Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET

3 thoughts.

1) 20-20 could have been more vindictive and mean in the report. They didn’t name Jack Schaap who they showed footage of repeatedly. They didn’t name the men who were not shown but whose horrific spanking advice was played. They gave lots of face time to the current pastor at Trinity who did a great job presenting a counter view.

2) The disclosure statements and other info at the site linked above don’t fully convince me that the basic thrust of Tina’s account is not true. In a controlling IFB church, and I’ve been in some, you are being brainwashed and muscled into compliance and you’re told it’s for your own good and you’re led along. I’ve been in the office of a president of a IFB college laying down “the law” on me forcing me through a spiritual abuse tactic, to stand down, basically. It happens. And I can see Tina convincing herself it’s for her own good to stand up and let a letter be read admitting her fault. It’s a documented fact that abuse victims often think they have something to do with the problem that they are at fault.

This wasn’t handled well, and part of this could have been ignorance of the issue by the pastor back at that time when it happened. But as has been pointed out, his disclosure does not convey enough sorrow over the wrongs done to Tina, in my opinion. It looks like a face-saving campaign without much Christian love. It may not be that at all, but it will certainly appear that way to any non-Christians looking at it.

3) If we’re going to censor off-topic comments when people are taking us to task we should do the same when they take others to task too. The comment by E Lewis should not be left to stand as is or should at the least merit a response by moderators. Take an angry rant about Jocelyn somewhere else. Do I think some or much of what is said in the rant has elements of truth? Yes. Do I think that Jocelyn has similar rants on her own FB page and group site, that are beyond the pale of what is fair? Yes. But we should play by the rules we set up and rise above the fray a bit here. That’s at least how it appears to me. I think in some cases a group like Jocelyn’s can help people, but to attack all IFB churches is wrong too.

Anyway just wanted to share a bit of some thoughts I have reading all this.

Aaron, you said what needed to be said re: E Lewis’ rant. Thanks. I was typing when you posted.

[Rachel L.]

So there are no Christians within the criminal justice system? Not a single one? And God won’t/can’t use non-Christians to protect and aid His children?

Rachel,

I didn’t say or intend to say any of what you are inferring from my post. The simple fact is that our criminal justice system is dominated by people who have a secular humanist philosophy. Of course there are some Christians in it, just as there are some Christians in the public school system. You wouldn’t send your child into the public school system expecting that their education will revolve around biblical principles. We shouldn’t naively think the criminal justice system will treat people any differently.

Jay

Louise,

I don’t understand why if a fifteen year old decides to date or sleep with a sixteen year old, it’s OK, but if she sleeps with a 38 year old, then she’s free from blame.

Mary, by all accounts, was thirteen or fourteen when Gabriel appeared to her and told her that she would be the mother of Jesus, and she was able to tell him ‘be in unto me as you have said’.

Furthermore, if Tina was actually sixteen, then the laws of New Hampshire change:

§ 632-A:3 Felonious Sexual Assault.

A person is guilty of a class B felony if he:

I. Subjects a person to sexual contact and causes serious personal injury to the victim under any of the circumstances named in RSA 632-A:2; or

II. Engages in sexual penetration with a person other than his legal spouse who is 13 years of age or older and under 16 years of age; or

III. Engages in sexual contact with a person other than his legal spouse who is under 13 years of age.

IV. Engages in sexual contact with the person when the actor is in a position of authority over the person and uses that authority to coerce the victim to submit under any of the following circumstances:

(a) When the actor has supervisory authority over the victim by virtue of the victim being incarcerated in a correctional
institution or juvenile detention facility; or
(b) When a probation or parole officer has supervisory authority over the victim while the victim is on parole or probation or under juvenile probation.

Source. 1975, 302:1. 1981, 415:4. 1985, 228:4, eff. Jan. 1, 1986. 1997,
220:3, eff. Jan. 1, 1998.

Again….I am NOT saying that Willis is innocent or shouldn’t face jail. I AM saying that there are facts that hadn’t been disclosed before that make Phelps look like he did do his job in reporting it. Those facts should be stated as well before everyone is told that Tina is without blame and Phelps should be stoned in the court of public opinion by your friends.

Some verses came to mind last night re: Pastor Phelps:

But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

Attorneyjay, I’m a little confused by your approach. My understanding (the internet disclaimer IANALBIPOOTV should go here) is that there is a mandatory reporting obligation and time window regarding child abuse, specifically because it is considered an emergency situation - unless the child is sitting in the pastor’s office there is a good possibility that there could be abuse happening right this very second. Whether or not you believe that a 15-year-old girl is mature enough to make her own decisions regarding sexual activity, a legal standard had to be set somewhere, and most states call that standard between 16 and 18. So while I would not expect a secular court to pass *moral* judgment on a 40-something man for having sex, consensual or otherwise, with a 15-year-old girl, I *would* expect them to fairly and correctly pass *legal* judgment on him for statutory rape. And that’s at least part of the whole reason for reporting crimes to the police: a man committed an illegal activity, and there is an obligation by the state to punish that activity. So when I read this…

Otherwise, you are feeding this sinner and the overall situation unprotected to secular humanists in the criminal justice system who care nothing about his or the victim’s soul, families involved, certainly not the church family, or the spiritual dynamics of the overall situation.

…I’m a little confused. It’s not part of the justice system’s responsibility to care for his soul, the church, or any spiritual dynamics. He broke the law. He should be punished. And if he admits to it, then isn’t the defense attorney’s whole raison d’être to ensure the legal punishment is fair? Seems to me any spiritual concern should be kept well out of court system entirely.

Do we know why Phelps characterized Tina’s behavior as consensual while she’s described it as rape? He’s not given any specific info in those documents to support that conclusion. She claims she said “No”. That’s really all she needed to do at any point in their encounter for it to be rape. It doesn’t seem fair that he can make that statement and then not back it up by claiming that his conclusions are based on privileged information. As far as I’m concerned, the horse is out of the corral as soon as you start making such claims.

I do agree in principle that a teenage girl engaging in consensual sex with anyone of any age or gender needs to be counseled about the moral and spiritual implications of her behavior. Whether she was seduced by a sophisticated predator or gave in to the sweet nothing’s of her teenage boyfriend, she’s going to need help that specifically addresses her situation. And those two scenarios are not at all alike, even if they share a few common elements.

Jay C.,

Tina’s age at the time of the alleged rapes is easily verifiable, and it’s not something that SHE or THE POLICE are likely to lie about. The fact that she and the police say that she was 15 years old should certainly hold more weight than Phelps’ statement that she was 16 years old. Phelps has much more reason to spin the idea that she was older. Also, the way his statement was (no doubt carefully) worded he can later claim that he was talking about XYZ time (when she actually was 16 years old), though he will also glean the benefit of shedding suspicion on her age (as evidenced by your post).

[Bob Hayton] In a controlling IFB church, and I’ve been in some, you are being brainwashed and muscled into compliance and you’re told it’s for your own good and you’re led along. I’ve been in the office of a president of a IFB college laying down “the law” on me forcing me through a spiritual abuse tactic, to stand down, basically. It happens.

I agree that this happens, but the question is- how prevalent is this? It sounds like some are proposing that 1) IFBism is a cohesive group of networked, cooperative churches 2) every single church that calls itself IFB, or IB, or IF, or any permutation thereof is guilty of harboring and enabling criminals. That is just… bizarre. I never heard of Phelps until last year. I hadn’t heard a peep about HAC since high school until I started reading SI. BJU has always been ‘that big university down south’ with no more influence on my life than Paris Hilton. It’s conceited to think that any college or church or person is a major cog in IFBs wheel. Does IFBism even have a wheel?

I do believe that there was a time, back when the word ‘pregnant’ was considered to be a dirty word, that sexual issues were not only not discussed, they were not acknowledged. Apparently for many years the stork really was bringing newborns straight to the church nursery. It is IMO reasonable to assume that there was a significant amount of excusing and hiding and under-the-rug-ism going on.

But after the 60’s and 70’s, there is SO much more openness (granted, not all of it good) and information available. See, I have this nifty thing called a library card, and I’ve had one since I was 6. They are free, by the way. It has enabled me over the years to educate myself about the things I hear about or am interested in. I even have my own Bible. So- I have a hard time understanding people who lay themselves down at the doorsteps of others and expect to be cared for, validated, given their life’s purpose and meaning, and fed information with a spoon. I feel for them, but I don’t understand them.

So when someone talks about churches being controlling, my mind goes blank. Really? People let other people control them against their will, and they keep going back for more, and they take no responsibility whatsoever for their own … I don’t know the best word for it … weakness? Vulnerability? Naivete?

Maybe I just totally lucked out with my parents. They always taught us to stand up for ourselves, be our own person, and not to take … you know… from anyone. Which definitely explains why I got so many demerits in college… but it never occurred to me to just lay down and accept injustice and abuse, verbal or otherwise, from anyone, regardless of their position, office, blah blah blah… And it cost me a couple of times, but that’s on them as far as I’m concerned.

I do agree in principle that a teenage girl engaging in consensual sex with anyone of any age or gender needs to be counseled about the moral and spiritual implications of her behavior. Whether she was seduced by a sophisticated predator or gave in to the sweet nothing’s of her teenage boyfriend, she’s going to need help that specifically addresses her situation. And those two scenarios are not at all alike, even if they share a few common elements.

I agree with you here, and I agree that Willis has ‘the greater sin’ here.

[Susan R] Do we know why Phelps characterized Tina’s behavior as consensual while she’s described it as rape? He’s not given any specific info in those documents to support that conclusion. She claims she said “No”. That’s really all she needed to do at any point in their encounter for it to be rape. It doesn’t seem fair that he can make that statement and then not back it up by claiming that his conclusions are based on privileged information. As far as I’m concerned, the horse is out of the corral as soon as you start making such claims.

No, we don’t know why Phelps did what he did. I’d never heard that Tina might be sixteen until this morning, but if she was sixteen, and she refused to press charges or even name Willis, then there’s nothing that the law can do if she was sixteen, which is why I cited §632 of NH law in my previous post. That’s my entire point. The age, I’m sure, is easily verifiable (as Louise noted), but if she was legally over the age of consent, Phelps could hang a giant flag saying that Tina was raped by Willis or announce it on live TV and the cops can’t do a thing. So that’s a HUGE difference that (again) no one had ever mentioned before. My understanding of the law (based on the criminal justice courses that I’ve taken in the past) is that if the sexual incidents took place before she turned sixteen, then the cops can still address the issue. But if she didn’t - if they slept together on her 16th birthday or something - then I don’t think the officers can do a thing.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot] gordian knot in this case is that the cops knew about it and the social workers knew about it. So why aren’t their names being dragged around the internet? Why is only Phelps getting crushed by Anderson, Zichterman, et al? The officer that Phelps reported it to (Officer Cross) and Erin Dickson at NHDCYF (who Phelps says he reported it to) are just as responsible for standing by as Phelps would be if he hadn’t reported it.

Susan, you’re also correct in that all Tina has to do is say “No” for it to be rape (if she’s over sixteen), and I’m not disputing Louise’s theory that she could have been put in a situation where she was pressured into sleeping with Willis. That being said, this wouldn’t be the first time that a ‘rape’ victim turned out to be a willing partner in a sexual relationship and then changed her mind afterward and went to the cops (or was forced to go to the cops by parents or other authority figures).

Already linked to, but just in case:
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/statements-released-to-2020.html

Many inaccuracies have circulated concerning this matter to sensationalize this story. Tragically, Tina was involved in an on-going, sexual relationship with Mr. Willis and continued to contact him even after she was pregnant. Tina lied to her mother and me about this a number of times as we worked through the situation. Tina begged her mother to protect Ernie and not to turn him over to the police. Even though this matter was turned over to the police, they did absolutely nothing for thirteen years. Despite these complications, Tina’s mother did her best to protect her daughter from further harm. She sought and provided a course of protection for Tina.

So before we go all gung-ho in believing every word that Tina says, we ought to realize that Phelps’s side of the story should be weighed as well. And no one - not even Anderson - can give a credible reason for why Phelps wouldn’t have gone to the police immediately.

As Bob Hayton noted, one comment was published earlier today that specifically attacked another person’s motives and character. Since this is a violation of the http://sharperiron.org/sharperiron-forum-comment-policy] site comment policy , I am temporarily unpublishing that remark while the mod/admin team discusses it.

It is entirely possible that the comment will be re-edited by the author and reposted later on; if this happens, we will note that accordingly in this thread.

Since this is an official moderator action, please direct any further questions about my actions to Jim Peet, Forum Director, or Aaron Blumer, site publisher.

So why aren’t their names being dragged around the internet?

Honestly, Jay, we aren’t just trying to have some fun and talking about everyone involved here. Those of us who are talking about this are doing so because we care about Christ’s name. The fact that an IFB pastor did this matters to me. If I were a police officer or a social worker, no doubt I’d care about their involvement and alleged ball-dropping.

So before we go all gung-ho in believing every word that Tina says, we ought to realize that Phelps’s side of the story should be weighed as well.

Certainly. Many of us have done so and believe Tina’s “side of the story.” It’s not that we haven’t weighed Phelps’ statements or that we’ve ignored them or that we have a vendetta. We’ve looked at all of the information available to us and we believe Tina.

I’d never heard that Tina might be sixteen until this morning

But you heard it from an incredibly un-reliable source. If this is the first time you heard it (and the police are moving forward with something that would indicate statutory rape), then why don’t you doubt it given the info stacked against it?

[Rachel L.] The fact that an IFB pastor did this matters to me. If I were a police officer or a social worker, no doubt I’d care about their involvement and alleged ball-dropping.

except for when sexual abuse, cover ups, and inaction have been characterized as specifically an ‘IFB’ problem. It’s a societal problem that also exists in ‘the church’. Hopefully this report will flush some things out between the ears of those who continue to suffer from NIMBY Syndrome (Not In My Back Yard). Some ignorance is malicious, but some is not. However, ignorance is not an excuse, and allowing worldly attitudes into the church is something we should be guarding against in every area.

Anyone who is having ‘fun’ with this is a true sicko. There should be no exuberance or celebrations- grievous things have happened, and we are not to rejoice in iniquity, but remember to be humble and consider ourselves. Seeking justice is not the same as seeking vengeance, and restoration is always to be the goal- and not just for the victims.

… Many of us have done so and believe Tina’s “side of the story.” It’s not that we haven’t weighed Phelps’ statements or that we’ve ignored them or that we have a vendetta. We’ve looked at all of the information available to us and we believe Tina.

Whether one believes Phelps or Tina or that the truth is somewhere in the middle, I’m still wondering about the parts that can but have yet to be proven. It would be huge IMO to have documentation of Phelps taking Tina to the jail to visit her step-father, which, as I understand, he has unequivocally denied. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Just to clarify Chuck’s statement re. Tina’s age, he claims she was 16 when she told her mom & then him that she was pregnant, which of course, was 4 months post-rape. And he knew she was underage when the rape occurred, else there would’ve been no need to call authorities. Frankly, his including her age in the document gives the impression of trying to deflect attention.