Newsflash: Personal Discipline Is Not Legalism

[Kevin Miller] But do you really know this though? What if a demon possessed someone and made that person strong enough to break chains, or do some other amazing deed, and then proclaimed himself to be Dagon? Is that entirely outside the realm of possibility? Or perhaps a demon can manifest himself without having to possess someone. Do we know that that is impossible? If either of those situations is possible, then Dagon or some other false gods would not simply be coming from man’s imagination.

The closest thing I can think of in the Bible that fits your example is the image that Nebuchadnezzar setup. There are plenty of people who have set themselves up as gods. Certainly, those people exist. Of course, Nebuchadnezzar was not a god, and so he set up a false god for the people to worship. That all could have been demonically influenced. That’s not really the type of image that we are talking about in Corinth, though. We are talking about an image that man created not of himself or another man that is walking around, but some supposed deity. For that situation, I’m just following Isaiah 44. That type of person who creates such an idol, Isaiah says in vs 20 has a deluded heart. He doesn’t think about how stupid it is to fall down before a block of wood (vs 19). It’s all designed by man (vs 13).

I’m not aware of any scripture that says demons can possess inanimate objects. Are you thinking of something in particular?

…how does all this apply on Feb. 4, 2022? Our world is as equally pagan as it was in AD 55 although the idolatry has changed its face and, thusly, the idols and their pollutions have also changed. Where does the church of Jesus Christ need to come down on all this information now?

[Lee]

…how does all this apply on Feb. 4, 2022? Our world is as equally pagan as it was in AD 55 although the idolatry has changed its face and, thusly, the idols and their pollutions have also changed. Where does the church of Jesus Christ need to come down on all this information now?

[RajeshG]

Lee wrote:

…how does all this apply on Feb. 4, 2022? Our world is as equally pagan as it was in AD 55 although the idolatry has changed its face and, thusly, the idols and their pollutions have also changed. Where does the church of Jesus Christ need to come down on all this information now?

Actually, there are millions of people in the world today whose worship involves actual food items offered to physical objects of worship. I am a first-generation convert from such religion and have family members who still actively practice in those ways. What the Scripture speaks about is still very real even in our day; many American believers have very limited knowledge about the realities of what is still taking place in the world today.

I got your sensitivity on this. But I live in southeast USA. Our idolatry/idols don’t look like Dagon, Atemis, Aphrodite, or any of the Hindu entities. Not that we don’t have them, but our worship of them rarely if ever includes offering meat in the temple. However, if it is culturally embraced idolatry it does have idols and pollutions. So again, how does this apply to us?

The objective is to keep idolatry out of the church and the life of the saint. I think I can safely say that 4-corners Community Church in southeast USA is in very little danger of embracing the worship of either Artemis or Vishnu. However, since idolatry (false worship) is always the #1 external threat to the church of Jesus Christ wherever it may be, then knowing how to apply this passage to whatever idolatry is threatening 4-corners Community Church is uber important.

[Lee]

I got your sensitivity on this. But I live in southeast USA. Our idolatry/idols don’t look like Dagon, Atemis, Aphrodite, or any of the Hindu entities. Not that we don’t have them, but our worship of them rarely if ever includes offering meat in the temple. However, if it is culturally embraced idolatry it does have idols and pollutions. So again, how does this apply to us?

The objective is to keep idolatry out of the church and the life of the saint. I think I can safely say that 4-corners Community Church in southeast USA is in very little danger of embracing the worship of either Artemis or Vishnu. However, since idolatry (false worship) is always the #1 external threat to the church of Jesus Christ wherever it may be, then knowing how to apply this passage to whatever idolatry is threatening 4-corners Community Church is uber important.

[AndyE]

The closest thing I can think of in the Bible that fits your example is the image that Nebuchadnezzar setup. There are plenty of people who have set themselves up as gods. Certainly, those people exist. Of course, Nebuchadnezzar was not a god, and so he set up a false god for the people to worship. That all could have been demonically influenced. That’s not really the type of image that we are talking about in Corinth, though. We are talking about an image that man created not of himself or another man that is walking around, but some supposed deity. For that situation, I’m just following Isaiah 44. That type of person who creates such an idol, Isaiah says in vs 20 has a deluded heart. He doesn’t think about how stupid it is to fall down before a block of wood (vs 19). It’s all designed by man (vs 13).

I’m not aware of any scripture that says demons can possess inanimate objects. Are you thinking of something in particular?

I know of at least one person who believes that the “principalities” and “powers” and “rulers of the darkness of this world” in Eph 6:12 are among the “other gods” we are commanded not to worship in the 1st commandment. The 2nd commandment then tells us not to make an image of anything in heaven or earth or under the sea. This would include not making images to worship the true God or spirit beings or earthly creatures. We know from the temptation of Christ that Satan desires worship so it wouldn’t surprise me if other spirit beings do as well.

Scripture provides explicit teaching about idolatrous worship occasioned by the working of the devil and two demonically energized and influenced humans:
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Notice that 13:14-15 speaks of the making of an image to the beast, the supernatural giving of life to that image, and the resultant worship of that image of the beast. The image had no life of its own until supernatural power gave it life. Through demonic activity, this image will have actual existence as a living entity.

That is a good passage to bring up. My wife actually mentioned it as well last night at supper when I was talking about this thread with her.

Do you think this is normative and that’s how all idol worship works, or is this a unique end times event?

The OT seems to make the point that idols don’t have any ability, can’t do anything for good or bad, and are nothing but blocks of wood. When Paul and others say they are no gods, I think he means more than he doesn’t consider them on the level of the true God, or they don’t have the ability of the true God, but that they are not actual living beings.

This passage in revelation seems to depict something different. I don’t think Paul would say that image in Revelation is nothing.

Am interested in the thoughts of others on this one

[AndyE]

That is a good passage to bring up. My wife actually mentioned it as well last night at supper when I was talking about this thread with her.

Do you think this is normative and that’s how all idol worship works, or is this a unique end times event?

The OT seems to make the point that idols don’t have any ability, can’t do anything for good or bad, and are nothing but blocks of wood. When Paul and others say they are no gods, I think he means more than he doesn’t consider them on the level of the true God, or they don’t have the ability of the true God, but that they are not actual living beings.

This passage in revelation seems to depict something different. I don’t think Paul would say that image in Revelation is nothing.

Am interested in the thoughts of others on this one

[AndyE]

The OT seems to make the point that idols don’t have any ability, can’t do anything for good or bad, and are nothing but blocks of wood. When Paul and others say they are no gods, I think he means more than he doesn’t consider them on the level of the true God, or they don’t have the ability of the true God, but that they are not actual living beings.

This makes me think of Pharaoh’s sorcerers. I don’t know what images, if any, these sorcerers may have used as they worked their sorcery, but they were actually able to turn their rods into snakes. Was that just an illusion or did it actually happen by demonic power? The sorcerers were also able to turn water into blood and call up frogs. I’ve read an article which stated that each of the plagues corresponded to a specific Egyptian god.

I agree that we are having great difficulty figuring out exactly what each of the people believed about the idols. It seems like whatever term we use, we end up later saying, “Wait, in what sense do you mean (real, alive, etc.?)”

impasse based … Paul … agrees w … nothing. Since you see the idols as fundamentally real, you see Paul saying he doesn’t value or listen to or worship them. They are nothing to him in that he is not tempted to worship them and would never give them the time of day. While I believe that was Paul’s attitude,

I think we’re agreed, then that MeNothing is at the least what’s meant by “nothing.”

I think he is saying more than that. I think he has in mind the non-living aspect of the idol, all the things I keep bringing up from Isaiah and Jeremiah. I think the ESV captures what Paul is conceding with its, “has no real existence.”

How the demonic reality comes into play I think is in the back of his mind but he has other points he wants to make before bringing that up.

So we could add the question, “Is the idol alive?” AliveNothing? But there’s two problems:

1) I think we’ll end up with a similar ambiguous situation. If it is a demonic idol, is it “alive?” Rajesh has twice objected to saying that the idol “has” a demon. I’m not sure what he’s reading into “has” that he objects to. If you see a guy walking a dog, he “has” a dog and the dog “has” an owner. Luke 4:33 - “And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon…” That’s a different meaning of “had,” I think. And that’s probably what Rajesh is objecting to? So if an idol is a demonic idol, it is in some way associated with, perhaps “invocational of” a living being.

2) 1Cor8 never said that the weak thought the idol was “alive.” It just says he thought of the meat “as really offered to an idol.”

I’m not sure we’re at an impasse, but I feel like we will have to be more precise to avoid moving from one set of ambiguous terms to another set of ambiguous terms.

I am sure the Corinthians had the same impasse: A strong group saying, “The meat is offered to NOTHING. Eat it.” And the weak saying, “The meat is really offered to an idol.”
Paul says, “The meat is offered to a demon. Don’t eat it.” Then what? Surely, the weak were saying, “See!? I told you guys it was something!!” And Paul himself tells us someone (if not the strong, then who?) will say, “Wait!? You’re not saying an idol is anything are you?!?”

Maybe it comes down to this question: When the weak says, “The meat is really offered to an idol,” is he right? I mean the meat was really offered to an idol, and Deuteronomy tells us idol=demon. I think the weak is substantially right.

Isaiah 19 is striking in what it teaches about the effects of idolatry, occult practices, and divine judgment with a perverse spirit:
Isaiah 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isaiah 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

[Kevin Miller] The representation is powerless, but I wouldn’t say that the evil spirit that they are worshipping is powerless.

This makes me think of Pharaoh’s sorcerers. I don’t know what images, if any, these sorcerers may have used as they worked their sorcery, but they were actually able to turn their rods into snakes. Was that just an illusion or did it actually happen by demonic power? The sorcerers were also able to turn water into blood and call up frogs. I’ve read an article which stated that each of the plagues corresponded to a specific Egyptian god.

I’m not exactly sure how the demonic aspect of idolatry works itself out, or what God allows them to do. I’m also not sure exactly what the Egyptian sorcerers actually did, but the text says they did it (perhaps via demonic power), not an idol. It does appear that God allows Satan and demons certain extraordinary powers at times. I agree that the plagues were designed by God to show his true power over the false power of these false gods. Even the example of the rods turning into snakes shows that when Aaron’s snake swallow up the snakes of the sorcerers. Given all that, we still have these OT characterizations:

“their metal images are empty wind” (Isa 41:29, ESV)

“their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field” (Jer 10:5, ESV)

“their idols…cannot speak…have to be carried…cannot walk” (Jer 10:5, ESV)

“Do not be afraid of them for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good” (Jer 10:5, ESV)

“they are both stupid and foolish, the instruction of idols is but wood” (Jer 10:8, ESV, “their idol is wood”, NASB, “worthless idols made of wood”, HCSB)

“shall I fall down before a block of wood?” (Isa 44:19, ESV)

What are we to make of these statements? Should we rebuke Isaiah and Jeremiah for not referencing the demonic aspect of idol worship or not suggesting that there are real demons that might be able to do something (if God so allows) in conjunction with these idols? Jeremiah specifically says, don’t fear them. The point here seems to be something other than don’t value them because of the demonic influence behind them, but don’t value them because they are nothing, of no real existence, not alive, not real beings, and cannot do evil or good. In other words, it not just that these idols are not God and can’t do what God can do…they can’t do anything!

Saying that does not deny the demonic aspect of idol worship. That’s real and that’s another reason to avoid it. It just seems to me that “nothing” in 1 Cor 8:4 means something different than not valuing, but that they are intrinsically like what the prophets says they are, blocks of wood that have no life and no ability.

[Dan Miller] I am sure the Corinthians had the same impasse: A strong group saying, “The meat is offered to NOTHING. Eat it.” And the weak saying, “The meat is really offered to an idol.” Paul says, “The meat is offered to a demon. Don’t eat it.” Then what? Surely, the weak were saying, “See!? I told you guys it was something!!” And Paul himself tells us someone (if not the strong, then who?) will say, “Wait!? You’re not saying an idol is anything are you?!?”

Yeah, this is why I am reading the passage the way I am. Paul is affirming that one aspect of the strong’s knowledge is correct – idols are nothing and there is no God but one. How do we reconcile that with Paul’s additional insistence that there IS something to idolatry that make eating meat known to be offered to idols wrong?

How is an idol both nothing and something at the same time?

• One way is your way. Nothing means “nothing to me” and so I don’t value it or worship it.
• Other way is my way. Nothing means “nothing” as in no real existence, not alive and all those OT characterizations of an idol just being a block of wood.

Your way seems just as valid in the chapter 8 discussion as mine. However, when we get to chapter 10, Paul anticipates that the strong will think that he is siding with the weak’s understanding and knowledge, that the idol is something.

Now we have to ask, in what way is the idol something to the weak? Was it something to him in that he valued it and worshiped it? No. Was it something to him in that the idol was real in some sense? Yes.

In what way was it real to him? Paul says in 8:7, that “some through former association with idols eat food as really offered to an idol.” To me that sounds like what Isaiah and Jeremiah objected to. The idolaters of their day were treating those blocks of wood as if they were real beings and real gods. Paul doesn’t say the weak are offended because they know that meat offered to idols brings them into participation and fellowship with demons.

If you unwind all that, I think the best way to understand the strong’s objection in 10:19, is by reading it as, “Paul you are not saying an idol has a real existence and that there or other gods out there, are you?” Paul, no an idol has no real existence but there is a demonic reality to idol worship that you have not taken into account.

I keep going back and forth as to how off we actually are from each other.

I think the weak is substantially right.

Perhaps, but do you think the weak ate meat purchased in the market? The other thing to consider is that in 8:7, Paul says that “not all possess this [correct] knowledge.” That knowledge that he refers to here is correct, right? In other words, it seems that weak are also off due to their lack of complete knowledge.