Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET

[PastorTimDelello] Sadly, IFB attracts weirdos and “baser sort” crowds.

It’s something about the psychology of the movement, I think. The black and white absolute thinking, the authoritarian personalities, all lend themselves to abuse of power. This would draw a sociopath like a moth to the flame. And most of the child molesters are sociopaths.

As for the other kinds of weirdos we draw, I have no explanation.

I know we have all had long days. I was just rereading the thread. I need to make something clear. I see statitory rape and forcible rape to both be evil. Any man or woman who does that to a child is showing their depravity. Something we can all agree on. I agree with Mike. I don’t want any more people abused! I pray that God will give us all the wisdom and grace to report these crimes if/when they happen.

I think one great lesson to learn for those of us who are manditory reporters. Get to know your law enforcement people in your town. They are men and women who do what they do to help. You will also get some opportunities for the Gospel.

I’ve been told that Mr. Willis repented. I believe that he confessed his sin without details before the church. If I’m wrong on that, please correct me here.

As for when more information may come, I just don’t know. I believe that part of this is tied to the legal system. I also don’t know all the facts of this. I know a few things that were told to me in confidence that I won’t divulge, but I know that I don’t know all the facts. I’m waiting just as you are. However, knowing that there are more facts to be learned, I think it’s wise to withhold judgment. It’s very difficult to determine what is and what is not without knowing all the facts. I think all the impassioned leaps to judgment here are NOT HELPFUL. There are a few people in particular who have a penchant for concluding that “this is just typical of fundamentalism.” I found the “wierdo” posts especially laughable. Has anyone here actually been to a homeschool convention? :) Wierdos are everywhere. People are weird. That’s never going to change.

One last thing…as to this never happening again. While it is our hope that what happened at ABWE and what happened here will never happen again, depravity isn’t going away any time soon. As has already been said, if this situation causes us to think through what we might do differently then maybe some good will come.

Matt

The folks in this thread that have determined the root cause for the frequency of this type of tragedy in “our group” to be “pride” and “hunger for power” are dead on. This is all the more sobering in light of Ted Bigelows recent posting, here at SI, where he is encouraging pastors to nullify the priesthood of the believer and separate the clergy even further above the laity, in cases where the laity does not vote the pastors way. This is back-door popery and it is deadly dangerous if we are to continue as Baptists.

The hunger for power must be quenched - the hunger for Christ and righteousness must be kindled!

[Robert Byers] Aaron,
Could you please specifically state what correction a teenage rape victim needs to receive from her (or his) pastor?

That would depend on the teenager and the situation. There is no one size fits all. That’s kind of my point. In many cases, maybe nearly all, there isn’t any need. But in some there could be.
The point of the thought experiment is that if we think in biblical categories, it’s pretty obvious that being a victim does not render one incapable of sinning.

[Anna Walker] Aaron, you are blaming the victim. I know you don’t think you are. But, you are. Your very example is meant to blame the victim. Because you are MAKING the victim in your story (the little boy) look as sinful as possible. You “say” that the bigger child is the one responsible. But, your very words put the blame on the little boy.

Anna, it doesn’t look like you really read the thought experiment.
Please note these phrases…

[Aaron] Is the big guy less to blame for his assault? No…
Is the kid to blame for getting hit? That one’s complicated. I’d say no, he isn’t….
Is the big guy less to blame? Again, no…

Please note also there is no “bigger child.” This is an adult and a teen.

[Aaron] Since this is an assault by adult on a minor, you, as the pastor have to report it.[/quote

I am making the victim look as sinful as possible?
Actally I intentionally limited the scenario in that regard. And chose very mild forms of transgression on the kid’s part.
Things the teen also could have done (but didn’t in my experiment)

• Hit the adult
  
• Dance around the adult shouting “Nah, nah, you can’t hit me!”
  
• Attempt to rob the adult
  

None of these things would change the adults’ culpability. The adult is still 100% responsible for the assault. The kid is only responsible for the kid has done.

We need to get unstuck from binary mode here, folks. We keep speaking as though there were only two choices:

1. Every case is 100% sinfulness by the perp and total sinlessness by the victim
   
2. Every case is total sinlessness of the perp. and 100% sinfulness of the victim.
   
   Reality just doesn’t work that way if we look at it through a biblical lens. There are always two people who are sinners by nature. The possibilities for sin in any interaction are countless.
   
   We are not reducing the sin of one party by affirming what Scripture teachers: that the other is a sinner, too and may have some things to deal with (and may not. I’m also not saying that the victim has sinned in every case. I seriously doubt they have in the vast majority of cases. But we cannot rule out that possibility if we are accepting biblical doctrines of hamartiology and anthropology… which we better do. The sociologists do not get to tell Christians what human nature is.)
   
   So I wonder at this point, what some of you are willing to deny, exactly. It’s not clear to me what your view is. So which of these, if any, is not the teaching of Scripture?
   
   
   • Every human being is a sinner and capable of sinning at all times in all circumstances.
     
   • Every human being is responsible for his own sins regardless of the sins of others.
     
   
   Isn’t the Bible pretty clear on these points? I don’t see why this is difficult.

[Robert Byers]

[Susan R] I can’t believe you all think, after reading this entire thread, that Aaron’s illustration was addressing the forcible rape of young children. I’m aghast. I’m perplexed. I’m… I’m… http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick014.gif

Whoopi Goldberg on the View went on the record in her defense of Roman Polanski by claiming what he did wasn’t “rape rape” just non-consenual sex with an underage minor. Conservative commentators had a field day with that one. When you use words like “the forcible rape of young children” you come awfully close to making the same kind of argument—that unless there was a knife to the throat or a gun to the head, it’s not really all that bad. I’m not trying to judge your motives, I’m trying to explain why people (like me) react so strongly to some of the statements that are being made in this thread. Those words convey a message. They convey an attitude. They convey a conclusion.

The illustration Aaron used sounds to me exactly like an attempt to diminish the focus on the two adult men—one rapist (and yes, given what has been admitted, that is what he is, period) and one pastor, and place it back on the girl. And if that illustration isn’t meant to address the issue of rape, why is it on this thread? Do I completely misjudge him? Here’s a thought experiment (to coin a phrase): suppose a person wanted and intended to shift the focus on responsibility from the men to the girl. How would another analogy better serve that purpose?

My post, #36, was not about Tina or shifting responsibility. I have said (because I have very little knowledge of the Anderson case) that I am only going to discuss the issues surrounding the problem of the victimization of children. As Bro. Durning said in #53- ‘the philosophy of how we should and should not deal with these things’.

My use of the phrase “the forcible rape of young children” was directed toward Anne’s story and her reaction to Aaron’s post. It’s called ‘reading a comment in context’.

Here’s a thought experiment- if you don’t think young people bear any responsibility whatsoever for their actions, then don’t discipline them, don’t teach them safe behaviors, don’t expect them to act appropriately or obey. The same goes for women- since any attempt a man may make to harm me isn’t my fault, then I don’t need to take any precautions whatsoever.

But if you say “Of course you need to take some precautions” then you’ve just said that I have a responsibility for my actions.

Aaron, thank you for your post. From what I know, the Phelps situation appears to have been mishandled. But you raise some important questions. Unfortunately people seem to view this as an all or nothing, either/or situation, and aren’t able to read your post without making huge assumptions about what you are saying. As Susan has pointed out, we can hold the perpetrator fully responsible to fullest extent of the law while also counseling the victim (in SOME cases, not all) how she can grow in wisdom.

[Anna Walker] Susan, I AM responding to the issues being presented. I think you are the one that keeps throwing wrenches into things.

You say that nobody would fault me or blame me. I share my story not for sympathy, but to say that yes I was blamed. By my pastor, by my (multiple) nouthetic counselors, by my own father. What happened to Tina is NOT unusual. I share my story to highlight that fact. Do I want or need sympathy? No. I have an amazing God who has guided me to a secular counselor and I am healing and honestly I now grieve for my abuser instead of hate. I have truly forgiven him and pray for his salvation.

My story is meant to bring a personal side to your views. I don’t think that you guys (Aaron and you are the first people I’m thinking of), realize how your comments can be twisted to blame victims. I’m saying that even though outwardly what you say may “sound” good, when it is put into practice it falls apart and causes damage. Your rhetoric has been repeated for years and years by many pastors and universities. Let’s change that rhetoric. Let’s recognize the flaws.

We NEED to change our treatment of abuse victims. And, I know it hurts to have to acknowledge that maybe we have been wrong. But, I wish you could look into the eyes of a scared fragile broken child who has been abused and then ask them to repent of their sin. I have a picture of me taken with the man who raped me. A picture that traumatizes me to look at it. I was twenty years old when that picture was taken. The look of terror on my face as I am seen next to my abuser is palpable for anyone who sees it. But, but, but …that picture is now a sign of victory to me. Because my God. My great, amazing, God of the impossible has rescued me. The man is now facing life charges for rape of a minor. He will never touch me again. The fear that was so palpable in that face is gone. Can redemption come out of horrible tragedy? Yes. It can. That, Susan, is why we need to change our rhetoric. We can see victory and joy and hope come when abuse situations are dealt with. I hate what my rapist has done. I believe that he deserves to face the consequences of his sin. But, that doesn’t mean I hate him. I will never trust him. I will never be alone with him. And, he very likely will spend the rest of his life in prison. But, I want my life to reflect my God. Not the God of judgment that so many of you describe. But, the God of healing and renewal and grace.

I would like to point out that you know nothing of my life and my personal experiences. I’m not going to share them here because it isn’t anyone’s business, and IMO my personal experiences are irrelevant when dealing with the many issues that surround this topic.

I believe that children should be taught to take reasonable precautions, and I expect them to obey those directives. As they get older, their responsibility increases with their maturity and understanding. If they don’t follow those directives, they are responsible for disobeying. They are not responsible for anything that anyone else does, ever. And guess what? I’m not responsible for some screwhead twisting my words. I said what I said and I meant what I said.

Thought experiment- a child who understands the Gospel and rejects it goes to Hell. By your standards, that is horribly cruel, and no child should ever experience any unpleasantness as a consequence of their actions.

God is a God of victory and comfort and love, but also of judgment.

[Louise Dan]

[Matt Walker] When all the facts are known, if you think Pastor Phelps did wrong, then you should do what your conscience leads you to do knowing the Biblical admonitions about chastising a pastor (1 Timothy).

Matt, what’s he waiting on? The trial of Ernie Willis? What is it that he will say then that he can’t say now? When will all the facts be known as you and Aaron and Susan define it? It’s been a year since this story first broke, over a decade since it originally happened. WHEN will the facts be known?

When all the witnesses have been cross-examined, evidence presented, testimonies verified, the case is tried and transcripts are available to the public. If you know anything about the legal system, you know that it is inadvisable for those involved to talk about the case while it is open.

[Mike Durning]

[PastorTimDelello] Sadly, IFB attracts weirdos and “baser sort” crowds.

It’s something about the psychology of the movement, I think. The black and white absolute thinking, the authoritarian personalities, all lend themselves to abuse of power. This would draw a sociopath like a moth to the flame. And most of the child molesters are sociopaths.

As for the other kinds of weirdos we draw, I have no explanation.

The same dynamic exists http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21392345/ns/us_news-education/ in public schools .

An Associated Press investigation found more than 2,500 cases over five years in which educators were punished for actions from bizarre to sadistic.

There are 3 million public school teachers nationwide, most devoted to their work. Yet the number of abusive educators—nearly three for every school day—speaks to a much larger problem in a system that is stacked against victims.

Most of the abuse never gets reported. Those cases reported often end with no action. Cases investigated sometimes can’t be proven, and many abusers have several victims.

And no one—not the schools, not the courts, not the state or federal governments—has found a surefire way to keep molesting teachers out of classrooms.

So- How many parents are now going to pull their kids from public schools?

[Louise Dan]

[Matt Walker] When all the facts are known, if you think Pastor Phelps did wrong, then you should do what your conscience leads you to do knowing the Biblical admonitions about chastising a pastor (1 Timothy).

Matt, what’s he waiting on? The trial of Ernie Willis? What is it that he will say then that he can’t say now? When will all the facts be known as you and Aaron and Susan define it? It’s been a year since this story first broke, over a decade since it originally happened. WHEN will the facts be known?

This reminded me of Revelation 6:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

God doesn’t ever promise that He will provide all answers to us for things like the martyrdom of our brothers and sisters across the globe, natural disaster (Luke 13) or situations like this. God never answered Job’s demands for an explanation. If we all go the rest of our lives without getting the answers that we seek, that’s God’s prerogative, not ours.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/07/legally-incompetent-sex-offender-s…] Legally Incompetent Sex Offender Set Free in Utah

PROVO, Utah — A Utah judge on Thursday ordered a convicted sex offender freed from a state hospital after the man was deemed incompetent for trial, but not a danger to society.

Prosecutors wanted Lonnie Hyrum Johnson to stay at the Utah State Hospital for continued treatment so he could eventually face the nearly two dozen counts against him of rape, sodomy and aggravated sexual assault of a child, but did not object to the judge’s ruling.

He’ll be out on the streets for the next six months or so while lawyers and judges try to get it all straightened out.

“I would also say that we have seen a documented history of such abuse as being fairly common among IFB churches. Let’s admit that. We can throw stones at the Roman Catholics but tend to avoid admitting this ugly fact about our own group.

The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.

Yes 20/20 will overstate the case but don’t kid yourself into thinking that there isn’t some level of a case to be made that there is a very large problem in this area.”

This is not an IFB problem this is a humanity problem and it is just as common in evangelical churches as it is in IFB churches.

Louise Dan wrote:
Matt Walker wrote:

When all the facts are known, if you think Pastor Phelps did wrong, then you should do what your conscience leads you to do knowing the Biblical admonitions about chastising a pastor (1 Timothy).

Matt, what’s he waiting on? The trial of Ernie Willis? What is it that he will say then that he can’t say now? When will all the facts be known as you and Aaron and Susan define it? It’s been a year since this story first broke, over a decade since it originally happened. WHEN will the facts be known?

I think our reality is that we may never know the facts, and nothing in Scripture guarantees our right to know all the facts, regardless of what our reality TV culture tells us. Scripture does give us several principles to inform our response to situations like these. How do we respond if we believe, from what little we know, that Pastor Phelps did not respond rightly to the situation he faced in his church? Galatians 6:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load.

~Seek to restore him with gentleness. (Not a lot of that happening on this thread, especially with those who are willing to write off a man and ministry they don’t know and/or to whom they haven’t spoken personally.)
~Guard our own selves against temptations. (I appreciate those on this post who are trying to do this—use this opportunity to discern how to protect our children and churches.)
~Help to carry the burdens of fellow believers.
~Take responsibility for carrying my own load.
Perhaps most significantly, in context of this conversation, we should observe the wisdom of Proverbs 18:13:

If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

Wisdom informs us that, when we don’t have the facts (as most people on this thread admit is the case), we shouldn’t try to jump in with an answer. We don’t have the facts. When we may get them isn’t really the point. No one owes us answers. Most (all?) of us are not part of the problem or solution for Chuck Phelps, Trinity Baptist or Tina Anderson. We should remember that. But we are part of the solution for our own families and our own churches. Understanding how to serve and protect them is a wiser investment of time than judging, condemning and blasting the man and the ministry without knowledge.

The old attitude: “She was raped. She must have done something bad to deserve it.”
The new sociological orthodoxy: “She was raped. She cannot possibly have done anything wrong in any way shape or form.”

Mercifully, our current sociological dogma is closer to the truth. But neither of these perspectives is biblical.

It does look like Phelps mishandled the case in a couple of ways. I think he’s pretty much said so, if I remember right. There are a ton of ways to mishandle these cases. Sometimes they are not complicated. Sometimes they are. I’d like to think I’d have done a better job. But I can be a real idiot sometimes, especially when in the middle of a situation (I generally get a lot smarter a few weeks or months after the opportunity has passed!).

But let’s be clear about what is not mishandling: it’s not mishandling to look at the situation and believe that sin of one sort or another could have occurred by all involved… and to have a desire to help all the sinners involved deal not only with what was done to them but what they may have done and may be doing to themselves.

I’m assuming a bit of common sense here. I’m not talking about going to a person person who has recently suffered terrible trauma and lecturing them about some ‘i’ they didn’t dot or ‘t’ they didn’t cross. You have to weigh things.
But all-or-nothing thinking that focuses on “blame” is just not in the best interests of anybody. Better to focus on how all involved can move forward, and that does require that each deal with any sin that might be hindering them, if there is any. It’s not about blame. It’s about growth.

Edit to add: all of what I just described is separate from the legal obligations. Law problems have to be dealt with legally as law problems. Sin problems have to be dealt with spiritually as sin problems. The two may closely correspond, or they may not. The possibilities are endless.

MClark… thanks for that post, too. I think its helpful. Especially well said…

[MClark] Most (all?) of us are not part of the problem or solution for Chuck Phelps, Trinity Baptist or Tina Anderson. We should remember that. But we are part of the solution for our own families and our own churches. Understanding how to serve and protect them is a wiser investment of time than judging, condemning and blasting the man and the ministry without knowledge.