Grace and Truth in LGBT Engagement

[M. Osborne]

Susan R wrote:

If it’s all about Christ, what difference does it make if they are gay?

Theologically, yes, sin is sin and the gospel is the gospel. But a person who is thinking in terms of identity may hear the call to repentance differently.

I agree, as long as we are trying to bridge a communication or understanding gap. Although the LGBTQ label is one people apply to themselves, I think quite often we are guilty of using labels to keep others at arm’s length.

[TylerR]

Greg wrote:

I would argue that identity is not as unique to LGBT issues as we might think. All of us justify our sin to a greater or lesser extent by saying some form of, “Well, that’s just who I am.” (Now the reasons a person thinks they are who they are vary from biological to environmental to cultural to parental, etc.) An alcoholic excuses his sin by saying “that’s who I am.” A person prone to anger says “that’s who I am.” And so on.

Perhaps, but is that the way we should think about our sins? Is it intrinsic to “who we are?” I think a better way to frame this would be to admit, “Yeah, this issue (insert sin here) is my problem.”

The sin is not who you are; it’s simply a particular problem for you. I think any attempt to equate acts of sin with “self-identity” is going down the wrong road.

It may be “who you are” in the sense that this particular sin happens to be your particular “thorn in the flesh.” But, it’s hardly “who you are” in an intrinsic sense, is it?

Tyler, I so appreciate your comments and thoughts, but I wanted to address what I believe is an important nuance.

Tyler R said:

I don’t think a congregation is primarily about community, acceptance, relationships and a “movement.”

The church may not PRIMARILY be about community, but it is certainly an important secondary purpose. The church is many things (I am not going to give references, most you are familiar with these quotations, and, besides, I am feeling lazy:) ) — the household of faith, the pillar and support of truth, the body of Christ, members of the Body of Christ, brothers and sisters, saints, friends, etc.

I would argue that a more Biblical term for community is “fellowship” or its alternate translation, “participation.”

This refers not just to an activity, but the group of people who participate in the activity, bonding, sharing, and all the ‘one anothers” that the New Testament emphasizes — greeting one another, praying for one another, etc.

Certain aspects (of what the church is about) get the spotlight depending upon the need, the culture, etc. In addition, some churches do have more actual “body life” than others, some are more of less emphatic about defending the truth, etc. The Puritans, for example, did not have to be as aggressive at fighting liberalism as we might be today. At one time, churches pushed evangelism on Sunday nights because bored lost people were willing to attend evening services.

Many of these terms for the church are relational and horizontal and speak of community. As a matter of fact, the rubric for what is to happen in church is clearly stated in I Corinthians 14:26b, “Let all things be done for building up.” This reinforces the idea of both vertical and horizontal concerns. We are a peculiar people who are building up and nurturing other believers. This is very relational, and many Christians have always found their primary sociological identity as part of the household of faith.

So I would argue that the church is partly about community and that community is important. I also think that including lost people in our fellowship (not as members) is a good thing. Many people come to know the Lord gradually (although regeneration is at a point in time). I Corinthians 14:24 implies that unbelievers should be welcome.

On another note, there is an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed. What about Christian parents who view the church as modeling a godly, proper lifestyle? Moms and dads are concerned that their children reach adulthood without gender confusion.

Anyone want to discuss this aspect? Or is it an issue of days gone by and no longer relevant because of our nation’s “empty closets.”

So TylerR, you’ve spent significant time pointing out what’s wrong with what Caleb said are you saying then that we can gain no value in what he is saying? It seems he is using his story, the one God’s allowed him to live, to help Christian interact with those in LGBTQ community. I’ve read his book, listened to the complete video cast and spoken with him personally. I agree with the broad point you are trying to make but a bigger question is how can we benefit from what he has to say to us? We clearly know that the contemporary church has done a terrible job in interacting with these people.

So, please speak to what you’ve learned from watching this video and how it might impact you as you engage your community there in the Northwest?

TylerR Regarding “What are your thoughts on the framing issue?”

Appreciated what you are saying but with all graciousness I’d like to say you are looking at this simplisticly, not that it is a simple consideration because it is not. But your are looking at it through the lenses of the community beng Christians and that’s sort of “insider local church”. So yes, but in our current climate here in the states we still have an attractional opportunity within the weekend activities of our churches. Those activities include insiders, Believers, but also outsiders non-believers. So, for our church we plan the teaching in our gather for Christians but plan for non-Christians to be in attendance. We always have people in our gathering who are not yet Christians. They may begin to identify themselves with our church before they actually believe, so they would be part of our community before they are truly part of the Church. We always have LBGTQ folks along with adulators and alcoholics and drug abusers attending so we wrestle with and expect we are going to be dealing behaviors that are going to be uncomfortable. I wish I knew more about the church in Corinth then what we do as I think they were working through these things too. So I think there is a communal aspect of the church as spoken of in Acts and their is the “Called Out Assembly” which should be looking at this through the two planes. Some day we might be meeting is secret and then things will look a little differently then they do today on a Sunday. Just my thought. Once again I appreciate what you are saying but thought the direction the conversation went one way and had taken sort of took away the learning opportunity of listening to Caleb’s story as someone who is dealing with this issue daily with real people who know and are known by his church.

The think I wrestle with is handling non-Christian LBGTQ and those that identify as Christian. Those are two very different conversations and super messy.

Yes, yes, I agree with you completely. You did two things, one you had the conversation. How many times do we just miss that. Second you answered to question at hand that will allow you to speak more fully at another time and maybe in a better environment to help more. I think the Apostle Paul was an amazing example to us on contextualizing. My point on the difficulty in speaking to a person who is making choices that are not aligned with our identity in Christ who are not yet a follower of Jesus you can talk to the point of finding your identity in Jesus. Someone who claims to follow Jesus has just been much harder conversations for me in my experiences.

Good, intelligent conversation, everyone.

But I just can’t leave this community thing alone. The Dallas guys are right, IMO, with all due respect.

My issue here isn’t primarily with the LGBT as much as it is the very nature ot he church.

Tyler said, the horizontal aspects of the church community is to support the primary mission - to know God better, and to be better and more effective witnesses for His Gospel.

Therein lies a great divide. Many would agree with this idea. My problem is that being part of a church is much more than getting a job done. And, although I am a big believer (as are probably all of us) that the church needs to deeply teach the Word, those things are only a part of the whole.

Sometimes a church can put effort into loving someone (say a widow or someone who has lost a child), and the primary motive is not evangelism nor is it to get to know God better (although with imaginative thinking, one could conjure such a motive). To love your brothers and sisters JUST TO LOVE THEM can be an end in itself, at least at times.

People who are achievement oriented tend to emphasize achievement (like Martha), people who are relationally oriented emphasize the importance of loving and relating to others in ways other than evangelism (like Mary). Others favor passion or deep thinking. They all have a part to play in church life.

There are certainly more commandments or admonitions about internal fellowship, internally relating to one another, being a spiritual family, etc. in the New Testament epistles than there are about external things like evangelism or even being a good witness. That is not to say that all these commands/admonitions are equal. The epistles tended to address problems within church families (i.e. local churches). We might be right to elevate commands to evangelize, be a good testimony, etc., above greeting one another, weeping and rejoicing with one another (the family-like things), but we are wrong to dismiss them as negligible or not part of what the church is about.

The church lost its community/fellowship aspects when it became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire, and the Reformers did not reclaim it. Yet lesser movements (Plymouth Brethren, Anabaptists, Gene Getz, Ray Stedman etc.) have done so — but they have never been the mover/shaker churches that get watched and imitated. But I would argue that, strictly from a New Testament viewpoint, the church is intended to be a true spiritual family, a group in which to find ones social identity. I agree with Tyler’s earlier remarks, that the church is not PRIMARILY about this, however. But it should be more the case that we typically see, IMO.

I don’t believe LGBTQ is an issue that requires more kid gloves, more tenderness, or more empathy than you show in any other context. It requires those same skills. In large respect, I believe this has “become” a tough issue, when it really isn’t one, at all. It isn’t as hard as so many make it out to be. It’s just as hard as all the other people you need to reach, which is plenty hard enough, all by itself!

Whomever you’re speaking to, you have to contextualize and take advantage of the time you have - without diluting or distorting the Good News. Whatever else needs to be said, those principles are universal.

If anyone on this thread hasn’t read Rosario Butterfield’s book “The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert”, and you have any serious interest in ministering to the LGBTQ community (or even if you aren’t), you should stop everything you’re doing, put the computer down, and go buy and read it. Now.

I’ll wait.
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Seriously, there’s no ‘magic trick’ for counseling LGBTQ people. You have to suppress whatever self-righteous gag reflex that you may have towards people who are trapped in sin, admit that your heterosexual sins are just as morally repellent and offensive to God (including said self-righteousness) as theirs are, and act like you care about them like people instead of straw men, ‘the enemy’, or whatever other objectified category you put them in.

If you do that, you’ll be able to minister to them. If not, well, enjoy your self-righteousness, but keep in mind that God doesn’t.

This is not hard. Intimidating? Sure, but no harder than anyone else you should be counseling to overcome sin.

Yes of course in a sense LGBT people are sinners just like everyone else, and in a sense our Gospel witness to them is no different than it is to everyone else.

And yet, we must be aware of the unique temptations that they face and consider that as we evangelize and minister to them. This article makes the point perfectly.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/an-alternative-script-for-same-sex-attraction