Trump Evangelical Advisers Back Voting Challenges But Stop Short of Alleging Fraud

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dgszweda's picture

The Quote:

"The election will be decided, he said, when the electors vote in December."

Is a fantasy.  Trump will fight this all the way to the end.  We said the voters would decide this.  Then we said the states will decide this when they certify their results.  Now we are saying the electors will decide this.  Trump is on very dangerous ground right now.  There is no fraud of any significance and he continues to peddle lies.  Now he is trying to influence county boards by calling people yesterday.  Today he invited MI lawmakers to the White House.  He is actively engaging states to see if they can overturn the vote by putting in their own electors.  This is getting crazy.  Every single step he is taking is out of a dictators play book.  It is almost scary.  I cannot believe evangelicals support this.  This is getting ridiculous.  This really truly points to the man that he has always been, but we were blinded.

G. N. Barkman's picture

What dictators do you have in mind?  Since the United States is a democratic republic with a unique system for electing presidents, I have trouble imagining what other dictators have done what Trump is now doing.  If what Trump is doing cannot be proven in a court of law, it's over.  If, however, even some of these charges can be verified, we've got a whole new ball game.  Why the rush to declare it over?  Let the system play out according to the Constitution, and then we'll know.  Even if his charges do not change the outcome, they may well serve a valuable purpose.  If there is fraud, it needs to be uncovered and dealt with, not ignored.  If there is no fraud, his groundless charges with no concrete evidence should assure millions of Americans that the election was fair.  Questions have been raised, and they need to be settled.  So once gain, why the rush to judgment?   

G. N. Barkman

John E.'s picture

After this evening's decision by the Federal Court in GA, Trump and his "crack" team are 1-32. And their lone "win", the setting aside of a few ballots in PA, was already happening. They're the Washington Generals of political campaigns. 

Seriously, though, those of you who keep saying "why rush to judgment", at what point do you start listening to those pointing out that the emperor has no clothes? And what do you say to the fact that Rudy and company loudly tout all this unquestionable evidence of voter fraud in front of the TV cameras but somehow manage to never include any of it in the suits and motions? They know that they can lie to the public but they can't to the courts. 

G. N. Barkman's picture

John, you are probably right, but again, what's the rush?  If Giuliani is whistling in the dark (and it looks to me like that is indeed the case), that will be obvious when nothing gains court traction.  But if his team has evidence that is convincing enough to get a hearing, we need to let it play out in court.  That's what's happening now, and you're right, Trump's team has a really bad record so far.  If they can't do any better, the charges of fraud will be obvious enough for most to agree the election was fair.  At what point do you say that the emperor has no clothes?  When the process has run its course.  Why is it necessary to declare this before all the appeals have been completed?  What's driving this?  Are you afraid that there may be some serious and provable fraud ahead, and you need to pressure Trump to concede quickly before it is uncovered?  If you have nothing to fear, why the need to short circuit the process?  But if there is fraud, we need to deal with it for the integrity of future elections.  If Rudy is making a fool of himself (which I think he probably is), let that run its course as well.  The country needs to see the folly displayed so that it won't easily arise in the future.

G. N. Barkman

G. N. Barkman's picture

Trump and company aren't the only ones cranking up the decibels.  Charges like "Dictator's Play Book" are both groundless and inflammatory.  Let's be willing to sit quietly and let this run its course.  Hopefully, any fraud that's real will be brought to light, and all groundless charges will be demonstrated to be foolish.  Isn't that what we all desire?  We really need to know what's actually going on here.

G. N. Barkman

John E.'s picture

What's the rush? That's not a valid question because there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. None. Zero. Zilch. Only assertions. Lots and lots of assertions. Whether any of us like it (and contrary to popular opinion, I am not happy that Joe Biden is our next president), Biden won fair and square. And Trump's attempts to meddle with and overthrow the process is fomenting violence and causing people to swallow conspiracy theories. Are you paying attention to the language of Metaxas, Syndey Powell, et al.? They're comparing this to 1775, declaring a new revolution. In the words of historian Jay Fliegelman, "The empire of influence is infinitely more powerful than the empire of force." Trump is using his influence to con his followers. What his endgame is, I do not know. Most likely to salve his ego; he can leave office knowing that 35-40% of Americans believe he is the rightful president. Deceit and manipulation should be shouted down by Christians. Not excused by "hey, what's the harm in waiting to see." 

JohnS's picture

Getting sworn affidavits and using them in suits filed clearly contradicts the claim of "never include any of it in the suits and motions".

JohnS's picture

Quite a few assertions in the above, but is "widespread" a necessary condition to not rush to declare one candidate the winner?  If choosing our leaders is the human bedrock of our government, a strong bias to be certain, which may require taking more time, is not only logical but wise.  Stewardship matters.

Also has a lot to do with how much one trusts the mainstream media to be actually publicizing the evidence.  Observing the MSM"s proven bias (simply study minutes of negative coverage of Trump cf. coverage of any sort - and that mostly positive - of Biden) against the incumbent administration, a healthy dose of skepticism about what is and is not being reported by them is warranted.

Lastly, wanting to take the time to see the facts is not the same as endorsing "deceit and manipulation" - charges which I chartiably view as conjecture since we don't actually know the facts. 

dgszweda's picture

This is not about fraud and never was.  Rudy, clearly stated in court, when asked by the PA judge whether this was about fraud, and he replied, "No!".  I am fine with the investigations.  What I am not fine with, is the lies that the team is purposedly pushing forward as a narrative.  They continue to get more outlandish.  But even beyond that, is Trumps approach to subvert the voting process.  He called the poll officials in MI directly (confirmed by the officials and the White House) to influence the certification process.  He has now invited the GOP lawmakers from MI to the White House (confirmed by the officials, and officially confirmed by the WH) in attempt to get them to place their own electors into the electoral college in order to drive an outcome that is not aligned to the voting results.  Both he and Rudy have laid out that option.  This is not about fraud, but about him winning at any cost, even if that means trying to subvert the normal process.  That is what is dangerous here.  He is hiding out in the WH, not doing anything and stewing about this whole loss.  Deaths are going up for COVID, and the administration is preventing Biden from starting the transition.  He is making changes in his last few days in order to make it difficult for Biden to transition.  He is trying to "burn the house down".  Everyone thinks he is for the evangelicals or the right, or for morals....  He is only 100% in it for himself and at the end of the day he cares nothing about evangelicals, the right, the country or anything else for that matter.  His level of narcissism is off the charts in my opinion.

The danger is that large swaths of the country believe that the election was fraudulent and stolen.  They will hold onto that, despite absolutely no evidence that this is the case.  Someone asked how Trump is acting like a dictator.  This is how it starts.  You take a democratic country, you question the legitimacy of the voting process and the new leader.  You create rabid levels of followers, and growing militias who are aligned to you.  You look for ways to subvert the legal process and try to stay in control (get lawmakers to appoint their own electoral individuals to vote for Trump regardless of the vote).  Do I think Trump will succeed?  No.  But the actions are very, very dangerous.

dgszweda's picture

JohnS wrote:

 

Lastly, wanting to take the time to see the facts is not the same as endorsing "deceit and manipulation" - charges which I chartiably view as conjecture since we don't actually know the facts. 

We do know the facts.  They are presented in court.  Which by the way, Trump has not been able to present as 32 of the 33 cases have been thrown out at the time of filing, or at the first hearing.  For what?  For a lack of any evidence that fraud was committed.  The story they are peddling is the just rehashed over and over with no evidence.  If there was something so terrible, as fraud on a scale unseen (which is how Rudy describes it), wouldn't at least one court case move forward with fraud.  Just one?  The far right continues to be gullible.  Many of the cases, the judges have scratched their head at what is actually being claimed.  The reason Rudy had to take over is that law firms are abandoning the cases, as they are getting close to contempt.  3 judges have already scolded the law firms as knowingly bringing frivolous lawsuits to court with no evidence.  I am looking at my Christian friends on Facebook and they are leaving that site to go to Parler and Newsmax, because those sites are feeding their narrative, or how they would like to say it, telling the truth, while all of the mainstream media, nonpartisan fact checking outlets, Republican and Democratic Secretaries of States, Republican and Democratic judges and everyone else is hiding everything.  Trump is the one individual who really has the truth, and he is on the verge of releasing evidence of widespread fraud and having the whole thing crumble, as he has stated many times.  Why does this sound famililar?  Ohhh, wait, that is the same narrative as Qannon.  But that can't be. Many of you have never heard of Qannon.  Ha!  Unbelievable!

John E.'s picture

Even Tucker Carlson is calling Sidney Powell out for zero evidence. And, John S., the facts are that Biden won and there has been zero evidence to the contrary introduced in court. Again, lies, deceit, and conspiracy theories - things followers of Jesus should condemn.

John E.'s picture

Sworn affidavits that have been tossed by judge after judge as hearsay, lacking in substance, or evidencing a lack of understanding of the law. Zero evidence. Trump and his cronies are conning you. 

RajeshG's picture

Some of us are not being conned. We understand that vital issues are at stake in what is taking place that are much bigger than which candidate becomes President.

What's yet at stake in key controversies over this presidential election is what kind of country we will be. Either we are going to be a country where laws are followed or we are going to be a country where laws can be set aside by people whom the laws do not authorize to do so.

Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.

dgszweda's picture

RajeshG wrote:

Some of us are not being conned.

No, you are being conned.  All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia.  Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud.  No lawsuits left in Georgia.  No lawsuits left in Michigan.  What you are seeing is that any old fool can stand up and say whatever they want in front of a podium with cameras and microphones.  But because we are a country that is about rule of law, there isn't much you can do legally when there is no evidence.  The reason why they are not saying the same thing in front of the judges is because there are serious consequences when you stand in court and lie.  This is classic Qannon, and conspiracy language.  And it is right out of their playbook.  All they have to do is sow doubt.  It is a grave sin what they are doing and evangelicals are scooping it up by the shovel fulls and taking it in.

RajeshG's picture

dgszweda wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

Some of us are not being conned.

 

 

No, you are being conned.  All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia.  Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud.  No lawsuits left in Georgia.  No lawsuits left in Michigan.  What you are seeing is that any old fool can stand up and say whatever they want in front of a podium with cameras and microphones.  But because we are a country that is about rule of law, there isn't much you can do legally when there is no evidence.  The reason why they are not saying the same thing in front of the judges is because there are serious consequences when you stand in court and lie.  This is classic Qannon, and conspiracy language.  And it is right out of their playbook.  All they have to do is sow doubt.  It is a grave sin what they are doing and evangelicals are scooping it up by the shovel fulls and taking it in.

No, I am not being conned. Officials in states do not have the authority to set aside state and federal laws at their pleasure. If SCOTUS and other courts do their jobs, the results of this election are going to change. That may not happen, but it should.

John E.'s picture

You wrote:

Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.

No one is saying that we hope those who violate the rule of law will succeed. The point is that there is no evidence of wide spread voter fraud to justify this intentional undermining of the system, sowing seeds of doubt and discontentment in voters, creating wider divisions, and setting the stage for violence. Zero evidence. Trump is the one who is evidencing a lack of concern for the rule of law. He's undermining the Constitution, the courts, and this country his supporters claim to love by this unhinged political absurdist theatre being played out in front of TV cameras. Again, and I don't understand why this is seemingly dismissed, what's being played out in the courts is entirely different. It's different from what Trump's team is angrily and confidently declaring on TV. It's different from the conspiracy theories being spread on social media. And it's different from what many here on SI continue to claim. The courts continue throwing suit after suit out because there is no evidence, a lack of understanding of voting laws, and, absurdly, because Trump's lawyers confess in court that there has been no widespread voter fraud.

Question: Yesterday, a federal court ruled that a statewide audit confirmed that Biden won the State of Georgia and that there was zero evidence of widespread voter fraud. They ruled that the election was conducted fairly and securely. Since you (and others) have professed fealty to the rule of law, do you accept the court's decision? Or, are you going to continue to push the narrative provided by Rudy G., Sidney Powell, and Trump's campaign during their emotionally charged press conferences? A narrative that contradicts what Trump's legal team is saying in court and contradicts their court filings and lawsuits. And here's the thing, even if you answer "yes", there are scores of Trump supporters who are going to angrily dismiss the court's decision because of Trump's actions and words. There was zero evidence from the beginning, and any support for this political absurdist theatre (with an endgame no one but Trump knows yet) aids in the chaos, division, undermining of this country's institutions, and potential violence that will be part and parcel of the result of all this.

RajeshG's picture

dgszweda wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

Some of us are not being conned.

 

 

No, you are being conned.  All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia.  Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud.  No lawsuits left in Georgia.  

In the recount, the machines were not the only issue at stake. As I understand it, the Secretary of State in GA entered into an agreement with Democrats that prevented the checking of signatures in the recount. Only the legislature has that authority--not the SOS. 

Had that agreement not been made and followed, the results of the recount would very likely have been different. SCOTUS or some lesser court must intervene and force a full recount with full signature verification checks. If they do not do that, the results of GA will be suspect.

RajeshG's picture

John E. wrote:

You wrote:

Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.

No one is saying that we hope those who violate the rule of law will succeed. The point is that there is no evidence of wide spread voter fraud to justify this intentional undermining of the system, sowing seeds of doubt and discontentment in voters, creating wider divisions, and setting the stage for violence. Zero evidence. Trump is the one who is evidencing a lack of concern for the rule of law. He's undermining the Constitution, the courts, and this country his supporters claim to love by this unhinged political absurdist theatre being played out in front of TV cameras. Again, and I don't understand why this is seemingly dismissed, what's being played out in the courts is entirely different. It's different from what Trump's team is angrily and confidently declaring on TV. It's different from the conspiracy theories being spread on social media. And it's different from what many here on SI continue to claim. The courts continue throwing suit after suit out because there is no evidence, a lack of understanding of voting laws, and, absurdly, because Trump's lawyers confess in court that there has been no widespread voter fraud.

Question: Yesterday, a federal court ruled that a statewide audit confirmed that Biden won the State of Georgia and that there was zero evidence of widespread voter fraud. They ruled that the election was conducted fairly and securely. Since you (and others) have professed fealty to the rule of law, do you accept the court's decision? Or, are you going to continue to push the narrative provided by Rudy G., Sidney Powell, and Trump's campaign during their emotionally charged press conferences? A narrative that contradicts what Trump's legal team is saying in court and contradicts their court filings and lawsuits. And here's the thing, even if you answer "yes", there are scores of Trump supporters who are going to angrily dismiss the court's decision because of Trump's actions and words. There was zero evidence from the beginning, and any support for this political absurdist theatre (with an endgame no one but Trump knows yet) aids in the chaos, division, undermining of this country's institutions, and potential violence that will be part and parcel of the result of all this.

You seem to be missing the point of what I am saying. There are election laws that were changed by people who should not have been able to change them. Only the legislatures of the states had that authority. SCOTUS must intervene to overrule all such actions. If they do not do so, then we will no longer be a country where the rule of law is followed.
 

A conservative Atlanta lawyer failed to win a court order halting certification of Georgia’s election results showing Joe Biden won the state over President Donald Trump by more than 12,000 votes.

U.S. District Judge Steven Grimberg on Thursday rejected a lawsuit by L. Lin Wood claiming Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and state election board members violated the constitutional rights of voters through the way they allowed election officials to process defective absentee ballots. Wood had sought an injunction and a hand recount in Georgia’s 159 counties.

Yes, this judge rejected the lawsuit, but that does not mean that there is not a valid dispute about the matter. I hope that Wood will keep fighting this battle.

AndyE's picture

I think Trump would be well served to concede the election as gracefully as he can, and then work on promoting some sort of election reform for mail-in ballots.  I think going through the process of verifying close election results is fine, but throwing around serious allegations without any real proof is not helping his credibility.  Nor was firing Christopher Krebs, the Homeland Security Cybersecurity Czar, who by all accounts within the industry (an industry in which I work) has really done a very good job, especially in the area of election security.  It’s too bad Trump went down this path, because, his term could have ended on a very high note with an imminent nation-wide vaccine distribution.  If he has any thoughts of running again in 4 years, he should do everything he can to make the country regret its decision, but this vaccine success is getting overshadowed by some very bad looks right now.

I do think we need better controls on mail-in ballots.  I’m not a fan of just mailing them out to everyone. I think that is ripe for abuse.  I also think there needs to be a bipartisan process that verifies signatures, addresses, eligibility (not dead, resident, turned in on time, etc), and a counting process that doesn’t go on-and-on.  To me, the two most suspicious things about this election are (1) the alleged low reject rate for mail-in ballots and (2) the surprising enthusiasm for Biden that produced such a large vote count for him.   

John E.'s picture

No, in fact, Georgia did not change election laws illegally. That's another of the Trump campaign's conspiracy theories/lies. A legal settlement was signed on March 6.

Andy E, your dislike of Biden seems like an odd foundation upon which to build a claim that something fishy must be going on because of the high voter turnout for Biden. Especially in the fact of the fact that Trump's lawyers have yet to provide any actual evidence of widespread voter fraud (did you see Tucker's rant last night? I'm assuming Trump is going to turn on him now). Have you considered that while Trump and the RNC were busy sowing the seeds for mistrusting this election, the DNC was busy doing the hard work of getting voters out (see Stacy Abrams in GA)? Or, and in combination, that Trump is so divisive and polarizing that many people didn't vote for Biden as much as vote against Trump? There are other simpler explanations than a conspiracy. Think Ockham's Razor. Also, the low reject rate? My word, I was a mail in voter and I was inundated for months with instructions on how to do it correctly. I would have to willfully done it incorrectly. Whether anyone likes it or not, the DNC did a masterful job of getting the word out and aiding people. And, regardless of what the conspiracy theories say, vote curing is not illegal.

John E.'s picture

Among other conspiracy theories/lies, over the last couple of days, Trump has tweeted out:

1. The conspiracy theory/lie that more votes were cast than there are voters in certain MI counties. That's a demonstrable lie.

2. The conspiracy theory/lie about the U.S. Army ceasing voting machine servers in Germany. Again, a flat out lie (and considering that he's the Commander in Chief, it's hard to say, "well, he just made a mistake").

Trump is a known liar, a conman, and people who in 2016 stated that are now swallowing his conspiracy theories and lies.

AndyE's picture

John E. wrote:
Andy E, your dislike of Biden seems like an odd foundation upon which to build a claim that something fishy must be going on because of the high voter turnout for Biden. Especially in the fact of the fact that Trump's lawyers have yet to provide any actual evidence of widespread voter fraud (did you see Tucker's rant last night? I'm assuming Trump is going to turn on him now). Have you considered that while Trump and the RNC were busy sowing the seeds for mistrusting this election, the DNC was busy doing the hard work of getting voters out (see Stacy Abrams in GA)? Or, and in combination, that Trump is so divisive and polarizing that many people didn't vote for Biden as much as vote against Trump? There are other simpler explanations than a conspiracy. Think Ockham's Razor. Also, the low reject rate? My word, I was a mail in voter and I was inundated for months with instructions on how to do it correctly. I would have to willfully done it incorrectly. Whether anyone likes it or not, the DNC did a masterful job of getting the word out and aiding people. And, regardless of what the conspiracy theories say, vote curing is not illegal.

Why do you think my suspicions are built upon my dislike of Biden?  What conspiracy theories did I promote?  All I said was that I was suspicious of a couple things, meaning I don’t understand how they happened. I’m not saying they didn’t happen, or that it’s not true, but that it seems odd to me.  I get the fact that people hate Trump and voted against him, but what I saw was the huge rallies all over the country for Trump and the relative low turnout for the Biden rallies.  That’s what I’m basing my surprise on, nothing else. It just seemed to me that Trump had way more voter enthusiasm behind him.  So, how Biden was able to pull off this victory, with such a high vote count, is a mystery to me.  Your answer is getting out the vote efforts by democrats.  Maybe you are right.  What I think happened is that the wide-spread mail in vote enabled millions of people to vote, who normally would not make the effort to vote.  Democrats were able to get ballots in the hands of their constituency, and get them turned in, in huge numbers.  Republicans basically voted the old fashioned by, by going to their polling place. It is possible that all this was on the up-and-up, but this is also new, and so taking a look at the process to make sure we do it right in the future seems like a valid effort.

Aaron Blumer's picture

EditorAdmin

RajeshG wrote:

Some of us are not being conned. We understand that vital issues are at stake in what is taking place that are much bigger than which candidate becomes President.

What's yet at stake in key controversies over this presidential election is what kind of country we will be. Either we are going to be a country where laws are followed or we are going to be a country where laws can be set aside by people whom the laws do not authorize to do so.

Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed. 

This is precisely true, and precisely why the "stolen election" narrative is anti-American and anti-rule-of-law. It's a question of "stories we want to believe" vs. evidence and law.

In a year with a whole lot of bad news, it's encouraging to me that facts and law are winning this one. Those who prefer their story over evidence and law are, no doubt, going to persist in some form or another. And Trump is probably going to keep encouraging them. Hopefully, as the futility (and probably sheer vindictiveness--what else could motivate such an obviously unwinnable series of battles?) of these legal battles becomes increasingly undeniable, Trump is increasingly marginalized.

The sooner conservatism and the GOP begin to recover and regain their senses, the better.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

TylerR's picture

Editor

I feel it my duty to pop back in here to remind everyone President Trump lost the election, that Joe Biden won, and nothing you write here or wish upon a star will ever change that ...

Carry on!

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist?

Robert Byers's picture

I am extremely skeptical of the posted election results, not because of Fox News (which I don't watch) or Rudy Guliani (who I don't trust) but because I understand history and statistics.  To believe that Biden won by the posted margins, you have to believe several unusual, unprecedented or inexplicable things all happened at the same time.

Historical

Depending on which report you read, there were either 26 or 27 true toss up races in the House of Representatives.  The Republican candidate won them all.  There were another 20 or so that leaned Republican (again the counts vary a little, but the point remains) and the Republicans won all of those as well.  There were about 25 that leaned Democrat.  The Republicans won 7 or 8 of those, and may well pick up 2 or 3 more when the dust has all settled.  In addition, the Republicans won all five of the toss up Senate races that have been decided--with two more pending the runoffs in Georgia.  NEVER before in US history has the losing presidential candidate had his party win all the contested seats in the House and Senate.  It could happen, and maybe this is the election where it did, but that's unprecedented. 

Statistical

In past elections the number of mail in ballots disqualified for various reasons has run 3-6% depending on the state.  In this election, with millions more mail in ballots than ever before, that number has dropped more than 1000%, and I'm not exaggerating.  The checks and balances on mail in votes that prevent fraud were basically disabled, and nearly all of them were accepted as valid.  Beyond that, the practice of mailing unsolicited ballots is such an open invitation to fraud that it calls everything into question.

Supposedly tons more Democrats voted by mail, giving Biden a huge edge there that overcame Trump's advantage on election day.  Yet in the states which register by party, the gap between ballot requests from the elephants and the donkeys was much closer than in past elections, with the Democrats not nearly as far ahead as normal.  Again maybe all those GOP mail in voters were Republicans who hated Trump and voted for Biden, but given the exit polling numbers on party support, that seems highly unlikely.  And statistical analysis of vote totals by precinct in the key states shows some very odd patterns.  Not absolute proof of cheating, but something that is very rare to find in numbers which have not been artificially adjusted, and as the French saying goes, it gives one furiously to think.

State Department

The US State Department lists stopping the counting of ballots as one of the major indicators of election fraud.  It may be a complete coincidence that the four states which basically are deciding this election all stopped counting ballots on election night with Trump in the lead, and resumed counting with huge spikes in Biden votes that put him ahead.  But it's something that, if it happened in another country, our government would view with extreme suspicion as an indication of likely cheating.  

You can discount all of this as conspiracy theories or wild speculation, but these are facts.  Maybe there are reasonable or at least somewhat plausible explanations for all these and the many more I could list.  However "shut up and accept it, kook" is not an explanation.

 

 

 

dgszweda's picture

AndyE wrote:

I do think we need better controls on mail-in ballots.  I’m not a fan of just mailing them out to everyone. I think that is ripe for abuse.  I also think there needs to be a bipartisan process that verifies signatures, addresses, eligibility (not dead, resident, turned in on time, etc), and a counting process that doesn’t go on-and-on.  To me, the two most suspicious things about this election are (1) the alleged low reject rate for mail-in ballots and (2) the surprising enthusiasm for Biden that produced such a large vote count for him.   

I get your concerns.  And having concerns is legitimate.  Propogating lies of widespread fraud are another thing.  Which is what you see Trump doing and what you see most evangelicals and the right sitting by and allowing it to happen.  When we started, I also had concerns about mail-in ballots.  And I have no doubt that there were isolated causes of fraud.  We live in a sinful nation with sinful people, and that is going to happen, no matter what is done.  With that said, it increasingly became clear that this was not the case.  The fact that practically none of the lawsuits brought forward allege fraud, and the fact that all of them except one based on a very tiny procedural issue lost, further supported this.  In my opinion, given the scrutiny, this was probably one of the most secure elections, although there is always room to grow and become better.

The large vote for Biden was not unexpected.  In fact, everything that played out, played out almost exactly the way the polls were showing.  Walk in voting on voting day was going to be predominately Republican.  Mail in voting, absentee voting and early voting was going to be predominately Democratic.  Biden was leading in the polls up to the day of election.  Everything played out.  I think in the end this was less about Biden, and more about anti-Trump.  I had high hopes for Trump early in his term, but it quickly became clear that he cared less about the right, abortion rights, conservative issues, religious issues.... and more about creating a narrative, creating a bubble around him that acted as an echo chamber, and a focus on getting praise and attention.  He craved the crowds and worship that he received from the right and the religious leaders.  What we are seeing play out in the last two weeks is classic Trump.  The reason why most people didn't see it was that he was not backed into a corner like he is today, but this is playing out to the same behaviors he had the last 3.5 years.  He lies, lies, lies, just like the ruler of this world.  And we are okay with that, because he throws us a bone here and there.  Christians took it hook line and sinker, just as most of them will be deceived by the AntiChrist.  He only cares about himself and that is it.  All the rest of the care that he shows is just there to ultimately feed his narcissism and focus on his pride.  You see that by watching him sulk in the WH without any concern about the virus or anything else going on.  Scripture is replete with God's anger about this type of rule.  I have just finished reading Micah and it was a bit eye opening.

dgszweda's picture

Robert Byers wrote:

You can discount all of this as conspiracy theories or wild speculation, but these are facts.  Maybe there are reasonable or at least somewhat plausible explanations for all these and the many more I could list.  However "shut up and accept it, kook" is not an explanation.

Sorry Robert, but what you explained is the very foundation of conspiracy theories.  "This is most likely not true, because of some unusual things".  Nothing that you pointed out showed a single vote was fraudelently processed.  The very nature of conspiracy theories is to only show doubt.  I won't go through all of your points above because I don't have time.  With that said, mail in ballots had a lot of checks and balances.  Here is one, poll worker who discusses all of the checks and balances that they had to go through.  Again, with the millions and millions of dollars that the campaign, Trump and others are spending and the mountains of evidence that Rudy has, I find it very funny that all 34 of the lawsuits that have been thrown out have cited and total and complete lack of evidence of any fraud.  But we can ride the train on this one all day.  I have a mountain of Qannon sites for you to spend some time on.

https://www.tmj4.com/news/election-2020/checks-and-balances-inside-the-l...

 

AndyE's picture

dgszweda wrote:

AndyE wr He only cares about himself and that is it.  All the rest of the care that he shows is just there to ultimately feed his narcissism and focus on his pride.  You see that by watching him sulk in the WH without any concern about the virus or anything else going on.  

I think he does genuinely care about America and has worked hard to make things better, but I have to admit that I have soured on him a bit after the election.  I have appreciated that he does not cave on issues like most Republicans have, but that head-strong resolve is not helping him now. 

I watched a bit of the Biden press conference yesterday and just couldn't believe America got behind that man.  I think America is going to have buyer's remorse sooner than later. I don't know how he makes it through his full term.  

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