What the Marines Can Teach the Church
“While reading [Making the Corps], I noticed surprising applications to the church of Jesus on energetic discipling, identity thinking and cultivating appetites.” What the Marines Can Teach the Church
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[Ron Bean]Sometimes they’re wiser than we are.
So Ron, what you are saying is to use these evil street smarts in Christian teaching?
Even if one doesn’t know the meaning of this somewhat obscure parable several aspects tell us this is not what Jesus meant.
1. The manager praised the dishonest servant, Jesus called him dishonest.
2. Even though the text says “disciples”, these seem to be undifferentiated disciples. Notice how Luke uses “disciples”, “His disciples”, ” the apostles”. In the context the Pharisees were among and part of Jesus’ disciples at this time.
3. The Old Covenant and nation of Israel is the spiritual context. Just as in the early Jewish church they had everything in common, this, it seems, was not a feature in the Hellenistic and Gentile Church. The context is different. Jesus was telling the Pharisees to be generous to the poor of Israel and so evidence of redemption in that context.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
[alex o.]“If righteousness were through the Law, then Christ died for no purpose” (Gal.2.21)
Then:
“If the Marines’ methods can teach true self-discipline (and, therefore true righteousness), then the Holy Spirit is superfluous”
What’s the difference?
This is just a carnal method much like using business practices to grow a church.
Alex,
What do you mean by “this” in that last sentence? How about directly engaging the ideas in the original article? Nowhere did I suggest that we use the Marine’s methods, certainly not the way you reference above. My specific points were: 1) Each of us should be energetically, attentively and personally discipling others; 2) that discipling should include changing our thinking so that we bring our actions in line with who we have been made to be in Christ; and 3) that discipling should include cultivating an appetite for Scripture rather than merely conveying its content.
Is that carnal? If so, why do you think so?
[alex o.]Ron Bean wrote:
Sometimes they’re wiser than we are.
So Ron, what you are saying is to use these evil street smarts in Christian teaching?
Even if one doesn’t know the meaning of this somewhat obscure parable several aspects tell us this is not what Jesus meant.
1. The manager praised the dishonest servant, Jesus called him dishonest.
2. Even though the text says “disciples”, these seem to be undifferentiated disciples. Notice how Luke uses “disciples”, “His disciples”, ” the apostles”. In the context the Pharisees were among and part of Jesus’ disciples at this time.
3. The Old Covenant and nation of Israel is the spiritual context. Just as in the early Jewish church they had everything in common, this, it seems, was not a feature in the Hellenistic and Gentile Church. The context is different. Jesus was telling the Pharisees to be generous to the poor of Israel and so evidence of redemption in that context.
Alex,
I think Ron is saying the same thing Jesus was saying. You seem to have overlooked Jesus’ own commentary on His parable. Notice Luke 16:8: “And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.” What we understand Jesus’ point to be must be consistent with that.
You are overlooking what Jesus did say and inserting things He did not say. Jesus never mentioned anything about the poor of Israel in this passage. He did not mention the Old Covenant. Everything that the shrewd manager did was essentially in self interest, so I don’t know how you get generosity out of that. Can the sons of this age be wiser than the sons of light? Jesus seems to think so. I think that was Ron’s point, and I agree, don’t you?
[Stephen Enjaian]Can the sons of this age be wiser than the sons of light? Jesus seems to think so. I think that was Ron’s point, and I agree, don’t you?
That was my only point. The one point that Jesus made. Sometimes they’re wiser than we are.
Thanks
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
How you get a bunch of teenagers (who are used to staying up late and sleeping in) all on the same schedule?
- The night before they ship off to boot camp (there are two …. Paris Island and San Diego), the kids are to be at a motel near the airport by a certain time. So in our case we dropped our kid off at the motel.
- They are closely supervised at the motel and then bussed to the airport together.
- Arriving at boot camp (my son went to San Diego MCR depot), they stand on the “yellow footprints” and are swore in (image below). Haircuts follow.
- Then they are kept up all night and all the next day.
- By bedtime the 2nd day they are exhausted and fall into their racks..
- Now everyone is on the same schedule
My son went in a week after H.S. graduation. He had been running and working out for 6+ months. He was 180 when he left for boot camp and 165 lbs at boot camp graduation.
Interesting thing about Parris Island … it is almost the same size as Hilton Head (and they are close geographically). Hilton Head is fully developed … and Parris Island is primitive. It is a beautiful place.
[Stephen Enjaian] You are overlooking what Jesus did say and inserting things He did not say. Jesus never mentioned anything about the poor of Israel in this passage. He did not mention the Old Covenant. Everything that the shrewd manager did was essentially in self interest, so I don’t know how you get generosity out of that. Can the sons of this age be wiser than the sons of light? Jesus seems to think so. I think that was Ron’s point, and I agree, don’t you?
Lk. 3.1-14 gives the “spiritual context” notice especially vs. 10-14. Of course there are many other places in scripture that inform about the life and times of Jesus.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
….it’s worth noting that on one side, Paul uses the picture of the soldier repeatedly as a picture of being in Christ, but at the same time—John the Baptist’s comment to soldiers and other passages—the profession of a soldier was not seen as an inherently honorable one. That’s part of why the Founding Fathers did not allow funding for an army longer than two years—they did not want a standing army and the difficulties Tyler talked about dealing with. So Biblically speaking, I’d argue that it is simultaneously true that the authors (Author) use it as a picture of Christian life, and also a somewhat disreputable profession.
On the light side; Jim’s picture of his son being shaved reminds me of nothing so much as medieval tonsure, and I had the pleasure of driving through the Divernon Mountain Range while on vacation. Sorry I didn’t stop and say “hi”, Tyler!
(Divernon IL is actually pretty much flat as a pancake)
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[alex o.]Jim wrote:
The Warrior Ethos: Why We Leave No One Behind
In contrast to Kick ‘em when they are down
Anecdote: Under rocket attack: fellow Marine threw my son to ground and fell upon him to protect him. To my son, that man is a lifelong friend.
Can we apply principles from business and the military to the local church? Not if one wants to keep “life” in the church.
The personal example you cited could be due to the soldier’s personal pathos and not due to training he received.
Alex,
You might not have realized it, but I do agree with your first statement above. Where I disagree is that my article was applying principles from the military. Energetic discipling, identity thinking and cultivating appetites are Biblical ideas. I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the Marines are using those ideas (well) in their particular context. The church has often neglected its own principles. So in that way the Marines (sons of this age) are wiser than the church (sons of light).
As to your second statement above, Jim’s personal example of the soldier who protected his son, why could it not be both?
Discussion