Israel "is the only nation in the world that has the promise of God's protection"

Other than the possibility of Daniel recognizing the fulfillment of the 70 year (give or take aa few years) captivity, there are very few eschatological experts in the Bible who understood prophecy even as it was being fulfilled in front of them.

[Paul J. Scharf]

I have made my points, and I am officially signing off on this one!

Every Blessing,

Thanks Paul. Sorry to see you go. It was just getting interesting. Blessings.

[Jim]

Paul J. Scharf wrote:

Please tell me WHERE ISRAEL IS when this happens.

HINT, HINT: Ezekiel 36:24

I’m not saying that God has not providentially moved (Harry Truman … et al) … but I just am not ready to see this Israel as the fulfillment!

I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that there are more Jews in New York than in Israel

[Steve Davis]

Paul J. Scharf wrote:

I have made my points, and I am officially signing off on this one!

Every Blessing,

Thanks Paul. Sorry to see you go. It was just getting interesting. Blessings.

Thanks Steve!

One more post, then, just for fun. A few quotes to let it be known that, if I am wrong here, so are the greatest traditional dispensational Bible teachers past and present—including one named above in defense of the view that modern Israel bears no relation to Bible prophecy:

“The partial restoration of the nation Israel to their ancient land in the middle of the twentieth century should be recognized by all careful students of the Bible as a most remarkable event. It seems to be a token that God is about to fulfill His Word Concerning the glorious future of His chosen people. As has been pointed out in previous discussion, the return of Israel to their ancient land and the establishment of the state of Israel is the first step in a sequence of events which will culminate in Christ’s millennial kingdom on earth.” — Dr. John Walvoord (http://walvoord.com/article/288)

“They began to return to the land of Palestine, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, so that now, there are millions of Israelis who live in this place called Israel. And living there, they have become once again a very notorious and powerful nation in the world. Living there, they have become an example of God working in history. But, living there is a miracle. … But out of these experiences, God has produced a knowledge of the reality of God in the hearts and minds of the people of Israel. So the regathering has been seen as a marvelous miracle, done by God for His people. They are back in the land today, in fulfillment of what the Bible teaches.” — Dr. Dave Breese (http://christiandestiny.org/publications/newsletter/2011-11/lead.shtml)

“The Old Testament speaks of two end-time regatherings of Israel. The first one is occurring now before the tribulation as the Jews return to their land primarily in unbelief. Why are they returning in unbelief? They are returning in unbelief since the purpose of the tribulation (the 70th week of Daniel) is to lead to the conversion of the nation to belief in Jesus as their Messiah. Thus, one must be an unbeliever in order to become a believer as is the biblical purpose for the tribulation for the nation of Israel. The other end-time regathering will occur after the nation has converted to belief in Jesus as their Messiah, at the second coming.” — Dr. Thomas Ice (https://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2013/11/the-significance-of-modern-is…)

“Is the current state of Israel a work of God as predicted in Bible prophecy or is it merely an accident of history? I believe that modern Israel is a Divine work and is in the process of fulfilling Bible prophecy. I believe that Israel, as she is constituted today, is a work of God in progress preparing the nation for the tribulation, which will lead to her national conversion, the second coming of Christ and His millennial reign.” — Dr. Thomas Ice (http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/is-modern-israel-fulfilling-proph…)

“Although the spiritual regeneration component of this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, when we tangibly see a regathered Israel in national existence in the Middle East, we begin to see that God means what He says and says what He means regarding Israel’s national future. God is more than capable of moving heaven and earth so that the specific details of His Word are fulfilled. Such a national regathering vindicates a national and literal approach to these prophecies rather than approaching them in an overly mystical or symbolic manner.” — Dr. Andy Woods (http://thewordonpolitics.com/biblical-spiritual-significance-modern-sta…)

“It is only hoped that every student of the Bible will consider the historical events happening in the Middle East with the on-going Jewish return to Israel, the development of the Land, the belligerence of the Arab world, the current rise in Anti-Semitism and opposition to Israel in the international community in light of the prophetic scriptures that give meaning to their significance.” — Dr. Randall Price (https://worldofthebible.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Is-Israel-Prophe…)

I look forward to receiving that list of the great traditional dispensational Bible teachers who see no prophetic significance whatsoever in the modern state of Israel. I’m waiting … and waiting … and waiting … and waiting … and … … … …

When I discuss dispensationalism, I’ve often heard good men tell me, “you sound like a progressive dispensationalist!” I know what they mean, and I know it isn’t meant to be a compliment. Often, to be a PD is seen to be a betrayal of the system. I must confess that I haven’t read Bock or Blaising on PD, and I don’t remember what Ryrie said about it (except that he didn’t like it). I suppose I have PD leanings, but I’m not really sure what I am.

I believe in Ryrie’s sine qua non, but I’m admittedly not a strong dispensationalist. It’s not a system that really floats my boat, so to speak. To use a modern phrase, I don’t “self-identify” as a dispensationalist. It’s not a label that defines my Christian identity. I’m a dispensationalist with a small “d,” if that makes any sense. I’m not particularly interested in defending systems, and one danger of systematic theology is that it can fatten things out artificially. Systematic theology is clearly important, but I feel that sometimes (e.g. this discussion about modern Israel fulfilling Ezek 36-37) a system drives interpretation more than the text. This is one potential danger of systematics; your system can determine your conclusions instead of the text.

From what I’ve seen of Andy Woods on Twitter, I believe he’s a totally insane, imbalanced anti-Lordship guy. I don’t care that he’s the new President of Chafer Theological Seminary; he has never seemed credible to me.

[Paul J. Scharf]

Steve Davis wrote:

Paul J. Scharf wrote:

I have made my points, and I am officially signing off on this one!

Every Blessing,

Thanks Paul. Sorry to see you go. It was just getting interesting. Blessings.

Thanks Steve!

One more post, then, just for fun. A few quotes to let it be known that, if I am wrong here, so are the greatest traditional dispensational Bible teachers past and present—including one named above in defense of the view that modern Israel bears no relation to Bible prophecy: …………….

……………I look forward to receiving that list of the great traditional dispensational Bible teachers who see no prophetic significance whatsoever in the modern state of Israel. I’m waiting … and waiting … and waiting … and waiting … and … … … …

Thanks for indulging us. I don’t think I’ve questioned that many (most?) traditional/classic dispensationalists regard 1948 as fulfillment. Apart from Walvoord and Ice (who was a student in a class as me at Dallas in the 90s), I don’t recognize the others. With Cone, who I quoted, I’m not sure if he’s traditional or not but he clearly doesn’t see fulfillment. Either way, without counting noses, I think conservative, biblical scholarship has largely moved away from 1948 fulfillment. That doesn’t make it right or wrong.

Over the years, I rarely have seen men moving into traditional dispensationlism. It’s usually the other way. I think one reason is the speculative nature of some if its interpretation, a hard discontinuity between Israel and the Church, etc. Perhaps another is what Andrew K brought up (which would lead to a whole other thread) - Who is a Jew? In the meantime, while we wait to see what God will do, we know what he has done in Christ, and what he has called us to do in this age. I think we can agree on that.

This is the one we were looking for, boys …

“Ezekiel deals in great measure with this. In Ezekiel 36:24 … First comes the…the physical restoration, then the revival. … So God says, ‘I will bring you back from your captivity, I will place you in the land, and then there will be a spiritual revival.’ Now this is a fantastic thing to be alive in this day to see this happen; to see the things that are going on in Israel; to see the building of the waste cities; to see all of the fruit that is being reaped because of the planting in Israel; all of these miraculous things happening in Israel. It is the miracle of history, in fact, that the Jews have even survived in the human jungle over these years, since 70 A.D. these some 2,000 years. It’s amazing they’ve even survived to be re-gathered. That’s the miracle, really. That’s the miracle of anthropology… .” — Dr. John MacArthur (https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1319/is-god-finished-with-i…)

“I wrote a book with Dr. Cone. I know Dr. Cone. Dr. Cone is a friend of mine. …”

Oh well, we’ll leave it there :-)

Are we talking about Dr. Christopher Cone, president of Calvary University? I would like to see the full transcript. I have no idea what the context was. Do you have a link?

Thanks!

[Paul J. Scharf]

“I wrote a book with Dr. Cone. I know Dr. Cone. Dr. Cone is a friend of mine. …”

Oh well, we’ll leave it there

Are we talking about Dr. Christopher Cone, president of Calvary University? I would like to see the full transcript. I have no idea what the context was. Do you have a link?

Thanks!

https://sharperiron.org/article/interview-state-of-contemporary-dispens…

Isaacs: The nation of Israel has always had a key eschatological role in dispensationalism. Do you think the establishment of the modern, secular state of Israel in 1948 vindicates—or at least adds more credibility to—dispensational premillennialism over the other millennial systems (amillennialism, postmillennialism, historic premillennialism)?

Cone: 1948 was a significant date for Israel, of course, but it isn’t necessarily a prophetically significant date. Some suggest that 1948 could be a fulfillment of the first part of the Ezekiel 37 prophecy (flesh on bone, with no breath), but I think that is a tough connection to make. Still, it is significant that Israel is in the land, but if God so desires, He could allow her to be removed again. I don’t expect that to happen, but it wouldn’t violate biblical prophecy if it did.

We see that associated with God’s fulfilling His new covenant with Israel, Israel will return to the land—will be brought back by God to the land—and will not just be physically restored, but also will receive a spiritual restoration. The two go hand in hand. We expect literal future fulfillments of these promises.

In the meantime, clearly God is working with Israel, and the pieces are moving into place for literal fulfillments of the prophecies of Revelation, for example, but I am very cautious about trying to connect prophecy with snapshots in time. I suggest that events of our time don’t add to or detract from the credibility of dispensational premillennialism—it is either a correct understanding of Scripture or it isn’t. If it is, then there is a timeline of future events we can map out, but date setting is never wise (or biblical)—nor is trying to build an eschatology from the news of the day.

He is saying something very similar, perhaps in a more nuanced way, to what I and the others are saying. You can make the case that he is disagreeing with the most dogmatic portions of the statements I quoted above.

Of course, we have no prophecies to tell us that Israel either will or will not leave the land again—and then return after that, yet again.

“Still, it is significant that Israel is in the land, but if God so desires, He could allow her to be removed again. I don’t expect that to happen, but it wouldn’t violate biblical prophecy if it did.”

I agree with this statement. Yet, even if that unlikely scenario were to unfold, however, I do not see any circumstance under which the 1948 regathering was not significant and relevant to Ezekiel 36, in the long run. Perhaps I am disagreeing with Dr. Cone on that aspect.

I am all for a vibrant dispensationalism that can withstand all sorts of internal discussion. We need Cone’s balanced perspective on this issue—and all issues.

What we do not need to is to question the very core principles that define us.

What we need to do better is to transmit those principles to the “younger guys”—who are enamored with the David Platts, Matt Chandlers and Andy Stanleys of the world. Many of their followers probably could not even point to Israel on a map. I am grieved by this situation, in case you cannot tell.

I looked at Chafer’s systematic, Fruchtenbaum (Israelology and Footsteps of the Messiah), Dyer (Bible Knowledge Commentary) and they each tied Israel’s regathering to Christ’s messianic reign. Larry Oats’ class notes from my seminary days didn’t even discuss the issue. My own interpretation of Ezek 36 - 37 has always tied Israel’s regathering to Christ’s second advent.

As a dispensationalist who has read a fair amount of dispensational material, what Paul is saying is the position of pretty much every one I’ve read. I think where some dispensationalists go wrong is not in seeing this Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy, it’s rubber stamping their actions in the name of “supporting Israel.” I am about as traditional dispensational as Ryrie, Walvoord, Cone, etc. but that doesn’t mean that I automatically accept Israel as if they were already repentant. We need to remember that they are an apostate nation, as Jim has said.