Israel "is the only nation in the world that has the promise of God's protection"

[Steve Davis]

But you can’t know it. Israel today in unbelief is not the people of God. God has his people - the Church.

This is what I meant by what I said about the bewildering inconsistency of US Christianity toward Israel. On one hand, they believe that the people are going to hell but on the other, they are somehow special. So does that mean they get a less hot floor in hell?

To make matters worse, the “special people” status leads a lot of Christians to excuse the bad behavior of the country of Israel (of which there is plenty).

I think in general, we have been hoodwinked. Go to a Christian tradeshow such as NRB and you will immediately see that the biggest booths are the tour companies in Israel. Israel knows who butters their bread and they want Christians coming to spend money. They also need defense and have a spent a small fortune on propaganda to boost how they are viewed by the US. The movie Exodus is a great example of that. (Even Ben-Gurion admitted that it was propaganda.)

As a disclaimer, I am pro-Israel as an American ally and want them to succeed and one of my heroes is Bonhoeffer. I just think the lens that they are viewed through by Christians is flawed and inconsistent with their theology.

[Larry]

Perhaps we can press in a bit this way:

1. Do you agree that Ezek 36:24-31 (in particular) indicate that Israel is restored to the land and then (after the restoration) is made clean by God?
2. Why would 1948 not be that restoration?
3. If not 1948, what would convince you that it was the restoration prophesied in Ezekiel?

1. Yes, I’d agree.

2. It could be that restoration, but if someone claims with certainty that it is, they are claiming knowledge that is impossible for them to have.

3. I would be convinced it was the restoration of prophesy if the nation continued to exist until the Tribulation. We simply cannot know for certain if the current nation is going to continue to exist. Iran could nuke the current nation and make the land uninhabitable, and God’s promises would NOT become void. God would then, at some future date, restore the nation to the land.

Of course, Bird isn’t a dispensationalist, but I thought this was funny:

This is clearly an example of Zionism and Dispensationalism making for very bad foreign policy and people need to point out that this has nothing to do with biblical prophecy, nothing to do with promises fulfilled, and will only hasten conflict inside Israel. As I tweeted earlier and I say again:(link is external)

I’ve read my Bible cover to cover several times, I have a PhD in NT, I’ve been to Jerusalem, and let me tell you that moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is to the apocalypse what Kale is to Texas BBQ.

he doesn’t think I’m being cruel and heartless to him. I’ll post the link here when I respond to the issue.

On another note, if you want to provide reasons why you support that interpretation of Ezek 36 - 37, then I’ll listen and interact with them when I respond.

I don’t think it’s a matter of you being cruel and heartless. I think it is rather a matter of common decency and what will will help to engender helpful interaction on a topic. It seems increasingly part and parcel of this modern age that people speak in strong language that lacks respect and basic civility. We have reached a point in society where calling names is preferable to making arguments.

I don’t have a strong opinion on this. I posted questions that would be helpful to understand more about your position. I don’t know that anyone can know for sure which is why the language you used seems more show that substance. Why call it foolishness, silliness, etc. when you can’t know whether you are right or wrong?

I would think it has to be possible that 1948 is part of that in setting the stage. I don’t know how you could deny that possibility.

You and I have never done very well interacting online. Take care.

The problem with speculation is that some people treat it it like it is truth and defend it, only to retreat to “this could be” or “we didn’t say it WAS fulfillment” if the discussion gets heated.

Eschatological speculation has been around for a long time.

How many possible anti-christs have their been in history?

The United Nations, European Common Market (the 10 toes of Daniel until there were 12), and European Union were possible beginnings of a one-world government.

Social security numbers, underskin implants, and bar codes were possible forerunners of the Mark of the Beast.

Hal Lindsay has made a good living off this since the 70’s.

I’m sure some Crusader bloodied his sword to cleanse the Holy Land and bring in The Kingdom.

So excuse me if I don’t get all excited over “signs of the times” and am content just to look for my Savior to return.

This interpretation (i.e. the modern State of Israel is a partial fulfillment of Ezek 36 - 37) reminds me of the Gap Theory. People wanted to find a way to shoehorn “theistic evolution” into the Biblical text, so the Gap Theory was the result. The text doesn’t say it. Yet, it doesn’t not say it, either. They wanted a solution and, just like Cinderella’s wicked step-sisters as they tried on the glass slipper, they “made it fit.”

This is precisely what I see when I see DTs arguing for this odd interpretation in Ezek 36 - 37. They want something, so they make it fit. Brothers, we’re better than this.

I’ve ordered Horner’s book Future Israel via ILL, and look forwarding to seeing what he has to say. It is interesting that nobody has pointed me to a commentary that advocates this odd interpretation from Ezek 36 - 37. I hope my article (an exposition of Ezek 36 -37 and interaction with this strange interpretation) will be finished by the beginning of July.

[TylerR]

You and I have never done very well interacting online. Take care.

Thanks. Take care.

It seems to me that—even if 1948 had never happened, and there were no modern state of Israel—the substance of Ezekiel 36, understood literally, would still relate to the condition of all Jewish people on Earth today:

“I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them.” (Ezek. 36:19, ESV)

I realize that such thinking is not in vogue today, as progressive dispensationalists have taken a big theological bite out of the future of Israel.

But to deny that there is any prophetic relevance whatsoever between the modern state of Israel and Bible prophecy is much more akin even to amillennialism than it is to PD. In their view, the modern state of Israel is of no more importance Biblically than Mozambique.

Is that where we are headed with this? If so, you can count me out—in case you could not tell :-)

I will never forget hearing that “wild and crazy,” fringe figure, Dr. Woodrow Kroll, being interviewed on the radio one time. Being asked how to understand where we are in history and how to “discern the signs of the times” (Matt. 16:3, KJV), he responded: “Watch Israel.”

I see a good book in the future; “Four Views on the Spectrum of Premillennial Dispensationalism.”

My own reading of the prophetic passages ties Israel’s ingathering to the Messiah’s second advent, which will be accompanied by a mass conversion of Israel to her King. The Millennium will be characterized by a massive outpouring of the Spirit, where Jews will be God’s priests to the pagan world (see Zech 8) and many people will be saved.

Hopefully, this will help you see we’re not too far off. I’m just not interested in assigning prophetic significance to modern-day events. I think it’s dangerous and generally irresponsible. I also maintain that we come from very different camps of dispensationalism. Your camp is evidently much more willing to assign prophetic significance to contemporary events. I think this opens us up to charges of sensationalism (some of which, depending on the author, are very warranted).

Thanks Tyler—I am glad that you acknowledge the points in your first paragraph above.

While I do not presume to say that this short paragraph represents the whole of your theology, I would say that the danger for you is that you may be compressing and conflating these events together—almost to the point of allegorization.

If you are a pretrib/literalist, then surely you can see much more detail about an established nation of Israel from the beginning of the trib in passages such as Ezek. 38-39, Dan. 9, Zech. 12-14, Rev. 11, etc.

A few questions—I’ll even give you the answers:

• Where does a Jewish person have to live before coming to faith in Messiah—within the land? (Israel)
• What do you have to be in that land before you come to faith? (an unbeliever)
• So how did you have to return to the land? (as an unbeliever)
• What has been happening for the past 70 years? (unbelieving Jewish people have begun returning to the land)
• Has such a thing ever happened before in the history of the world? (no)

I’m at work, so I was being ridiculously brief with my description.

The fact is that (I believe) you’re shoehorning in a parentheses between the regathering and Christ’s second advent. I don’t see how you can demonstrate that from the text. I think you’re literally inserting “modern State of Israel” into a blank space in the text between the regathering and Christ’s second coming. That is the essence of our disagreement, and it’s why I drew a parallel to the Gap Theory (above).

Tyler,

There is no parallel to the Gap Theory … in fact there is the opposite with my view. I take the Bible literally from Genesis to Revelation.

Of course there is a “gap” between the initial regathering of Israel into the land in unbelief and the final spiritual regathering at Christ’s second advent.

(Of course, it is really not a gap at all, because there are a myriad of prophetic details that we must “shoehorn” into it.)

How else do you account for a fully functioning nation of Israel—acting out of unbelief—taking all of the actions described in the passages I mentioned above? Of course, in the meantime, millions of Jewish people will be saved—culminating in the second coming.

No “gap” there = allegorization of all of those details.