Changes at BBS Reflect Growing Ministry Trends

The resident model is great for churches near Minneapolis, Detroit, Des Moines, Watertown, Greenville, etc etc. Not always as immediately great for congregations 2 hours or more away from them.
Distance models, whether online, module, or hybrid, help close that gap. People can learn while the serve. That helps churches in real time as well as down the road, but it also helps the student. A pastor or potential pastor can better understand what he needs a particular class or discipline for… how what he is acquiring will be a useful tool (but not necessarily a single, specialty focus that he wants to dedicate the rest of his life to). It isn’t that a residence model doesn’t provide service opportunities, but usually by nature they are more urban/suburban just because of where schools are located. A rural church can help develop someone, but send them off and never really get much benefit from the service that person could contribute.
I’m not arguing here for one model being superior over the other. I am simply observing that each has different benefits.

Don:

In 1980, the FBFI issued a number of resolutions. Resolution 80.01c affirms the deity of Christ. In the same set of resolutions, FBFI affirms a national defense posture of maintaining nuclear weapons capabilities in 80.07, and a characterization of sensual music in resolution 80.12

According to your response last evening, the membership of FBFI believes each of these resolutions to be true.

I characterize myself as having a Biblical world view. For me, a key element to a Biblical world view is that there is absolute truth, and that absolute truth is eternal and will never change. I believe that Jesus Christ is deity and is God. This is a Biblical and absolute truth. I am not willing to discuss this in the sense that I am unwilling to be persuaded otherwise.

I am unwilling to classify a national defense position or a position on worship music as absolute truth. I do not believe there is Biblical evidence to come to a truth conclusion on either one. However, if the membership of FBFI has deemed that the positions of 80.07 and 80.12 are matters of Biblical truth, and therefore on the same level as the deity of Christ, would it similarly not be willing to be persuaded otherwise? Would that not mean that any discussion about them would be more apologetic than persuasive in nature?

I believe that an apologetic discussion is different than the type of discussion that TylerR was speaking about, and the type of discussion that might be beneficial in a seminary or church.

I, too, treasure and benefit from these interactions online.

You know what, you guys have convinced me of the value of online interactions. In light of that, I’m going to try to convince our pastors and elders to go to an all-online model for our church—preaching, teaching, corporate worship, and counseling will all take place online and via email.

Come to think of it, perhaps I should ask my wife if we could move all conversations between us to email and text. :)

Look, I obviously don’t have some kind of conscientious objection to online education as I am an online instructor. It certainly has a place for some who have the choice of online education or no education. But to pretend nothing is lost… (which is why I’m sending my high school senior away to Liberty as a residential student rather than staying home as an online student…online college education was really not an option we put on the table for him as a graduating high school senior).

I agree with the comment above that the hybrid model seems to be the best of both worlds in today’s changing educational culture.

Mod note: The FBFI discussion should be on another thread

Feel free to create one

Thanks

Yes, Paul wrote letters to churches, which is “distance education.” But he almost always expressed his desire to come to visit them in order to see and interact with them face to face.

Let’s apply the online/virtual/independent study method of education to homeschooling, and consider a few things:

• Many homeschooled children do not have direct interaction with their teachers. In my case, my wife doesn’t really “teach” our children. They have workbooks. They read the directions. They read the lesson. They do the work. My wife corrects, and helps them if they don’t understand. Repeat the next day. There is no real “teacher” interaction, and my wife doesn’t formally “teach” in that way at all.
• My children use a software curriculum (Teaching Textbooks) to learn math. My son is starting Pre-Algebra in the Fall, and has never had personal interaction with a bona fide math teacher in his entire life. He can still do math.
• My middle son has been studying piano for three years. It is all online, via pre-recorded video and workbook. He plays wonderfully.

I suspect my little anecdotes are normal for homeschooling parents. Here is the point:

• My children have NEVER had actual contact with a living, breathing “teacher” in a lecture context or personal discussion context in their entire lives. They are being edu-ma-cated just fine. :)
• My children have NEVER had actual contact with a living, breathing “fellow student” in a lecture context or class discussion and collaboration context in their entire lives. Yet, they’re bein’ lern’d real good.

It strikes me that the independent study/online model is widely accepted in large swaths of the homeschooling world. However, when it comes to University and Seminary, skepticism raises its head. Why? The same method thousands of us use to educate our kids from K-12 is suddenly insufficient for secondary education? Odd.

[Jim]

Mod note: The FBFI discussion should be on another thread

Feel free to create one

Thanks

Not discussing, just clarifying. I don’t know what JB Lee is talking about, but he made a misstatement and I wanted to clear the record. I’m not interested in discussing it further with him.

Tyler, you are certainly correct that multitude of homeschooling families use a similar model, and the vast majority seem to do very well. I commend you and your wife for choosing the education approach that you believe works best for you and your family.

I should mention that from what I understand, standardized test scores show no difference between students in traditional classrooms and virtual classrooms (and in some cases virtual classrooms test better).

Some friendly push back with a few questions:

• Many homeschooling families take advantage of “homeschooling co-ops” or something similar, where they “pool” resources for combined instruction (often with a live, in-person teacher) and/or student interaction. Isn’t this because these homeschoolers recognize the value of in-person instruction in some cases as well as peer interaction? Does your family utilize any such approach? Wouldn’t this be similar to a “hybrid” model?
• Do you approach “theological” education for your children in the same way? In other words, do they learn Scripture and theology online, with no instruction at your local church and with “no real teacher interaction” apart from perhaps some correction from your wife?
• Do your children play musical instruments? If so, do they take lessons online? If not, why not?
• Are your children learning to play sports? If so, do they do so through exclusively online instruction? If not, why not?
• Would there be any careers where pure online education and training would be insufficient?

Here are my brief answers:

• My wife tried co-ops for PE once. She didn’t like it, because she felt the other moms were part of a clique and she didn’t fit in. There isn’t anything good along those lines near where we live. My wife doesn’t like the co-op model. She prefers to fly solo with the kids, and not be obligated to teach other people. My kids prefer it, too.
• Theological education is done by family devotions, church, and through a workbook-based Bible curriculum during homeschool.
• My middle son takes guitar lessons because we couldn’t find a quality online model. He’s also taken piano lessons online for three years. He’s never had an in-person piano lesson in his life. We went with online because it is cheaper and more convenient.
• My children take track and field through a local organization, so they can compete against other kids.

It strikes me that a lot of the debate over online vs. in person seminary (education in general) has to do with the venue of interpersonal interaction, not the reality. That is, I don’t think that anyone here is denying that a prospective elder can do so without this—all of the qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus are determined that way. The question at hand is really whether we need that interpersonal interaction when qualifying for the “apt to teach”, learning Greek, hermeneutics, you name it.

And as has been noted before, the plus of residential seminary is that one rubs shoulders with other similarly qualified people, and hopefully a lot of fairly eminent people. The coffee bar interactions can, if done well, sand down the rough spots in amazing ways. Yes, email works as well, but you lose “the look” that says “next time we burn you at the stake.” (or something like that)

The down side is that sometimes a seminary can simply be a way to guarantee conformity—whether good or bad—and youth of prospective candidates may (may) enhance that in some critical ways. For example, I knew a “pastor” who was still “running the plays” he’d learned at BJU as a young man, right down to the 1960s suit styles he was still wearing. He’d learned how to run 1960s era BJU chapel services well, but could not see when differing sources (e.g. Chick on the KJV/Old Latin vs. Sorenson on KJV/TR) contradicted themselves completely. In other words, he’d not learned to think for himself.

Thanks Tyler. Having “pushed back” on you, let me “push back” on myself and acknowledge the validity of several of the points you have presented.

• There is no doubt that in many cases the cost of residential education is bloated, and that many students are paying for services they don’t need or won’t use.
• Individuals such as yourself who are self-motivated can benefit greatly from online education and save a ton of money.
• And as I have already said, for quite a number of folks there really is no other option than online education, so its increasing availability is a wonderful blessing to them.

For those looking for a theological foundation for online education, 1 of my professors and 2 of my fellow students in the SBTS EdD program (class of ‘14) are co-writers on the following book to be released this December:

Teaching the World: Foundations for Online Theological Education

If I lived near Watertown, I’d prefer to do everything on-site. I just don’t. I think Bro. Linscott’s comments (above) pretty well sum things up - different models will work for different people. It’s good to have some options.

[Greg Long] Come to think of it, perhaps I should ask my wife if we could move all conversations between us to email and text.

http://www.centralseminary.edu/resources/nick-of-time/the-future-of-sem…

The Association of Theological Schools, one of the premier seminary accrediting agencies, reports that in the past ten years student enrollment dropped by 11%, while online enrollment has increased by 195% during the same period. Twenty years ago, no ATS school offered any online courses in any format; yet, if current trends continue, the majority of students enrolled in an ATS school will be taking online classes in the near future

If Central would offer online options, I’d consider doing something beyond the MDiv with them. But, they don’t. So, I won’t. Olympia is a long way from Plymouth …