What the Marines Can Teach the Church

Swore often, drank heavily, had sex often with multiple partners, visited strip clubs regularly, and were often divorced.

The blog writer left that part out.

Mark

Corporal, USMC, 1993-1997

Point well taken, Mark. Yes, I left that and a lot of other parts out, good and bad. Sadly, even Marines have not escaped the degrading effects of culture, popular and otherwise. That many Marines do not uphold the core values does not negate the Marine culture. That culture has been highly successful in accomplishing its military mission.

My purpose was to draw attention to some positive lessons we could learn as Christians.

I think military folks are horrible role models, especially if they’re in the 18-25 range. I also think we’re in grave danger of canonizing military members as saints, when they’re just like everybody else.

Tyler Robbins

Master-at-Arms 1st Class, U.S. Navy (2002-2012)

By the way, Mark, I arrested a whole bunch of Marine’s from strip clubs and bars! I particularly remember one drunken Staff Sergeant who impugned both my mother and my ancestry, and challenged me to a hand-to-hand fight to the death before bursting into tears after he was handcuffed.

[TylerR]

I think military folks are horrible role models, especially if they’re in the 18-25 range. I also think we’re in grave danger of canonizing military members as saints, when they’re just like everybody else.

Tyler,

If all you got from my article is that military people are saints and role models, then please reread it a little more carefully, because you completely missed the point! The Marines are not the church. My point is that the way the Marine culture is instilled in recruits holds important lessons for the church.

In fact, not even everything about how recruits are taught is exemplary for the church. Drill instructors are not exactly models of gentleness, kindness, and humility! I chose specific elements of Marine culture and how it is transmitted—not everything. How about commenting on what I did write instead of what I did not write?

There are two disagreements I have about your article in general:

1. I believe you have been influenced by pro-military propaganda in your description of Marine bootcamp. Tom Ricks is a good author. I particularly liked his book The Fiasco and his other work on the surge on Iraq. But, I think there is a very real problem with mythologizing the military in this country, particularly among the Christian conservatives.
2. In particular, I believe it is a terrible mistake to equate military culture with Christian service. People become Christians because they have been fundamentally changed by Jesus Christ; they used to be rebel sinners and now they’re slaves for Christ. In contrast, people join the military either to get something (college money, travel, trade experience, etc) or out of patriotism. The goals and motivations are quite different, and I think it’s a poor comparison. I think it hearkens back to a whitewashing of the military culture in conservative Christian circles.

Now, to specifics:

1. Disciple-making. Military culture, in bootcamp at least, is transmitted by threats and intimidation, which is calculated to instill an ethos of camaraderie. If you don’t believe me, then you haven’t been to bootcamp. My division commander took great pleasure in forcing the entire compartment to awaken each morning to the sound of dice clattering on the floor. If we weren’t up before the clattering stopped, he took the sum total of the two dice, multiplied by 10, and made us do that number of 8-ct body builders. More often than not, recruits banded together out of common hatred of the division commander. To put it mildly, this is not a model for Christian discipleship. I would be curious to hear your take on so-called “Christian bootcamps” for rebellious teens.
2. Identity thinking. This is where your article makes an excellent point. I will always be proud that I was in the Navy, even if I hated it many times. Are Christians proud to be Christians? Is it a badge of honor? Good question.
3. Cultivating appetites. I am on the fence about this one. I believe your overarching point was that “the Marines, for example, not only teach commitment, but also instill in recruits the dispositions of self-discipline and self sacrifice that sustain commitment.” That’s a common refrain, but I’m really not sure it’s true. I believe the disciplined structure of military life itself is more of a factor here than any self-discipline. In other words, MA3 Billy Joe Bob isn’t motivated, dedicated and determined simply because he’s a great Sailor - he’s helped along by the disciplined culture and expectations of military life. If you sever MA3 Billy Joe Bob from the military umbilical cord, will he still perform? Even then, MA3 Billy Joe Bob is one out of 100 - the vast majority of military folks are like anybody else; more thn a bit lazy, shiftless and not too determined at all. I know - I arrested a lot of them.

The bit about cultivating appetites is your best point in the article. Is the local church a place where Christian discipline is being instilled and something is expected of the people? Now, here is some food for thought! The crucial difference though, is this:

• In the military, a Sailor is under contract to be there and there will be consequences for disobedience. A leader doesn’t have to be so good at persuasion to lead well in the military; he can get by with issuing orders on many occasions and by the force of his own example.
• In the local church, a Christian is there by choice and the consequences for a lazy spiritual life are much less immediate or forceful than the military analogy. Moreover, a Pastor has to really be good at persuasion in this realm. Personal example is key too, obviously, but you can’t issue blanket orders. They’ll go ignored.

The key thing to consider going forward is this - how can a Pastor successfully instill this kind of disciplined culture in his local church?

Tyler,

As a former Marine Staff Sergeant and a current Navy Reserve Chaplain, I agree with what you’re saying about the church (especially fundamentalists) being influenced by pro-military propaganda. That’s one reason why I barely mentioned Memorial Day on Sunday and would never wear my uniform to preach in outside of required Navy/Marine Corps functions (which some people on Sunday suggested I do). So, it does raise the hairs on the back of my neck whenever someone starts comparing the church with the military. I love the Marine Corps and being a Marine, and I love being a Navy Chaplain, but there is no place inside of the church for the most part to bring those attitudes and I have intentionally tried to downplay that side of myself as a pastor (some would say unsuccessfully). Also, while the way Mark Smith describes the Marines he served with makes me cringe, because I know many who don’t fit that description, I do understand somewhat where he is coming from with that comment as another reason why lumping military descriptions onto the church is unnecessary and counterproductive.

That being said, as a Marine I do also get what Stephen is saying, and I have read the article. I do agree with his first point on identity thinking about the difference that Marine Corps boot camp is at least attempting to make that changes the inside mindset and instills the most important quality of being able to look yourself in the mirror and say, “I am a United States Marine.” That hopefully changes how you carry yourself, do your job, fight, etc. I know I’m biased, but having spent 11 years with Marines and now 11 years with Sailors, I feel pretty safe saying the Marine Corps does a pretty good job changing your mindset about how you see yourself and the Navy doesn’t (at least not at 8 weeks of boot camp). There is a huge difference in obedience to orders, pride in appearance, and an overall identity as a Marine than that of a Sailor or a Soldier who are far more likely to identify themselves by either their job in the Navy or their unit in the Army. Because of instilling that identity as a Marine, there does tend to be less need to put in external disciplinary actions for those basics of being in the Marine Corps because they become part of who you are. As a Christian, there are certain patterns and responses to our life that become part of who we are because of our identity with Jesus Christ, so in that narrow sense, I agree with the point being made. Also, I am speaking totally in generalities here, you can find bad apples in any service or MOS/NEC (military job specialty), and the average American culture has greatly affected the recruits coming into all of our Armed Forces even since I went through boot camp 22 years ago.

While I may tend to agree at one point, it is tenuous at best to use the connection between the two since there are plenty of us in the Military who know that the picture painted by an outsider is not always what the reality is, and I completely disagree that boot camp style discipline should have any model in the church for discipleship. In fact, I would even argue that generally past boot camp, there are very limited circumstances even in a military context where that form of drill instructor discipline is best.

So, I guess I’m saying that I actually disagree with the section that Tyler agreed with parts of and agreed with the section he disagreed with the most strongly. However, I completely agree that the military analogy is strained and best not used.

[TylerR]

There are two disagreements I have about your article in general:

1. I believe you have been influenced by pro-military propaganda in your description of Marine bootcamp. Tom Ricks is a good author. I particularly liked his book The Fiasco and his other work on the surge on Iraq. But, I think there is a very real problem with mythologizing the military in this country, particularly among the Christian conservatives.
2. In particular, I believe it is a terrible mistake to equate military culture with Christian service.

Tyler,

I appreciate that you seriously engaged my points. You are right, I have not been to boot camp. But one of my sons recently graduated, so I was able to compare his experiences with what I had read and, to a limited extent, get a fuller perspective. From your perspective, I can understand why you think I have been too much persuaded by military propaganda. But I fear you are still misreading what I am saying.

I was making broad comparisons and drawing general lessons. You are right—military culture is not the equivalent of Christian culture. But they are similar in broad ways that allow us to learn helpful lessons. Perhaps you have read what I wrote the way many Christians read Jesus’ parables; over analyzing the details so that the main point is overshadowed. For example, by over analyzing the details of Jesus’ parable in Luke 16 you could argue that Jesus used a poor example and you could conclude that He was condoning dishonesty. However imperfectly, I was trying to do something like Jesus was doing.

You made a valid point about the limits of instilling self-discipline in the military. Even the Marines, a human organization, cannot transform people’s hearts. (You might be overstating your point, though). Many people have greatly benefited for a lifetime from military discipline). But my point is the same. The lesson is still the same for the church, even more so because the Holy Spirit is the decisive agent.

I think you are on the right track with your conclusion. In answer to your final question, a good one, I would steer you back to what I said about how Scripture is taught and could be taught.

Thank you for pushing me on this. Hopefully, the exchanges have brought helpful clarity.

Grace.

Personally, appreciated the article. It’s always interesting to me how people want to define a group by its worst constituents rather than its best or average ones… though they do not want people do define the groups they are in that way. (The famous “Christians are just hypocrites” comes mind. Of course many of them are, but we don’t want this to define what a Christian is… and rightfully so!)

One thing I took away from the article: the Marines are not afraid to value discipline, authority, and duty. The modern church could definitely stand to learn from that. (It’s clear from a comprehensive reading of the epistles, that the apostles were not afraid of these concepts either!)

Five dollars if you know where that quote is from, and can complete the line …

Aaron wrote:

It’s always interesting to me how people want to define a group by its worst constituents rather than its best or average ones… though they do not want people do define the groups they are in that way

I have to assume that’s directed at Mark and I. I’ll say this much, and I beg Stephen’s forgiveness:

• It is a fact that most enlisted military members (particularly the young and single ones) go out together, drink, have pre-marital sex, swear, and commit all manner of immoral acts. This is not maligning the group by the bad actions of a few. It’s a fact. Barracks life is immoral and bad. BAD. My characterization isn’t a smear job. It’s a fact. Take college dorm life, transport it to a foreign country or an exotic foreign port, throw in nonexistent drinking laws, and the excitement of military life, stir, add seasoning and the fact that all parties involved are young, trim and fit, and tell me what you’ll get. Anybody who’s been in the military can tell you what you’ll get, and you can imagine the rest …
• It’s also a fact that many Christians know almost no doctrine, are shallow believers, and are not plugged into their local churches. That doesn’t mean they don’t go to church. It means they aren’t discipled and plugged in. That’s a fact.

This doesn’t define a military member, but it’s an honest and frank look at the lifestyle of an average 18-yr old serving overseas. Likewise for the Christian example. Not trying to be rude, but the rose-colored glasses need to come off when it comes to the military.

Amen to all you said. I’m not so sure I agree with you about the pay. I was a 27 year old E-6, making $58,000 stateside. Downrange or overseas, you make much more. Of course, it’s not “enough” to put up with what you do, but it’s not bad.

[Ben Howard]

Tyler,

As a former Marine Staff Sergeant and a current Navy Reserve Chaplain, I agree with what you’re saying about the church (especially fundamentalists) being influenced by pro-military propaganda. That’s one reason why I barely mentioned Memorial Day on Sunday and would never wear my uniform to preach in outside of required Navy/Marine Corps functions (which some people on Sunday suggested I do). So, it does raise the hairs on the back of my neck whenever someone starts comparing the church with the military. I love the Marine Corps and being a Marine, and I love being a Navy Chaplain, but there is no place inside of the church for the most part to bring those attitudes and I have intentionally tried to downplay that side of myself as a pastor (some would say unsuccessfully). Also, while the way Mark Smith describes the Marines he served with makes me cringe, because I know many who don’t fit that description, I do understand somewhat where he is coming from with that comment as another reason why lumping military descriptions onto the church is unnecessary and counterproductive.

While I may tend to agree at one point, it is tenuous at best to use the connection between the two since there are plenty of us in the Military who know that the picture painted by an outsider is not always what the reality is, and I completely disagree that boot camp style discipline should have any model in the church for discipleship. In fact, I would even argue that generally past boot camp, there are very limited circumstances even in a military context where that form of drill instructor discipline is best.

However, I completely agree that the military analogy is strained and best not used.

Ben,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I understand why the Marines who have commented have been critical. But again, I think you are reading things that I did not write or intend. I did not say that drill instructor discipline should be incorporated in church. I said that Christians should be energetically and personally discipling other Christians, that each of us should be receiving the energetic and personal discipling attention of other Christians. In that sense, and that sense alone, we should learn from the drill instructors.

I was not making a one-for-one, blanket comparison between the Corps and the church, except perhaps in certain specifically defined ways, as in the above example. By the way, if the Marines should not be used to teach lessons in these areas, then perhaps Jesus’ parable of the shrewd manager in Luke 16 was an inappropriate analogy for disciple living, since Jesus held up for emulation a man who actually cheated his employer. If you read Jesus’ parable the way it seems you are reading my post, that’s what you will get from it.

I plead with you and other pastors who read the post, please consider: are you teaching the Bible so that people simply observe what you learned, or are you engaging them directly in the text with provocative questions that give them the joy of discovery? Are you cultivating the identity thinking that Scripture lays out? Are you modeling and fostering energetic, attentive discipling?

No pay would be enough for being downrange. The pay in general, though, isn’t bad. My own default idea of deployment means ships, not desert sand, though!