Why Certain Types of Music Make Our Brains Sing, and Others Don’t
“our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia.” - Neroscience News
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[dcbii]This approach does not account for biblical data that shows that God does not just reject the use in worship of things that are themselves actually wrong—there are also things that we cannot say are inherently wrong or sinful that are yet not acceptable to God for use in worship. They can be used in other ways, but they cannot be used in worship.In the GBA discussion, I think we’re missing (or at least not discussing) the distinction between something actually being wrong, vs. being a problem because of our human fallenness and tendency to associate things in our minds.
[Kevin Miller]The verse that you quote does not show that those things were acceptable to God for use as offerings in worship. He accepted their being offered as tithes, but that is very different than what the account in Genesis 4 concerns. In Genesis 4, the offerings were actually offered to God in worship.Wouldn’t it be true that “what” Cain offered to God would have been acceptable during the time of Moses? Deuteronomy 14:22 says, “Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.” According to this, ALL crops are acceptable to God when offered as a tithe. Did the acceptability of crops change between the time of Cain and the time of Moses?
Perhaps it was the “manner” in which the offerings were given that caused God to say that Cain “doest not well”. We don’t have access to any specific instructions that Cain and Abel were given in regards to their offering, so we should be very careful about being definitive regarding the details of God’s rejection, since God Himself didn’t give us those details. Saying definitively that the rejection was because of “what” Cain offered seems to contradict “what” God finds acceptable later on.
[RajeshG]This approach does not account for biblical data that shows that God does not just reject the use in worship of things that are themselves actually wrong—there are also things that we cannot say are inherently wrong or sinful that are yet not acceptable to God for use in worship. They can be used in other ways, but they cannot be used in worship.
Rajesh, I agree with you on this point — my approach is for cases where God hasn’t directly spoken. One example of your category would be the use of carved/hewn stones in an altar, which God said was not to be done, though he said nothing about using such in homes.
Based on prior discussions, we’re likely going to disagree on music that can/cannot be used as part of worship given we see the scriptures differently on points you have brought up in the past. However, in a practical sense, knowing your church, I suspect our musical church worship standards are actually substantially similar.
Dave Barnhart
[RajeshG]Are you saying that tithing is not a form of worship?
The verse that you quote does not show that those things were acceptable to God for use as offerings in worship. He accepted their being offered as tithes, but that is very different than what the account in Genesis 4 concerns. In Genesis 4, the offerings were actually offered to God in worship.
[Kevin Miller]When the Israelites offered their tithes, they were not doing the same thing as when they brought a lamb or something else to be offered in worship on an altar.Are you saying that tithing is not a form of worship?
Clearly, when Abel brought the fat of his offering, he was not “tithing.” Furthermore, holding that Cain in the Gen. 4 account was merely “tithing” what he brought from the fruit of the ground is reading something from much later in Scripture back into a much earlier context.
[RajeshG]So it’s the altar that makes a difference? That’s why I said earlier that it might be the “manner” in which Cain’s offering was made that was unacceptable rather than the “what” of what he offered. We know that all crops were acceptable to God when offered in worship as tithes, but they wouldn’t have been acceptable as worship on an altar.When the Israelites offered their tithes, they were not doing the same thing as when they brought a lamb or something else to be offered in worship on an altar.
Still, both tithes and other offerings were all done in worship, weren’t they? You said earlier in the thread - “Moreover, Scripture does not provide any basis for definitively holding that *what* Cain offered to God in worship was itself acceptable to God for use in worship . . ” Yet when used in worship as tithes, the fruit of the earth was absolutely acceptable to God for use in worship. Isn’t that right?
[Kevin Miller]The revelation in Deut. 14:22 only applied to what the Israelites had actually sown and then reaped. It did not apply to things that grew naturally that were not planted by the Israelites.So it’s the altar that makes a difference? That’s why I said earlier that it might be the “manner” in which Cain’s offering was made that was unacceptable rather than the “what” of what he offered. We know that all crops were acceptable to God when offered in worship as tithes, but they wouldn’t have been acceptable as worship on an altar.
Still, both tithes and other offerings were all done in worship, weren’t they? You said earlier in the thread - “Moreover, Scripture does not provide any basis for definitively holding that *what* Cain offered to God in worship was itself acceptable to God for use in worship . . ” Yet when used in worship as tithes, the fruit of the earth was absolutely acceptable to God for use in worship. Isn’t that right?
We do not know whether Cain offered something from the ground that he had sown or whether he offered something that the ground produced on its own without any human intervention.
No, I do not regard what the Israelites did in the tithing that passage speaks of as the same as the worship that they rendered in the Tabernacle or the Temple.
My statement that you quote was specifically concerning the context of Genesis 4. The consideration that you have brought up from Deut. 14:22 does not apply to how what took place in Genesis 4 is to be interpreted.
[dcbii]Given that Scripture shows various instances of things that were not acceptable for use in worship, but were suitable for certain other uses, holding that the realm of instrumental music is different and that all kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in worship would be either begging the question or special pleading. Scripture does not support in any way holding the position that all kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in worship.Rajesh, I agree with you on this point — my approach is for cases where God hasn’t directly spoken. One example of your category would be the use of carved/hewn stones in an altar, which God said was not to be done, though he said nothing about using such in homes.
Based on prior discussions, we’re likely going to disagree on music that can/cannot be used as part of worship given we see the scriptures differently on points you have brought up in the past. However, in a practical sense, knowing your church, I suspect our musical church worship standards are actually substantially similar.
[RajeshG]Since we don’t know, then why would this make any difference? Are you actually saying that if the Israelites took over someone else’s vineyard and didn’t actually plant the vineyard themselves, they would not have to tithe on the crops? That position makes no sense at all. It sounds like you are dancing around trying to nuance the previous statements you’ve made and it’s just not working.The revelation in Deut. 14:22 only applied to what the Israelites had actually sown and then reaped. It did not apply to things that grew naturally that were not planted by the Israelites.
We do not know whether Cain offered something from the ground that he had sown or whether he offered something that the ground produced on its own without any human intervention.
No, I do not regard what the Israelites did in the tithing that passage speaks of as the same as the worship that they rendered in the Tabernacle or the Temple.This is the first time I’ve ever heard someone claim that tithing isn’t worship. The statement that I quoted from you used the general word “worship”, so I assumed, based on your actual wording of the statement, that you meant “worship,” not just “the very specific worship only mentioned in Genesis 4 for which we have no explicit instructions anyway.” Isn’t it true that since we have no explicit instruction recorded for Genesis 4, that we can’t even definitively claim that Cain and Abel’s worship was the same as that “rendered in the Tabernacle or the Temple”?My statement that you quote was specifically concerning the context of Genesis 4. The consideration that you have brought up from Deut. 14:22 does not apply to how what took place in Genesis 4 is to be interpreted.
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[Kevin Miller]This is the first time I’ve ever heard someone claim that tithing isn’t worship.
You are not accurately representing what I have said. I did not say that “tithing isn’t worship.”
[RajeshG]I thought that statement would get a response from you, though I see you STILL haven’t specifically said that you believe tithing IS worship. I asked you a direct question earlier, since I know you like to nuance your answers. I had quoted the verse about tithes, and you responded with these sentences:You misrepresent what I have said. I did not say that “tithing isn’t worship.”
The verse that you quote does not show that those things were acceptable to God for use as offerings in worship. He accepted their being offered as tithes, but that is very different than what the account in Genesis 4 concerns. In Genesis 4, the offerings were actually offered to God in worship.
From that I wondered if you saw a difference between “tithes” and “worship.” Yes, both thing were being offered, but you made it sound as if tithes do NOT get offered “in worship.” So I then asked you directly:
Are you saying that tithing is not a form of worship?
You could have given me a direct answer and said, “of course, tithes are worship,” but you didn’t do that, so you left me unsure about your position. You said:
When the Israelites offered their tithes, they were not doing the same thing as when they brought a lamb or something else to be offered in worship on an altar.
Of course they weren’t “doing the same thing,” but that is not what I asked you. I didn’t ask if they were “the same thing.” I asked if tithing was a form of worship, and you purposely decided not to answer directly. I then asked you one more time directly, to see if I could finally get a direct answer from you. I asked:
Still, both tithes and other offerings were all done in worship, weren’t they?
This time, you started your response to that part of my post with a direct yes or no. You said “No.” I took you at your word that you meant a direct “No.”
No, I do not regard what the Israelites did in the tithing that passage speaks of as the same as the worship that they rendered in the Tabernacle or the Temple.
So how can you say I am misrepresenting you? I asked and asked until I got what I thought was a direct answer from you. Were you still continuing to try to misdirect me?
[Kevin Miller]I never try to misdirect people, and I did not say what you claim I said. I have said what I have to say about this subject to you and am not going to discuss it any further with you.No, I do not regard what the Israelites did in the tithing that passage speaks of as the same as the worship that they rendered in the Tabernacle or the Temple.
So how can you say I am misrepresenting you? I asked and asked until I got what I thought was a direct answer from you. Were you still continuing to try to misdirect me?
[RajeshG]Given that Scripture shows various instances of things that were not acceptable for use in worship, but were suitable for certain other uses, holding that the realm of instrumental music is different and that all kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in worship would be either begging the question or special pleading. Scripture does not support in any way holding the position that all kinds of instrumental music are acceptable to God for use in worship.
I don’t hold that all types of music MUST be suitable for worship. In fact, I believe that there are some types I find unsuitable, and I base that on other principles given to us in the scripture. The fact remains that we don’t have (as compared with altar stones) a direct prohibition on musical types, so I wouldn’t turn around and say “Thus saith the Lord — you cannot use music type X as part of worship.”
If pressed, I might explain to someone why I find certain types unsuitable. That’s a far cry from taking my conviction and declaring it biblical truth or even biblical principle.
Dave Barnhart
[RajeshG]I didn’t realize it was such a hard question for you to answer. Sorry. I didn’t realize that when you wrote “No” that you might not actually mean “No.”
I never try to misdirect people, and I did not say what you claim I said. I have said what I have to say about this subject to you and am not going to discuss it any further with you.
(Do you mean “No” or do you mean “Yes”? I guess I’ll never find out.)
I was just trying to understand your point in the post you made that you titled “More on God’s rejection of Cain’s worship.” I’ve quoted a line from that post already. You said, “Moreover, Scripture does not provide any basis for definitively holding that *what* Cain offered to God in worship was itself acceptable to God for use in worship . . ” You then ended that post with the sentence - “Just because people are made in God’s image and are recipients of His common grace does not prove that what they creatively produce for use in worship must itself be acceptable to God and pleasing to Him.” Based on that last sentence, I thought you were mentioning Cain to make a general point about worship in general, and it made me think of the verse that described tithing, since worshiping God with tithes COULD be done with the fruit of the ground, and therefore “*what* Cain offered to God in worship” actually COULD be acceptable to God in a different form of worship. I didn’t realize you were making a point ONLY about the very specific type of worship that was being done by Cain and that you weren’t trying to apply your point to worship in general..
[dcbii]I don’t hold that all types of music MUST be suitable for worship. In fact, I believe that there are some types I find unsuitable, and I base that on other principles given to us in the scripture. The fact remains that we don’t have (as compared with altar stones) a direct prohibition on musical types, so I wouldn’t turn around and say “Thus saith the Lord — you cannot use music type X as part of worship.”
If pressed, I might explain to someone why I find certain types unsuitable. That’s a far cry from taking my conviction and declaring it biblical truth or even biblical principle.
As I see it, the ultimate issue is not whether you or I or anyone else believes that such and such kinds of instrumental music are “unsuitable” or not. The fundamental issue is whether there are kinds of instrumental music that God does not accept for use in corporate worship.
It seems that you are unwilling to hold that there are kinds of instrumental music that God deems unacceptable for use in corporate worship.
Discussion