Why Certain Types of Music Make Our Brains Sing, and Others Don’t
“our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia.” - Neroscience News
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[RajeshG]Anyone who claims that all kinds of instrumental music are not only lawful, but also expedient and edifying and therefore fit for use in worship has to prove biblically where God teaches that what He says in 1 Cor. 10:23 does not apply to instrumental music.
In the absence of scriptural proof otherwise (which I haven’t seen and haven’t been convinced of by others), I do, in fact, believe that all forms of instrumental music are lawful.
Based on other principles I apply from scripture, I don’t think that all of it is expedient or edifying for use in worship (in my view). However, I cannot prove that such is always the case for every person in every context. Again, for that to be true, someone is going to have to show me at least one example of a piece of instrumental music that is in all cases neither expedient nor edifying, and prove to me from the scriptures that it isn’t. Otherwise, I’m still going to believe that expedient and edifying are judgment calls, since, unlike the fruit of the forbidden tree, God hasn’t pointed out to us exactly what to avoid to meet his standard in that area.
What it sounds like we are doing is arguing the two sides of one particular application of the RPW question.
Dave Barnhart
[RajeshG]But your evidence doesn’t actually refute that view. Consider what you said about the tree in the Garden.Someone is claiming that distinguishing between “sinful” and “prohibited” is redundant. I am again presenting the evidence that refutes that false view.
God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Neither it nor its fruit was therefore sinful. Nonetheless, God prohibited human consumption of its fruit. The fruit was not sinful, but it was prohibited by God for human consumption as food.
Human consumption of the fruit was prohibited. That made human consumption of the fruit sinful. Isn’t that redundant, then? Sinful and prohibited are basically the same in regards to the consumption of the fruit. So let’s consider the fruit itself. Was it prohibited? They weren’t prohibited from looking at it or touching it or smelling it. The ONLY prohibition involved the consumption of it, which was both prohibited AND sinful. Thus there IS a reduncancy that you haven’t refuted.
[dcbii]I find it amazing that you say that you have to have scriptural proof that there are types of instrumental music that are not lawful. Why do you believe that your assumption that they are all lawful is biblically legitimate?RajeshG wrote:
Anyone who claims that all kinds of instrumental music are not only lawful, but also expedient and edifying and therefore fit for use in worship has to prove biblically where God teaches that what He says in 1 Cor. 10:23 does not apply to instrumental music.
In the absence of scriptural proof otherwise (which I haven’t seen and haven’t been convinced of by others), I do, in fact, believe that all forms of instrumental music are lawful.
[dcbii]In the same manner that you reason to hold your views concerning all kinds of instrumental music, do you also reason to hold that all kinds of dancing are lawful?In the absence of scriptural proof otherwise (which I haven’t seen and haven’t been convinced of by others), I do, in fact, believe that all forms of instrumental music are lawful.
Based on other principles I apply from scripture, I don’t think that all of it is expedient or edifying for use in worship (in my view). However, I cannot prove that such is always the case for every person in every context. Again, for that to be true, someone is going to have to show me at least one example of a piece of instrumental music that is in all cases neither expedient nor edifying, and prove to me from the scriptures that it isn’t. Otherwise, I’m still going to believe that expedient and edifying are judgment calls, since, unlike the fruit of the forbidden tree, God hasn’t pointed out to us exactly what to avoid to meet his standard in that area.
What it sounds like we are doing is arguing the two sides of one particular application of the RPW question.
[RajeshG]I find it amazing that you say that you have to have scriptural proof that there are types of instrumental music that are not lawful. Why do you believe that your assumption that they are all lawful is biblically legitimate?
I went back and forth as to whether I should even bother answering this, as I know my answer will not satisfy you, or perhaps even anyone else on this forum, but just for clarity, I’ll lay it out once.
How do we know what is evil (unlawful)? The only way for us to know is through God’s word. Some things it makes clear are evil, because God has given us direct, clear instruction. For other things, the only way we can know is because God’s word lays out the principles and ways for us to evaluate whether something is evil or to be avoided. The same is true for things that are not evil, but God has told us they are not to be used in certain contexts. For anything else that doesn’t fit under direct command or principles for evaluating evil, we might have to evaluate whether it is edifying or appropriate for a situation, but we can’t just assume at this point that it must evil.
You can either disagree or agree with the main thrust of the above. If you disagree, there’s no need for us to continue arguing, because we don’t see the true Faith in the same way. If we have no way of knowing whether something is evil, but somehow God has declared it so, then such a god would be capricious, and there would be no way for me to live a sanctifying life by doing what is right and holy. I could never know, and would just have to hope. Then, it almost doesn’t matter whether what I am using is right or holy, because there would be no other way than random chance that I could ever get it right. Since Paul made it clear when he wrote “shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid!”, I continue to believe that we have the tools to evaluate what is good and evil in God’s eyes.
So assuming you agree that either God has told us or given us the tools to evaluate something as evil, I’m going to ask what I mentioned in shorthand in previous posts — what tools has God given us to evaluate instrumental music as right/good or wrong/evil? What has he written to tell us so? Assuming you believe he has given us those tools, I’m going to ask you how to use them on a piece of music. Please pick an example and evaluate it for us.
I suspect your answer will fall into the various answers I get to this — you’re just not going to do that; you have no time to answer; there is no reason you should have to, but I should have to just accept that it is so; it’s left as an exercise to the reader, etc. When I get any answer other than “sure, I can show you,” I then have the right to believe that the one telling me music must be either good or evil has absolutely no idea how to objectively evaluate a piece of music as to goodness or evilness, and that whatever judgment they are making is entirely subjective and unrepeatable by me. By definition, anything that is a subjective judgment on our part is not something that others need to consider absolutely good or evil, because God makes those judgments. If you are actually using a God-given objective standard (that a large number of us are somehow unable to see), you should have no issue with sharing how to use that standard with us.
One could almost consider this a modern-day version of gnostic secrets. We’re told that music can be evaluated (or that God has told us), but when it comes to applying it to an actual example, somehow it can never be done.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]This approach does not account for an all-important universal reality—Satan and his demons know countless things that no humans know or can know in any other way except through demonic revelation or influence. Evil humans who engage in demonic activities or in some other manner have contact with demons can and do produce things that are unacceptable to God but their unacceptability to God is not able to be properly assessed by other humans who do not have access to the information that Satan and his demons know about what is not acceptable to God.I went back and forth as to whether I should even bother answering this, as I know my answer will not satisfy you, or perhaps even anyone else on this forum, but just for clarity, I’ll lay it out once.
How do we know what is evil (unlawful)? The only way for us to know is through God’s word. Some things it makes clear are evil, because God has given us direct, clear instruction. For other things, the only way we can know is because God’s word lays out the principles and ways for us to evaluate whether something is evil or to be avoided. The same is true for things that are not evil, but God has told us they are not to be used in certain contexts. For anything else that doesn’t fit under direct command or principles for evaluating evil, we might have to evaluate whether it is edifying or appropriate for a situation, but we can’t just assume at this point that it must evil.
You can either disagree or agree with the main thrust of the above. If you disagree, there’s no need for us to continue arguing, because we don’t see the true Faith in the same way. If we have no way of knowing whether something is evil, but somehow God has declared it so, then such a god would be capricious, and there would be no way for me to live a sanctifying life by doing what is right and holy. I could never know, and would just have to hope. Then, it almost doesn’t matter whether what I am using is right or holy, because there would be no other way than random chance that I could ever get it right. Since Paul made it clear when he wrote “shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid!”, I continue to believe that we have the tools to evaluate what is good and evil in God’s eyes.
Furthermore, humans are completely unable to rightly evaluate things of supernatural evil merely by experiencing them. Experiencing such things and seeking to assess them by merely human means and knowledge is a patently unbiblical and faulty approach to such things.
This response will very likely not satisfy you. I am content with leaving it there.
Scripture reveals to us that Cain engaged in worship that was not acceptable to God. It also explicitly tells us that Cain was of the devil.
We cannot know with any certainty what exactly Cain did with the offering that he brought so that it was unacceptable to God.
Satan and his demons, however, know with certainty everything about what Cain did in the worship that God rejected. Given their unceasing desire and intent to deny God the worship that He demands, desires, and deserves, we can be certain that Satan and his demons in various ways have directed countless other humans since Cain to engage in worship that has not been acceptable to God.
Our not knowing any details about such unacceptable worship does not mean that such unacceptable worship does not take place in our day. It also does not mean that the same considerations that made Cain’s worship unacceptable are impossible when evil humans engage in various worship or other activities involving instrumental music.
[RajeshG]Satan and his demons, however, know with certainty everything about what Cain did in the worship that God rejected. Given their unceasing desire and intent to deny God the worship that He demands, desires, and deserves, we can be certain that Satan and his demons in various ways have directed countless other humans since Cain to engage in worship that has not been acceptable to God.
Our not knowing any details about such unacceptable worship does not mean that such unacceptable worship does not take place in our day.
Since this is true, then can you be certain that your own church is engaging in worship that is acceptable to God? Satan and his demons know what is unacceptable, but since we don’t have access to that information, than any church could be engaging in unacceptable worship, since demonic forces are always at work in our world. Isn’t that true?
[RajeshG]dcbii wrote: In the absence of scriptural proof otherwise (which I haven’t seen and haven’t been convinced of by others), I do, in fact, believe that all forms of instrumental music are lawful.
I find it amazing that you say that you have to have scriptural proof that there are types of instrumental music that are not lawful. Why do you believe that your assumption that they are all lawful is biblically legitimate?
Rajesh,
Here are the questions I use to approach this:
1- Has music been commended / commanded generally in Scripture?
(my answer:YES)
2- Has any musical style been prohibited in Scripture?
(my answer:NO)
3- If #2 is yes, then has Scripture described a prohibited style such that we know what to avoid?
(my answer:NO)
[RajeshG] It also does not mean that the same considerations that made Cain’s worship unacceptable are impossible when evil humans engage in various worship or other activities involving instrumental music.But the context of Genesis 4 does not have anything to do with instrumental music. You made it very clear earlier that we need to stay specifically on the context of Genesis 4 when talking about the *what* of being offered by Cain as being unacceptable to God in worship. I had thought at that time that you were making general comments about worship and that’s why I brought up tithing as another form of worship. You shot that down as not relating to the context of Genesis 4, so how can you NOW say that “various worship” and “other activities involving instrumental music” possibly have “the same considerations that made Cain’s worship unacceptable”?
[Dan Miller]So applying this approach to dancing, you hold that twerking in corporate worship is fully acceptable to God because Scripture does not prohibit that style of dancing, right?Rajesh,
Here are the questions I use to approach this:
1- Has music been commended / commanded generally in Scripture?
(my answer:YES)
2- Has any musical style been prohibited in Scripture?
(my answer:NO)
3- If #2 is yes, then has Scripture described a prohibited style such that we know what to avoid?
(my answer:NO)
Twerking is presented as an unacceptable form of dancing. What is an actual example of unacceptable worship music that we could hear?
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[RajeshG]This is quite true.Furthermore, humans are completely unable to rightly evaluate things of supernatural evil merely by experiencing them. Experiencing such things and seeking to assess them by merely human means and knowledge is a patently unbiblical and faulty approach to such things.
And it’s also a good reason to be very careful about relying on the testimony of musicians who make claims of demonic influence over certain musical styles based on their own personal experiences.
Earlier tonight, I posted elsewhere the following:
A Very Plausible Scenario concerning Cain’s Unacceptable Worship
I have been studying and pondering the account of Cain’s unacceptable worship in Genesis 4. Here is what I think is a very plausible scenario concerning that unacceptable worship.
Adam instructs Cain that God demands that we offer animal sacrifices and that the animal sacrificed must be the best of the flock. Adam also tells Cain that the fat of the animal offered has to be offered as well.
Cain pretends to agree with his dad, but in his heart, he questions whether what he was told was true. The serpent comes to Cain and says to him,
“God will accept other things in worship. After all, God is the Creator of everything. He created the ground and everything that comes from the ground. Do not listen to what your father said to you. He does not know what he is talking about. God will surely accept what you have worked so hard to obtain through your tilling the ground.”
Cain does not believe the divine revelation that was given to him from his dad who had received that revelation directly from God. He does not offer what he had been told God required.
God rejects his worship and appeals to him to do what he knows he should do. Cain refuses.
Cain’s unbelief of God’s revelation, acceptance of demonic teaching, acting on that demonic teaching, and refusing to repent when God confronts him with the demand that he do what is right seals Cain’s fate. From that point onward, Cain is of the devil.
[RajeshG]I’m not sure why you feel the need to come up with a “plausible scenario” when the statement you made earlier about Cain’s worship was so spot on. You said, “We cannot know with any certainty what exactly Cain did with the offering that he brought so that it was unacceptable to God.” The Bible doesn’t tell us, so this scenario you’ve invented is entirely the product of your imagination. It’s rather odd to me that you imagine the serpent continuing to interact with the first family even after it’s suffered the judgment of God in the Fall. That’s not plausible to me at all.Earlier tonight, I posted elsewhere the following:
A Very Plausible Scenario concerning Cain’s Unacceptable Worship
I have been studying and pondering the account of Cain’s unacceptable worship in Genesis 4. Here is what I think is a very plausible scenario concerning that unacceptable worship.
Adam instructs Cain that God demands that we offer animal sacrifices and that the animal sacrificed must be the best of the flock. Adam also tells Cain that the fat of the animal offered has to be offered as well.
Cain pretends to agree with his dad, but in his heart, he questions whether what he was told was true. The serpent comes to Cain and says to him,
“God will accept other things in worship. After all, God is the Creator of everything. He created the ground and everything that comes from the ground. Do not listen to what your father said to you. He does not know what he is talking about. God will surely accept what you have worked so hard to obtain through your tilling the ground.”
Cain does not believe the divine revelation that was given to him from his dad who had received that revelation directly from God. He does not offer what he had been told God required.
God rejects his worship and appeals to him to do what he knows he should do. Cain refuses.
Cain’s unbelief of God’s revelation, acceptance of demonic teaching, acting on that demonic teaching, and refusing to repent when God confronts him with the demand that he do what is right seals Cain’s fate. From that point onward, Cain is of the devil.
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