Trump Evangelical Advisers Back Voting Challenges But Stop Short of Alleging Fraud
The Quote:
“The election will be decided, he said, when the electors vote in December.”
Is a fantasy. Trump will fight this all the way to the end. We said the voters would decide this. Then we said the states will decide this when they certify their results. Now we are saying the electors will decide this. Trump is on very dangerous ground right now. There is no fraud of any significance and he continues to peddle lies. Now he is trying to influence county boards by calling people yesterday. Today he invited MI lawmakers to the White House. He is actively engaging states to see if they can overturn the vote by putting in their own electors. This is getting crazy. Every single step he is taking is out of a dictators play book. It is almost scary. I cannot believe evangelicals support this. This is getting ridiculous. This really truly points to the man that he has always been, but we were blinded.
What dictators do you have in mind? Since the United States is a democratic republic with a unique system for electing presidents, I have trouble imagining what other dictators have done what Trump is now doing. If what Trump is doing cannot be proven in a court of law, it’s over. If, however, even some of these charges can be verified, we’ve got a whole new ball game. Why the rush to declare it over? Let the system play out according to the Constitution, and then we’ll know. Even if his charges do not change the outcome, they may well serve a valuable purpose. If there is fraud, it needs to be uncovered and dealt with, not ignored. If there is no fraud, his groundless charges with no concrete evidence should assure millions of Americans that the election was fair. Questions have been raised, and they need to be settled. So once gain, why the rush to judgment?
G. N. Barkman
After this evening’s decision by the Federal Court in GA, Trump and his “crack” team are 1-32. And their lone “win”, the setting aside of a few ballots in PA, was already happening. They’re the Washington Generals of political campaigns.
Seriously, though, those of you who keep saying “why rush to judgment”, at what point do you start listening to those pointing out that the emperor has no clothes? And what do you say to the fact that Rudy and company loudly tout all this unquestionable evidence of voter fraud in front of the TV cameras but somehow manage to never include any of it in the suits and motions? They know that they can lie to the public but they can’t to the courts.
John, you are probably right, but again, what’s the rush? If Giuliani is whistling in the dark (and it looks to me like that is indeed the case), that will be obvious when nothing gains court traction. But if his team has evidence that is convincing enough to get a hearing, we need to let it play out in court. That’s what’s happening now, and you’re right, Trump’s team has a really bad record so far. If they can’t do any better, the charges of fraud will be obvious enough for most to agree the election was fair. At what point do you say that the emperor has no clothes? When the process has run its course. Why is it necessary to declare this before all the appeals have been completed? What’s driving this? Are you afraid that there may be some serious and provable fraud ahead, and you need to pressure Trump to concede quickly before it is uncovered? If you have nothing to fear, why the need to short circuit the process? But if there is fraud, we need to deal with it for the integrity of future elections. If Rudy is making a fool of himself (which I think he probably is), let that run its course as well. The country needs to see the folly displayed so that it won’t easily arise in the future.
G. N. Barkman
Trump and company aren’t the only ones cranking up the decibels. Charges like “Dictator’s Play Book” are both groundless and inflammatory. Let’s be willing to sit quietly and let this run its course. Hopefully, any fraud that’s real will be brought to light, and all groundless charges will be demonstrated to be foolish. Isn’t that what we all desire? We really need to know what’s actually going on here.
G. N. Barkman
What’s the rush? That’s not a valid question because there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. None. Zero. Zilch. Only assertions. Lots and lots of assertions. Whether any of us like it (and contrary to popular opinion, I am not happy that Joe Biden is our next president), Biden won fair and square. And Trump’s attempts to meddle with and overthrow the process is fomenting violence and causing people to swallow conspiracy theories. Are you paying attention to the language of Metaxas, Syndey Powell, et al.? They’re comparing this to 1775, declaring a new revolution. In the words of historian Jay Fliegelman, “The empire of influence is infinitely more powerful than the empire of force.” Trump is using his influence to con his followers. What his endgame is, I do not know. Most likely to salve his ego; he can leave office knowing that 35-40% of Americans believe he is the rightful president. Deceit and manipulation should be shouted down by Christians. Not excused by “hey, what’s the harm in waiting to see.”
Sen. Sasse says it well:
Getting sworn affidavits and using them in suits filed clearly contradicts the claim of “never include any of it in the suits and motions”.
Quite a few assertions in the above, but is “widespread” a necessary condition to not rush to declare one candidate the winner? If choosing our leaders is the human bedrock of our government, a strong bias to be certain, which may require taking more time, is not only logical but wise. Stewardship matters.
Also has a lot to do with how much one trusts the mainstream media to be actually publicizing the evidence. Observing the MSM“s proven bias (simply study minutes of negative coverage of Trump cf. coverage of any sort - and that mostly positive - of Biden) against the incumbent administration, a healthy dose of skepticism about what is and is not being reported by them is warranted.
Lastly, wanting to take the time to see the facts is not the same as endorsing “deceit and manipulation” - charges which I chartiably view as conjecture since we don’t actually know the facts.
This is not about fraud and never was. Rudy, clearly stated in court, when asked by the PA judge whether this was about fraud, and he replied, “No!”. I am fine with the investigations. What I am not fine with, is the lies that the team is purposedly pushing forward as a narrative. They continue to get more outlandish. But even beyond that, is Trumps approach to subvert the voting process. He called the poll officials in MI directly (confirmed by the officials and the White House) to influence the certification process. He has now invited the GOP lawmakers from MI to the White House (confirmed by the officials, and officially confirmed by the WH) in attempt to get them to place their own electors into the electoral college in order to drive an outcome that is not aligned to the voting results. Both he and Rudy have laid out that option. This is not about fraud, but about him winning at any cost, even if that means trying to subvert the normal process. That is what is dangerous here. He is hiding out in the WH, not doing anything and stewing about this whole loss. Deaths are going up for COVID, and the administration is preventing Biden from starting the transition. He is making changes in his last few days in order to make it difficult for Biden to transition. He is trying to “burn the house down”. Everyone thinks he is for the evangelicals or the right, or for morals…. He is only 100% in it for himself and at the end of the day he cares nothing about evangelicals, the right, the country or anything else for that matter. His level of narcissism is off the charts in my opinion.
The danger is that large swaths of the country believe that the election was fraudulent and stolen. They will hold onto that, despite absolutely no evidence that this is the case. Someone asked how Trump is acting like a dictator. This is how it starts. You take a democratic country, you question the legitimacy of the voting process and the new leader. You create rabid levels of followers, and growing militias who are aligned to you. You look for ways to subvert the legal process and try to stay in control (get lawmakers to appoint their own electoral individuals to vote for Trump regardless of the vote). Do I think Trump will succeed? No. But the actions are very, very dangerous.
[JohnS]Lastly, wanting to take the time to see the facts is not the same as endorsing “deceit and manipulation” - charges which I chartiably view as conjecture since we don’t actually know the facts.
We do know the facts. They are presented in court. Which by the way, Trump has not been able to present as 32 of the 33 cases have been thrown out at the time of filing, or at the first hearing. For what? For a lack of any evidence that fraud was committed. The story they are peddling is the just rehashed over and over with no evidence. If there was something so terrible, as fraud on a scale unseen (which is how Rudy describes it), wouldn’t at least one court case move forward with fraud. Just one? The far right continues to be gullible. Many of the cases, the judges have scratched their head at what is actually being claimed. The reason Rudy had to take over is that law firms are abandoning the cases, as they are getting close to contempt. 3 judges have already scolded the law firms as knowingly bringing frivolous lawsuits to court with no evidence. I am looking at my Christian friends on Facebook and they are leaving that site to go to Parler and Newsmax, because those sites are feeding their narrative, or how they would like to say it, telling the truth, while all of the mainstream media, nonpartisan fact checking outlets, Republican and Democratic Secretaries of States, Republican and Democratic judges and everyone else is hiding everything. Trump is the one individual who really has the truth, and he is on the verge of releasing evidence of widespread fraud and having the whole thing crumble, as he has stated many times. Why does this sound famililar? Ohhh, wait, that is the same narrative as Qannon. But that can’t be. Many of you have never heard of Qannon. Ha! Unbelievable!
Even Tucker Carlson is calling Sidney Powell out for zero evidence. And, John S., the facts are that Biden won and there has been zero evidence to the contrary introduced in court. Again, lies, deceit, and conspiracy theories - things followers of Jesus should condemn.
Sworn affidavits that have been tossed by judge after judge as hearsay, lacking in substance, or evidencing a lack of understanding of the law. Zero evidence. Trump and his cronies are conning you.
Some of us are not being conned. We understand that vital issues are at stake in what is taking place that are much bigger than which candidate becomes President.
What’s yet at stake in key controversies over this presidential election is what kind of country we will be. Either we are going to be a country where laws are followed or we are going to be a country where laws can be set aside by people whom the laws do not authorize to do so.
Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.
[RajeshG]Some of us are not being conned.
No, you are being conned. All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia. Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud. No lawsuits left in Georgia. No lawsuits left in Michigan. What you are seeing is that any old fool can stand up and say whatever they want in front of a podium with cameras and microphones. But because we are a country that is about rule of law, there isn’t much you can do legally when there is no evidence. The reason why they are not saying the same thing in front of the judges is because there are serious consequences when you stand in court and lie. This is classic Qannon, and conspiracy language. And it is right out of their playbook. All they have to do is sow doubt. It is a grave sin what they are doing and evangelicals are scooping it up by the shovel fulls and taking it in.
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