If you read carefully, you’ll see I haven’t really done that (yet). What I’ve done is point out problems in how he has been criticized, which is not the same thing. I accept his own assessment that he did not handle everything well.
But my concern has mainly been to point out possibilities that some of his critics have ruled out prematurely—and to try to go after the most serious problem of assuming that current social dogma & legal categories should determine how believers approach spiritual problems. The wisdom of this age is not even close to sufficient for these things.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
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