Bob Jones University and the Bruins Foundation are hosting “An Evening with Tim Tebow”
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This thread has very little to do with Tim Tebow as a person and everything to do with what we were taught and told at BJU while students.
Not that they care but what they taught and told me then does not hold up to the light of scrutiny 35 years later. Some folks on this board want to hold to the old-line Bob Jr. rhetoric and just rip into anyone and anything “we” don’t agree with.
The big problem the old-guard didn’t anticipate is that some would hold so dearly to what they were taught that now we deem that the teacher just wasn’t “right” enough. We can be better, we can be more right. We can show them how it should be done.
In my simple minded opinion, the school came on hard times because they taught their graduates too well.
From anywhere but hard-line BJU graduates this is a pretty normal course of action for an athletic program to bring in a big name speaker to raise funds.
Maybe had this been more normalized years ago, BJU could have had Lester Roloff sign Bible to raise funds for the Bible Conference offerings.
ejohansen, you had me until you mentioned Lester Roloff. Now I’m confused—my guess is others are too. Is that last line pretty sarcastic, or….? Or maybe I’d have needed to be a BJU grad to get some of the humor….
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[ejohansen]This thread has very little to do with Tim Tebow as a person and everything to do with what we were taught and told at BJU while students.
Not that they care but what they taught and told me then does not hold up to the light of scrutiny 35 years later. Some folks on this board want to hold to the old-line Bob Jr. rhetoric and just rip into anyone and anything “we” don’t agree with.
The big problem the old-guard didn’t anticipate is that some would hold so dearly to what they were taught that now we deem that the teacher just wasn’t “right” enough. We can be better, we can be more right. We can show them how it should be done.
Did you miss Larry’s Alvin Dark comment above? Maybe it’s just the same!
I am pretty sure that he was being tongue in cheek with the last line by referring to Roloff.
I also wanted to thank ejohansen for that post. It was one of the best ones I have read so far.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[dgszweda]“He isn’t even a celebrity in the secular world” — Oh, no, Tim is a huge celebrity in secular world. Just as an example, one article I read said there were over 200 people at his first Jets press conference where he was introduced as the backup quarterback. He a Heisman Trophy Winner, two-time college football national champion, NFL playoff winning quarterback, ESPN analyst, and hit a home run on the first pitch he saw as a hitter in the Mets organization. HIs Christian beliefs play into it for sure, but make no mistake, he is way famous!I would agree with the objection to celebrity culture, but this is an odd one, since the only celebrity status Tim really has is the fact that he has had public platforms where he stood up for his Christian beliefs. He is not really a celebrity for his sports achievements. He has had some success here in the past, but not really that stellar. He isn’t even a celebrity in the secular world. His “celebrity” status is typically around his Christian beliefs. I equate it very similar to Dan Quayle and when he came to BJU to speak.
nuances appear to be lost with some people
But really, this is where those who have no argument go when they have nothing to say. Propaganda techniques, attack the messenger, etc.
As for Al Dark, thanks for reminding me. I don’t recall Al speaking in chapel, but nothing would have been charged for it. I knew Al as an acquaintance. He and his wife were members of the same church as my wife and me in those days. They usually sat in the row just ahead of us. His younger days had been quite wild, he lost his first marriage over it. Then, with his second wife, he was saved and his life changed. I remember reading an article about it in Sports Illustrated when he was still managing the A’s. I was surprised when he ended up in Greenville and joined our church. But I think his life had really changed. He spoke in one of our church Sunday school sessions, someone asked him about how he reconciled playing on Sundays. His reply stuck with me… “Well, preachers work on Sundays” The reason it stuck with me is that I disagreed. I don’t consider what we do on Sundays “work.” The work happens through the week, visiting the sick, counseling, discipling, the long hours in the study, that is the work of the ministry. Sunday is worship. So I disagreed on that point. But the situation, I think, BJU and Dark vs. BJU and Tebow is quite different.
Some object to my raising the speaking fees issue. It isn’t my main objection to be sure, but it is part of the celebrity culture issue that is my main objection. I don’t think the Artist Series fees are a serious counter argument, arguably something of real value (the art presented) is offered in exchange for the fees. In this case, it is “fundraising” in exchange for what? A chance to connect briefly with a contemporary Christian god?
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I would be very interested to know what those at BJU who have written/published about separation think about this and what the Bible/Seminary faculty think about this. Unfortunately, I imagine they are restricted in what they can say publicly.
Still waiting for someone who supports Tebow’s speaking at BJU to give an example of a “Christian athlete” whom they would object to speaking at BJU.
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
Ejohansen,
I raised a minor concern and I am not a graduate, have never been on campus, no one at my church went there or probably ever will. Not everything is party politics. I just think it’s a dumb idea to use celebrity that way in a Christian college.
[WallyMorris]I would be very interested to know what those at BJU who have written/published about separation think about this and what the Bible/Seminary faculty think about this. Unfortunately, I imagine they are restricted in what they can say publicly.
Still waiting for someone who supports Tebow’s speaking at BJU to give an example of a “Christian athlete” whom they would object to speaking at BJU.
Probably depends on the situation, but part of this comes down to how you define “Christian”. Real Christian walking in good faith, no problem, right? But off the top of my head, Evander Holyfield comes to mind—so-called Christian with a litany of moral failures. If I followed things more closely, I’d be able to come up with more. I can also see BJU (or really any solid fundagelical school) declining to host a speaker with views contradicting the statement of faith.
Side note is that if BJU is really paying the kind of speaker’s fee Don’s sources suggest, they may suffer a bit because after venue, waitstaff, and the like, it’ll be hard to crack that kind of numbers unless it really brings in support. And then I would tend to agree with Don and others along the lines of “OK, your wallet opens up for your alma mater only when this guy comes? Seriously?”
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Don Johnson]Well, first of all, I will clarify that my objection is PRIMARILY about the exaltation of celebrity culture. This is nothing more than loving the world, in my opinion. My concern is that it manifests a lack of holiness…
Is it right to use celebrity to separate Christians from their money for the purposes of an intercollegiate sports program?
I suppose those who attend will be happy to support the poverty stricken waif, Tim Tebow, and the aspiring athletes of BJU. But I know where I would spend my money, and it isn’t for those causes.
Uncharitable is the kindness printable word I can say about some of Don’s comments. Not sure what kind of holiness uses this kind of sarcasm about a brother. Tebow makes good money - fine. I have no idea what he does with it but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gives much of it away.
The separation reflex of this dying brand of Fundamentalism is consistent but has no biblical basis and resorts to desperate arguments. Having said that, I would not appear with Jakes and other heretics like him because of biblical separation. However, it seems that Tebow is on a trajectory in the right direction (Piper, etc.). It may be that those who receive him as a brother have the opportunity to come alongside Tebow to encourage and disciple him. Separation reflex Fundamentalists will never have that opportunity because they not only separate first but then attack uncharitably. I’d love to sit down with Tebow, hear his story, pray with him, and maybe help him see some issues (I would do the same with Don and maybe he can help me). I won’t get that chance. Maybe Steve Pettit will. In the meantime, Tebow has a credible testimony, good character, and as far as I know scandal-free. I think Bob Jones Sr. used to say something like (and I misquote) - “go as far as you can with someone on the right road.” There may be a time to separate from Tebow. But separation reflex Fundamentalists never even take the first step on the right road because all roads lead to compromise.
I believe BJ is going in the right direction, wanting to please the Lord, and continue training men and women for ministry. I am encouraged by Tebow’s invitation to speak since it might open the door for me to speak there someday. (I’m not looking for an invitation but promise that I will not pose shirtless in GQ unless they make me an offer I can’t refuse).
[AndyE]dgszweda wrote:
I would agree with the objection to celebrity culture, but this is an odd one, since the only celebrity status Tim really has is the fact that he has had public platforms where he stood up for his Christian beliefs. He is not really a celebrity for his sports achievements. He has had some success here in the past, but not really that stellar. He isn’t even a celebrity in the secular world. His “celebrity” status is typically around his Christian beliefs. I equate it very similar to Dan Quayle and when he came to BJU to speak.
“He isn’t even a celebrity in the secular world” — Oh, no, Tim is a huge celebrity in secular world. Just as an example, one article I read said there were over 200 people at his first Jets press conference where he was introduced as the backup quarterback. He a Heisman Trophy Winner, two-time college football national champion, NFL playoff winning quarterback, ESPN analyst, and hit a home run on the first pitch he saw as a hitter in the Mets organization. HIs Christian beliefs play into it for sure, but make no mistake, he is way famous!
He is indeed famous but not because he is a star athlete. He is just a sub-par athlete (through the lens of professional sports) that Christians decided to like and evangelicals have enough power as a block to propel people like that to stardom. He is like the Duggars (special primarily because they don’t believe in birth control) or the Robertsons of Duck Dynasty (special because they have a business and are willing to play rednecks on TV). Christians just seem to want to find people in popular culture they can root for.
I have long said that Christians need to up their standard for what a hero is. That is taking nothing away from Tebow as a person or his character because I have no doubt whatsoever that he is a great person, regardless of how much money he takes for speaking fees (the more the better as far as I am concerned). I just don’t really get why someone like that is a household name in the evangelical community.
[Don Johnson] The fact that Jim saw fit to post this news item as a filing shows that something got his attention about it. Was he just trying to stir up comments here? Or is it because he is reacting to something that doesn’t seem to fit the BJU ethos we have known for so long? Or maybe it is something else, Jim can comment if he likes.
I commented earlier but did not fully respond b/c I was preparing to go off to my Dr’s appointment (where I received this news).
Now my full response: I don’t post filings with these intents:
- to stir up comments here
- reacting to something that doesn’t seem to fit the BJU ethos we have known for so long
Perhaps some don’t know that:
- I’m not the only one who posts Filings. Tyler does too as well as Aaron
- My sources for Filings are often: Emails, F/B messenger messages, Tweets, Direct Messages on Twitter, PM’s via the SI system, emails, and RSS feeds from other blogs (I use Feedly)
- I estimate that 2/3 of the Filings I post are sourced by someone suggesting it to me
- Hope this clears things up
Don,
I have read this string with great interest. I had no knowledge of this event until yesterday. To my knowledge, this event had never been discussed in any board meetings or committee meetings. Intercollegiate sports can be a good thing for a school, but it also has its dangers. MBU has successfully demonstrated that a college can have such a sports program and avoid the pitfalls. BJU is learning, sometimes the hard way, about those pitfalls. I think it was very unwise to have Tim in for this fundraiser for some of the reasons you have stated. I also understand the difference between an Athletic banquet or fundraiser and chapel services or Bible Conference services. Though I admire Tim for his public stand on the gospel against enormous ridicule from the press and others, there are other speakers that could have been invited who don’t have some of the issues that you mentioned. I have one pastor friend who has three sons in NCAA division one basketball, baseball, and football. This pastor and his sons would have been excellent speakers at such an event. I don’t think this event, however, is part of a trend. Nor do I know who is responsible for inviting him.
Pastor Mike Harding
Someone sent me this link. You be the … evaluator
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
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