Newsflash: Personal Discipline Is Not Legalism

[Lee]

I feel like this discussion was a bit like not being able to see the forest for all the trees that were in the way. I think maybe we’re getting back on track.

Things on which I think we mostly agree:

• I Cor. 8-10 is instruction on how to biblically “flee from idolatry”
  • By idolatry it is referencing the culturally practiced, generally poly-theistic, religiosity that defines practically every culture, society, sub-culture in the world
    • This is the idolatry that defines people groups—“…And …they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men….”“Great is Diana of the Ephesians”; “…at Athens…the city wholly given to idolatry…”

The Temples of Idols in Scripture

Scripture provides abundant testimony that reveals to us how pervasively human beings have made temples for their idols. Scripture provides many references to the temples of the idols of specific peoples and at least one reference to the temples of the idols of all nations.

The Temples of the Idols of Specific Peoples

Canaanites

Judges 9:27 And they went out into the fields, and gathered their vineyards, and trode the grapes, and made merry, and went into the house of their god, and did eat and drink, and cursed Abimelech.

Judges 9:46 And when all the men of the tower of Shechem heard that, they entered into an hold of the house of the god Berith.

Philistines

1 Samuel 5:2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.

1 Samuel 5:5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon’s house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.

1 Samuel 31:9 And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.

1 Samuel 31:10 And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.

1 Chr. 10:10 And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon.

Arameans

2 Kings 5:18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.

Samaritans

2 Kings 17:29 Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt.

Assyrians

2 Kings 19:37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chr. 32:21 And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.

Isaiah 37:38 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

Babylonians

Ezra 1:7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;

Ezra 5:14 And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered unto one, whose name was Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor;

2 Chr. 36:7 Nebuchadnezzar also carried of the vessels of the house of the LORD to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon.

Daniel 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

Zechariah 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Egyptians

Jeremiah 43:12 And I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he shall burn them, and carry them away captives: and he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd putteth on his garment; and he shall go forth from thence in peace.

Jeremiah 43:13 He shall break also the images of Bethshemesh, that is in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of the Egyptians shall he burn with fire.

Israelites

Judges 17:5 And the man Micah had an house of gods, and made an ephod, and teraphim, and consecrated one of his sons, who became his priest.

Hosea 8:14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

Nahum 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

Ephesians

Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Corinthians

1 Corinthians 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

The Temples of the Idols of All Nations

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

Application

The biblical data about the temples of the idols of specific peoples and of all nations testifies to the horrific and widespread idolatry that humans have engaged in throughout most of their history. A careful study and analysis of this data should strengthen our resolve to flee from all idolatry (1 Cor. 10:14)!

I have appreciated this discussion. It has really helped me sharpen my thinking on this passage and in some areas of application. I think this thread has mostly run its course. However, there are a couple issues we have not discussed in much detail that might be worth exploring if people were interested. I’ll just start with one to see if there is any interest in further discussion.

What kinds of idol worship do we have in the United States today, and what would the “pollutions of idols” be that we need to avoid? I know we have false idolatrous religious groups here in America with their temples and such. To be honest, I have little to no interactions with those, by which I mean I rarely if ever drive by one of those places, and don’t really know anyone who worships at such a place. Calvin talks about the heart being an idol factory. Are there “secular” things like sports, perhaps, that people have made into idols that we should apply these principles to?

[AndyE]

I have appreciated this discussion. It has really helped me sharpen my thinking on this passage and in some areas of application. I think this thread has mostly run its course. However, there are a couple issues we have not discussed in much detail that might be worth exploring if people were interested. I’ll just start with one to see if there is any interest in further discussion.

What kinds of idol worship do we have in the United States today, and what would the “pollutions of idols” be that we need to avoid? I know we have false idolatrous religious groups here in America with their temples and such. To be honest, I have little to no interactions with those, by which I mean I rarely if ever drive by one of those places, and don’t really know anyone who worships at such a place. Calvin talks about the heart being an idol factory. Are there “secular” things like sports, perhaps, that people have made into idols that we should apply these principles to?

It’s worth noting that a large portion of Asian restaurants have a little shrine in them to Buddha, Hindu deities, and the like. Does that perhaps qualify as coming closer to idolatry than we’d like? This one will hurt, because even when it’s “Americanized”, I’m a big fan of asian food.

[Bert Perry]

It’s worth noting that a large portion of Asian restaurants have a little shrine in them to Buddha, Hindu deities, and the like. Does that perhaps qualify as coming closer to idolatry than we’d like? This one will hurt, because even when it’s “Americanized”, I’m a big fan of asian food.

I have wondered about this and other things as well. I took Tae Kwon Do for 3 years, but it was at the Do Jang of a former American Olympian, and there were no shrines inside or any chants to idols, or nods to idol worship or anything related to that. I would have avoided any martial art form that was too closely related to Asian spiritism of any kind. Still, I did think long and hard before taking any martial arts. Later, I had the chance to take Kung Fu, which I did with the instructor being a black belt Christian friend of mine. I’d probably still be taking from him if he hadn’t moved away. Obviously, with him leading the class, I wasn’t worried about about anything that would be idolatrous being part of the class.

As to temples, we have a lot of Indians in our area, and probably close to 50% of the people at my job in high tech are Indian. Most of my co-workers are like most Catholics I know in the US — they go to temple only for “big” events in their lives, and are otherwise non-practicing. Like Andy, I rarely even drive by temples of other religions. However, I have attended two funerals at a local temple, one for a co-worker, and one for another co-worker’s father. I went back and forth with myself over whether I should attend, and even discussed it with other believers.

In the end, I went to show respect for them and their families. I didn’t understand anything of what went on (and honestly, because the ceremony was in Sanskrit, I doubt many of my co-workers understood it either, much like most Catholics don’t understand Latin when used in services). I sat quietly, and asking other co-workers about things, I didn’t take part in anything by eating or gestures, etc. that would have been seen as respect for their gods/idols. Still, I wondered whether even going to a funeral there was appropriate.

While most of us may not face actual religious idolatry directly in the U.S., it can certainly come up at least tangentially, and some of us will have to deal with it. It’s certainly not the same level that early Christians in Corinth would have experienced, but it’s not non-existent here either.

I do want to address what I see as real problems with Andy’s view.

But…I started the tangent on what is an idol?

What can we agree about the nature of idols? I suggest: The “nothingness” of idols…

• does not mean for sure that there isn’t a real demonic presence with the idol.
  • And in the case of Corinth, Paul said there was a demon. Consider that there were multiple temples with idols and dinner parties in Corinth. Paul didn’t specify - is he saying they all have demons? Or is the possibility enough?
  • Regardless, IF the two possibilities are “nothing” and other have a “demon,” then…
    • the idols in Corinth were not “nothing.”
    • and the “nothing-ness” does make idols acceptable.
• properly means that the idol is “nothing to me.” Meaning I do not respect it, cherish it, worship it, honor it, or seek information from it.
• does not mean that the idol doesn’t exist in any sense. It can still have offerings made to it, which is evil. It can still be worshipped, which is evil.

[Dan Miller] What can we agree about the nature of idols? I suggest: The “nothingness” of idols…

• does not mean for sure that there isn’t a real demonic presence with the idol.
• properly means that the idol is “nothing to me.” Meaning I do not respect it, cherish it, worship it, honor it, or seek information from it.
• does not mean that the idol doesn’t exist in any sense. It can still have offerings made to it, which is evil. It can still be worshipped, which is evil.

I would add one other thing…they are “nothing” in the sense that they are impotent — can’t see, can’t hear, can’t move, can’t help. Having said that, I’m not sure what God might allow a demon to do, but I don’t think that invalidates the point, since the Bible makes this point in several places.

I’m reading and thoroughly benefiting from “Communicating Christ in Animistic Contexts.” The author demonstrates that most the people of the world are actually animists even if they profess another religion. I recommend it!

[Dan Miller]

I do want to address what I see as real problems with Andy’s view.

But…I started the tangent on what is an idol?

What can we agree about the nature of idols? I suggest: The “nothingness” of idols…

• does not mean for sure that there isn’t a real demonic presence with the idol.
  • And in the case of Corinth, Paul said there was a demon. Consider that there were multiple temples with idols and dinner parties in Corinth. Paul didn’t specify - is he saying they all have demons? Or is the possibility enough?
  • Regardless, IF the two possibilities are “nothing” and other have a “demon,” then…
    • the idols in Corinth were not “nothing.”
    • and the “nothing-ness” does make idols acceptable.
• properly means that the idol is “nothing to me.” Meaning I do not respect it, cherish it, worship it, honor it, or seek information from it.
• does not mean that the idol doesn’t exist in any sense. It can still have offerings made to it, which is evil. It can still be worshipped, which is evil.

/quote]
What Paul says is not limited to this: “In the case of Corinth, Paul said there was a demon.” Nor does what he says show that he spoke of idols as “having” demons.
His statement is a general statement that applies to all Gentiles who sacrifice things to idols:
1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
There isn’t anything in 10:20 that limits his statement only to Corinth or only to one particular idol, temple, etc.
Other Scripture speaks similarly about other idolaters:
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Psalm 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils

[josh p]

I’m reading and thoroughly benefiting from “Communicating Christ in Animistic Contexts.” The author demonstrates that most the people of the world are actually animists even if they profess another religion. I recommend it!

[RajeshG]

josh p wrote:

I’m reading and thoroughly benefiting from “Communicating Christ in Animistic Contexts.” The author demonstrates that most the people of the world are actually animists even if they profess another religion. I recommend it!

Sounds interesting. How does the author demonstrate that point?

By citing the worlds religions that are animistic as well as information from missionaries in the field that encounter large groups of Catholics that still worship ancestors (as an example). It’s somewhat speculative of course but I think he made his point.

[AndyE]

I have appreciated this discussion. It has really helped me sharpen my thinking on this passage and in some areas of application. I think this thread has mostly run its course. However, there are a couple issues we have not discussed in much detail that might be worth exploring if people were interested. I’ll just start with one to see if there is any interest in further discussion.

What kinds of idol worship do we have in the United States today, and what would the “pollutions of idols” be that we need to avoid? I know we have false idolatrous religious groups here in America with their temples and such. To be honest, I have little to no interactions with those, by which I mean I rarely if ever drive by one of those places, and don’t really know anyone who worships at such a place. Calvin talks about the heart being an idol factory. Are there “secular” things like sports, perhaps, that people have made into idols that we should apply these principles to?

I do not have the time this evening to discuss this in great detail, but following is an outline I have found helpful in identifying idolatry/false worship.

To the outline you could add “What you worship is that in which you seek solace and wisdom (worldview).

• What is worship?
  • “Homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any created being (Easton’s revised Bible Dictionary)”
    • Homage: honor; service; duty; respect
• Characteristics of worship:
  • Involves an object or being (you are worshipping something) Usually it is casually identifiable
    • Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
    • Acts 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
    • Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  • The object or being may be of a metaphysical nature instead of a physical nature
    • Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
  • The object or being may be an undefined entity
    • Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
  • Submissive action models the process
    • Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. Two keys are noted here
      • Prostration—either physical or spiritual
      • Transfer of wealth or objects of value
    • Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
    • 1 Corinthians 14:25 … so falling down on his face he will worship God…
  • One’s worship is vigorously defended—Acts 19:24-41
    • Against the influence of competing, contradictory beliefs
      • “…in danger…that the temple of…Diana should be despised…(Acts19:27)”
    • Even over rational considerations or understanding
      • “…the whole city was filled with confusion…rushed with one accord into the theater…some…cried one thing, and some another…the more part knew not…wherefore they were come together…(Acts 19:29-32)”
    • At significant personal peril
      • “For we are in danger to be called in question for this day’s uproar…(Acts 19:40)”
      • “…Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of…Jesus Christ… (Acts 15:25)”
  • Time and place sensitive
    • Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him
    • John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
  • Cultural worship is identified by its cultural influence
    • Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Notes: Idolatry, idols, “the unclean thing,” and immorality have a very close association.

Fornication and the eating of things offered to idols are very closely aligned in Scriptural significance.

As a practical reality, if the endgame of a questionable object or action inclines one towards immorality it is more likely than not associated with some form of idolatry.

[AndyE]

RajeshG wrote:There are many Scripture passages that speak of godly believers who in obedience to God destroyed idols. On that basis, once you know that it was a physical object that has been worshiped as a false god, you are obligated at least to remove it completely from your life and even to destroy it if you have the ability and authority to do so.

I can think of some of these examples, and that is helpful. All of the examples I can think of, though, are idols that are actively being worshiped. Are there any examples that fit my hypothetical more closely? The person doesn’t know it was an idol and that idol is no longer actively being worshipped as an idol. Having thought about this more since my last posting, budda is still actively being worshipped in the world and so I certainly wouldn’t want any figurines in my home that would look like I was condoning that or ignoring that. There are active demonic powers at work in the worship of budda.

The reason for exploring the carved monkey example is to see what Paul actually means by saying an idol is nothing. In this case no one is actively worshiping it — the people who did it in the past are long gone. My sole reason for having it would be to remind me of my trip. If I found out it was at one time used as an idol, I could see my conscience rejecting it as a former rival to God and not wanting anything in my house like that. But on the other hand, people have worshiped all sorts of animals and that doesn’t prohibit me (I’m fairly certain) from owning any of those types of animals. So, just throwing this out there for discussion.

[RajeshG]

…

Deuteronomy 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

God is very emphatic in 7:26 that idols were not to be brought into one’s house; doing so was to risk making the one who did so a cursed thing like the idol! God demanded that the idols be utterly detested and abhorred—certainly that means that it could not be kept as a souvenir, travel memento, etc.

Is an object that no one worships an idol? Artemas (Diana), the goddess of Ephesus, hasn’t been realistically worshipped in a millenia or more. What is its status, a trinket or an idol?

[Lee]

RajeshG wrote:

…

Deuteronomy 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

God is very emphatic in 7:26 that idols were not to be brought into one’s house; doing so was to risk making the one who did so a cursed thing like the idol! God demanded that the idols be utterly detested and abhorred—certainly that means that it could not be kept as a souvenir, travel memento, etc.

Is an object that no one worships an idol? Artemas (Diana), the goddess of Ephesus, hasn’t been realistically worshipped in a millenia or more. What is its status, a trinket or an idol?