Changes at BBS Reflect Growing Ministry Trends

….Central going to more online education is going to hit FedEx hard! (FedEx has employed a lot of Central students over the years—they love ‘em)

Seriously, one thing that strikes me is that it’s not clear what the overall enrollment trend is. Is “physically there plus online” growing or shrinking? Central pioneered some of this with classes through a parallel school whose name escapes me now, and it strikes me that it could be a very good thing if seminary level educations started to be the province of not only elders, but also deacons and laymen, including older men who (per my earlier comments) would have some more maturity to go toe to toe with others.

[TylerR]

If Central would offer online options, I’d consider doing something beyond the MDiv with them. But, they don’t. So, I won’t. Olympia is a long way from Plymouth …

If you read the article…

This fall, if the Lord wills it, Central Seminary will begin a distance education program which will allow non-residential students to participate in classes in real time. While the idea and its implementation is not novel, the capabilities of the software and technology employed have finally caught to the application. Distance students will be able to interact with students and professors while the rigor and expectations remain the same. No degree will be diminished in any way, ensuring the continuation of clear theology and excellence for which our institution is known.

In other words, they’re implementing some kind of online option… in this case, an opportunity to take in the classes with a web cam (they’re using https://zoom.us/).

I stand corrected. I thought I’d read the article before, but now realize it came out today. Good for them. I hope it helps them out. If only DBTS could also begin something with distance-learning …

http://sharperiron.org/comment/91300#comment-91300

It’s going to be real time. So it is distance education, but not time-shifted education

Will be interesting to see if that serves the needs of the market

In Central’s plan: It’s at the convenience of the profs - not the students

Another approach is just the opposite: Evening classes at the convenience of the students

[Craig Toliver]

http://sharperiron.org/comment/91300#comment-91300

It’s going to be real time. So it is distance education, but not time-shifted education

Will be interesting to see if that serves the needs of the market

In Central’s plan: It’s at the convenience of the profs - not the students

Another approach is just the opposite: Evening classes at the convenience of the students

I don’t know how this is going to be applied out, but I do know that the Zoom interface that Central is using includes a recording option, so it’s at least possible that a student could take in the class asynchronously.

I admitted up front I am old and stodgy on this. I have done both types of education in one form or another, unlike some. And I think there are very clear reasons why in person education is far superior, particularly in in lower levels (college and MDiv). But on to the response …

First, how many people in a local church are prepared to discuss theories of the atonement? Or the openness of God? How many can have a halfway decent conversation about verbal aspect theory? Or philosophy of church ministry? How many can talk about the Nicene creed and why it matters? How many can offer an informed viewpoint on textual criticism? The answer is virtually none, correct? Which means that the very things that prospective pastors need to be learning and interacting about are the very things that no one is able to interact about unless they get around the kind of people that gather in seminaries. If anything, the virtual world has taught us just how dangerous this can be. Online interaction has revealed a lot of ill-equipped people trying to have these kinds of discussions. And the problem is they don’t know they are ill-equipped and they won’t listen to those who tell them. That’s not a slam on church members. It’s reality. And it’s not unbiblical. It’s reality. Church members are not required to know what pastors are required to know.

Second, by Tyler’s own admission, he has never had the very thing he says is not needed. So how would he know it’s not needed and helpful? If you don’t know what you are missing, then it seems to me to be ill-advised to be dogmatic about its benefit or lack thereof.

Third, I am sure that brick and mortar types of education are diminishing. I, unlike some, rue the day because I think it will not be good overall. But I think we won’t know it until it is too late.

Today’s Nick of Time is timely, though perhaps it has missed the nick of time. There are things that simply cannot happen in disembodied interaction. It’s one reason why we don’t go to church on TV from a recliner. It should be a strong factor in the way we carry out education.

I can discuss all of those things with you, and I’ve done all my theological training online. A few comments on the topics you selected:

• You won’t settle the theory of atonement in class. You have to do some reading and writing on your own.
• You also won’t settle verbal aspect theory in class; your textbook will settle it for you, and the teacher will stake out his position along the way. You usually won’t spend much time having detailed discussions about it. That boat will have sailed with first year grammar, and second year syntax. You’ll have to read a bit on your own. Campbell’s book is good.
• If you go to a fundamental Baptist seminary, you won’t be talking about creeds and confessions much anyway! Too bad …
• I can offer an informed viewpoint on textual criticism, and I did my textual criticism assignments through virtual education, in class with my peers.
• I do have discussions with the kinds of people who gather in seminaries - I just emailed my former Greek professor something the other day.

Let me repeat - I can discuss all these interesting theological topics with you until the cows come home, and I have never attended a full-length, on-campus Seminary class in my entire life. Your examples have been destroyed. Annihilated. They cease to exist. Vaporized. Poof. There are many, many other younger guys like me who have the same experience. Your arguments don’t hold up, because we disprove them by our very existence. All you have left is to argue for a quality distinction, and that, too, is an argument fore-doomed to failure.

I have a degree from a secular, brick and mortar college, and I don’t miss the direct student and teacher interaction. I also wouldn’t classify an MDiv as “lower level;” it’s the same amount of credits attorneys get for their JD, and that’s a doctorate.

Why are less men going to seminary?

• Decline in the number of churches?
• Labor oversupply?
• Sign of spiritual decline?
• Low salaries are a turn off?

Don’t know

Fundamentalist institutions are losing people to evangelical seminaries. They’re regionally accredited, and are not actively or passively hostile towards Reformed soteriology. That’s why.

[Jim]

Why are less men going to seminary?

• Decline in the number of churches?
• Labor oversupply?
• Sign of spiritual decline?
• Low salaries are a turn off?

Don’t know

With all due love to the Pareto Principle, I think the answers are by anyone’s measure yes, yes, yes, and yes. One way of seeing this is that low wages lead to pastors staying in the pulpit long after they lose the mental and physical vigor to minister effectively, which in turn is an oversupply of the labor and a cause of spiritual decline, and then this results in a decline in the number of churches.

Again, count me 100% in favor of having ordinary pew-sitters and deacons know a bit of Hebrew and Greek, principles of hermeneutics and the like. Make it affordable, and I bet you see a much higher quality of church leadership and membership—even if their fingers never touch the doors of their seminary.

[Larry] Today’s Nick of Time is timely, though perhaps it has missed the nick of time.

Sounds like perhaps you are suggesting the Central “missed the boat” by joining the on-line trend late?

[Jim]

Why are less men going to seminary?

• Decline in the number of churches?
• Labor oversupply?
• Sign of spiritual decline?
• Low salaries are a turn off?

Don’t know

Sounds like perhaps you are suggesting the Central “missed the boat” by joining the on-line trend late?

To the contrary, I am suggesting that the warnings about consumerism and shortcutism may be too late to be of real use.

I can discuss all of those things with you, and I’ve done all my theological training online.

Not with me because I am not going to get involved in a discussion that deep online. It is a poor forum for serious discussion, IMO. I have done it before and it is too unwieldy and unprofitable. But more to the point, you didn’t say you could discuss it with me. You were talking about having local church interaction. And that was my point. People in the local church at not equipped to discuss this at the level that prospective pastors need to be discussing it and learning it.

Your examples have been destroyed. Annihilated. They cease to exist. Vaporized. Poof. There are many, many other younger guys like me who have the same experience. Your arguments don’t hold up, because we disprove them by our very existence.

You might be a little over confident here but challenging this in a face to face setting would certainly be a much better venue for discussion.

The existence of something doesn’t prove anything as to its superiority. There are a lot of things that exist that are inferior, though usable.

I think the trend towards distance ed might tend, might tend, towards an unhealthy consumerism where people can get what they want without making the sacrifice. I think there is a shortcut mentality among some (not all perhaps) but among some that don’t want to put the time and effort in because it would cost too much to move and be hard to get a “good paying job” (whatever that means). And IMO, that is a dangerous thing because before long we won’t know what we are missing. It seems little at first. But then we look bad and realize how far we have come.

I also wouldn’t classify an MDiv as “lower level;” it’s the same amount of credits attorneys get for their JD, and that’s a doctorate.

MDiv is a foundational level ministry degree. MDiv is a very formative degree. A ThM and a PhD are post graduate degrees that are geared toward research for one who has built a solid foundation.

Very well. On to other things!