Bob Jones University and the Bruins Foundation are hosting “An Evening with Tim Tebow”
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….so the fact that Tebow is a less than compelling dancer in an air band competition is more significant than sharing the stage with the Pope and T.D. Jakes?
#Priorities, I guess.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]All three, including this sexually suggestive lip sync monstrosity, are “contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God” (1 Tim 1:10-11). Do we really have to rank these? All three are a disgrace. Priorities, indeed….….so the fact that Tebow is a less than compelling dancer in an air band competition is more significant than sharing the stage with the Pope and T.D. Jakes?
#Priorities, I guess.
[Don Johnson]Someone sent me this link. You be the … evaluator
Ok, I’ll backtrack a little on my comments. Not that I agree with Don because that would be odd. I never heard of the show Lip Sync and don’t know when it took place. I don’t know if BJ knew and so on. And the detractors had decided before searching for or sent ammo. But I would still like to give the benefit of the doubt, until shown otherwise, that this was something Tebow did and looking back has regrets. Maybe that’s part of his speech on the challenges he faces. “Look I struggled with being a celebrity, made some choices, accepted some invitations, etc. I didn’t see it at the time but looking back, yeh I blew it a few times.” I can even write the speech. Seriously, maybe others have had this conversation with him, or should.
[AndyE] All three, including this sexually suggestive lip sync monstrosity, are “contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God” (1 Tim 1:10-11). Do we really have to rank these? All three are a disgrace. Priorities, indeed…
Waiting for the next edition of “Proclaim and Defend”!
Or does the FBFI just throw John MacArthur under the bus while giving their fostering mother a pass?! A big test!
Waiting for Godet Don!
The elephant in the room, which after 124 comments hasn’t been mentioned, is that Tebow is a Florida Gator. If there was ever cause to exercise separation, being a Gator is it! I’m worried about you brothers’ failure to note this unredeemable flaw in Tebow.
Go Noles!
[AndyE]All three, including this sexually suggestive lip sync monstrosity, are “contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God” (1 Tim 1:10-11). Do we really have to rank these? All three are a disgrace. Priorities, indeed….
Andy, these still don’t really compare, since preaching a false gospel is worthy of “anathema,” which is something we wouldn’t say about regular non-Christians. And as bad as that video looked for his testimony, I still wouldn’t compare it to preaching a false gospel. There are plenty of examples of men declared “godly” in the Bible who failed worse than this. That said, unless this is something he now regrets, choosing him to speak at BJU does seem to be an odd choice if he’s going to be giving his testimony and held up as a Christian example.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]Dave — Tim didn’t preach a false gospel but by giving Christian recognition to those who do, he effectively corrupts the gospel. The same goes with that video that is contrary to the gospel and the changed life of holiness that should result from a redeemed person living out the gospel. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.” (Titus 2:10-11)Andy, these still don’t really compare, since preaching a false gospel is worthy of “anathema,” which is something we wouldn’t say about regular non-Christians. And as bad as that video looked for his testimony, I still wouldn’t compare it to preaching a false gospel. There are plenty of examples of men declared “godly” in the Bible who failed worse than this. That said, unless this is something he now regrets, choosing him to speak at BJU does seem to be an odd choice if he’s going to be giving his testimony and held up as a Christian example.
Brother Tim Tebow,
If you see this page, I am sorry. I am not sure what you know about fundamentalism but inviting an athlete to a Christian ministry is not something new. Growing up I attended a church that promoted BJU, faced Greenville when they prayed (I confess exaggeration here), and at one time was the church that had the most people at BJU from their church. One of the biggest Sundays we ever had was when baseball star Don Kessinger came to speak. So, BJU is not doing anything inconsistent with the movement from which they are a part.
Secondly, Christians are just to speak better of each other and we don’t get a pass for judgementalism because we disagree on whether or not you should be a speaker.
If BJU invited you, hired you, or whatever, and you agreed to come, may you all have a wonderful evening.
[AndyE]Dave — Tim didn’t preach a false gospel but by giving Christian recognition to those who do, he effectively corrupts the gospel. The same goes with that video that is contrary to the gospel and the changed life of holiness that should result from a redeemed person living out the gospel. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.” (Titus 2:10-11)
I still have to disagree that giving recognition to those who preach a false gospel is qualitatively different from what he did in the video. You’re right, the video is contrary to holiness, but failing to live “soberly, righteously, and godly” is still different from either preaching a false gospel or giving recognition to those who do.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii] I still have to disagree that giving recognition to those who preach a false gospel is qualitatively different from what he did in the video. You’re right, the video is contrary to holiness, but failing to live “soberly, righteously, and godly” is still different from either preaching a false gospel or giving recognition to those who do.Ok, let me try one more time and see what you think. If the “grace of God that brings salvation” i.e., the gospel, teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, but we don’t live that way and we claim to be a Christian saved by the gospel – aren’t we saying something wrong about the gospel? Aren’t we saying the gospel doesn’t teach that? It doesn’t teach that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts? Aren’t we saying the gospel doesn’t change one’s life or release us from the power of sin? Aren’t we saying false things about the gospel? The passage I quoted a couple posts earlier from 1 Timothy 1 says that things like sexual immorality are contrary to sound doctrine and not in accordance with the gospel. If an activity is not in accordance with the gospel, isn’t that activity contrary to the gospel? In other words, both false doctrine and impure actions can corrupt the gospel message of a Christian testimony.
This discussion illustrates the HUGE division within broader Fundamentalism (very broadly defined). I suspect this division is what the BJU Administration is trying to balance in keeping the school open. Events over the last few years seem to indicate that the emphasis and influence is swinging away from the more conservative Fundamentalists. The future of BJU is with the next generation and their parents, who seem to be more open to casual dress in church, fewer Sunday services/meetings, elimination of church-wide prayer meetings, use of beverage alcohol, contemporary music, and separation for only a few limited issues, to name a few. BJU will survive, but only as a more conservative Liberty University.
Several have suggested and admitted that Tebow has made some bad decisions (as we all have) and that his speaking at BJU is an opportunity to help him better understand Biblical principles. Fair enough. I do that regularly with people, as all pastors do. But a fundraising forum is not the mechanism to do that. As Mike Harding suggested, other speakers could be available (but of course with less “drawing power”). I suspect someone at BJU did not do their homework on this, as they have failed to do in the past.
It’s important to keep discussing the issue of separation (with civility, of course) in order to work out how to do this better. Unlike the situations in Acts, we do not have any apostles to give uniform direction - We have to work this out, a legacy of the Protestant Reformation. I do not think, however, that open letters to Tim Tebow (which he will never see) are helpful - seems to be theatrics and grandstanding.
Don has provided important information about this, information that I assume BJU was not aware of. If they were and invited Tebow anyway, then there’s more wrong at BJU than we know.
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
You’re judging motives, this time mine. Yeah, the only reason why I’m speaking up in Don’s defense is because we tend to agree with each other on this issue. How exactly do you know my heart? Not only that, but I’m now a hypocrite. Now you’re judging me and my motives. You really intend to do that? And this is helpful how?
Adam, you and I both know that you agree with Don on this, and my point is that it is a part of what you are doing. I never said that it was the whole deal, and don’t believe that it is the sole reason.
I would not have expressed myself using Don’s wording, but I’m not Don, and that’s his choice. He’s entitled to his opinion, even with a touch of sarcasm. How did his comments violate the comment policy? If so, why didn’t Jim or another moderator step in? (Jim, you are here, right?) This is the first time I’ve read anyone saying anything in this discussion about a violation of the comment policy.
Here’s the Comment Policy, with emphasis added:
C. Do not engage in rude or other un-Christlike conduct, including—but not limited to the following:
- derogatory name-calling or attacks on the motives of other participants
- malicious ridiculing of other participants
- focusing negatively on the people involved in the discussion rather than the topic
- intentionally disrupting a discussion or posting off topic
Since the thread is about Tim Tebow, I think that the first and third points apply. To be honest, that first sentence for section C is more than sufficient. You may disagree, but that’s how I would interpret the policy. I felt this same way when I was helping with the admin side of SI a few years ago.
If Don, in your judgment, sinned, what steps are you supposed to take, Jay? I think you already know.
Adam, when people call me on things here on SI, I have apologized and said that I was out of line on multiple occasions. I believe that you have even read and replied to some of those apologies on occasion. I think that it behooves Don, as both a minister of the gospel (hello?) and as a member of this site to do likewise. Just because Tim Tebow isn’t a member here does not excuse Don’s behavior at all. Furthermore, I am sick to death of Don throwing things like that out in discussion threads and then walking away without being called on it. I could document that as well fairly easily if I were so inclined.
I’ve read far worse things at SI. Can’t say I’ve rarely if ever seen anyone raise concerns about the comment policy.
No, I’ve remarked on this before, and I also discussed it with the admin team when I was assisting with the site. If you search this site with my name as the author and the keyword “comment policy”, you will see that I have referenced it many times over several years.
Finally, I’ll close by citing a post of mine from 2014:
So I do not apologize, at all. Someone mentioned calling a spade a spade…well, that’s what I’m doing. And if you don’t like it - tough. Truth hurts, and I’m not interested in pulling punches anymore for the sake of a false, lying, skin deep ‘unity’ with people who will stick a knife in my back if they think I’m out of line. They’ll know where I stand now.
I’m standing by that post from three and a half years ago.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I’m sure Tebow is a fine young man. Everything in his public persona indicates such. Contrary to the going feeling on this thread I don’t think anyone here is denying the obviousness of his seemingly genuine good character. I don’t think the issue is on him as a person, his message, or even his influence. The issue is, however, on the source of his influence and what will be required to maintain it, and that is an entirely biblical issue.
Twice Paul, also a fine young man of strong character, overwhelming motivation, and a very public persona, was provided the opportunity of unprecedented influence in a pagan world. In Acts 14 he was crowned as the Lystrican idol (“And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying…the gods are come down to us in the likeness of men… [vs. 11] ”). Can there be a more influential position than to be declared by the reigning pagan authority as the one who speaks for the gods on earth? Two chapters later the sorceress of record in Philippi, a woman who people were willing to pay great sums to in order to hear her proclamations, proclaimed him to be the source of God’s truth—“These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.”
Interesting to me is that Paul, whose passion was to preach the Gospel in every legitimate forum (“… woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!”) absolutely decries these opportunities in no uncertain terms: “Which when …Paul, heard of…rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God…And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them [Acts 14:14FF] “ and “…Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her [Acts 16:18].” Like Jesus Christ himself who never allowed demons to testify of Him even when that testimony was absolutely true, Paul also refused the influence/testimony granted through the pagan culture knowing that, according to the scripture (Acts 15; I Cor. 8-10; II Cor. 6 among others) that the influence provided by the pagan culture would eventually incorporate the pagan mind into the individual, the message, and Christ’s church.
There are tons of young men with equal character, motivation (even if not the athletic skills), message, and who are spiritually gifted to publicly deliver a message of equal import. But they would not be considered because they lack the influence provided by the most pagan elements of our culture—our absolute worship of all things celebrity and of the culture of high profile athletics (esp. football).
On an individual level I would love to meet Tebow, spend some time talking with him. As a mouthpiece/identity for the face of the sports mission of a school whose primary mission to this point was in the training of preachers and other vocational ministers of the gospel I am not too excited about this opportunity.
Lee
Regarding that video, yes, it’s rhythmic calisthenics imitating bad dancing, it’s definitely not something I’d watch (in fact I could only take a few seconds, I’m not much for Survivor to begin with), and yes, the tank top is intended to do something visually….yes, but….don’t y’all think it’s a bit of a stretch to call it sexual immorality per 1 Tim. 1:10-11? Infringement on modesty, yes, would make our Victorian ancestors fall on the fainting couch, yes, but….seriously? Calling it sexual immorality really does injustice to the definition of Strong’s 4202, don’t you think?
And regarding him shaking Obama’s hand….Hello? Does anyone remember he was there with the national champion football team? BJU may, or may not, be going to a conservative evangelical stance like Wally suggests, but if people keep doing nit-picking at every little thing someone does, can we blame people for hitting the crash bars and not looking back?
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
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