Clarks Summit University Plans to Sell Seminary Building

[Joeb]

I mentioned this before on a prior thread. Clarks Summit’s sister school in Michigan which I can’t recall the name, is ahead of the curve in this transitioning process. My brother who is a Pastor commented that this seminary was the go to seminary for young students seeking an M Div.in the US. My brother further commented that this seminary had all the best teachers and that was what was attracting the Students.

My brother went to Bethel Seminary in the early 80s and he said back then Bethel spent the money to get all the top Profs. My Brother said today Bethel College pulled the financial plug on the seminary and now is doing what it used to do putting country preachers out on the street.

The Michigan School maybe Jim’s alma mata. Little help with the Michigan school name fellows. The point I’m making is success can come if the transition is handled right.

I think you are talking about Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, which used to be a GARBC approved school. I graduated from there in 2006. One of the main reasons they have survived and thrived as a seminary is their counseling program. You can graduate with an M.A. in counseling where they can get their LLPC or LPC. My wife is a little more than half way through the program with an emphasis on trauma counseling. They also started different cohort groups, including urban cohorts (Masters of Biblical Studies) which has developed relationships with African-American and Latino churches to train pastors in cities throughout Michigan, including Grand Rapids, Detroit, Kalamazoo, and Flint. Many of these pastors get 50-80% of their tuition paid based on need. And they do have a traditional MDiv program as well. Although there is 2 years requirement of mentored ministry preparation with the MDiv, they have not sacrificed Biblical languages for practical ministry.

Just throwing this in for the fun of it I guess. I’ve long felt that the most useful part of orig. language education can be learned far more efficiently than I learned it. All told, I think it was 4 semesters undergrad Greek, four more of seminary Greek and two of Hebrew… maybe. Long time ago.

But based on what I’ve observed in pastors in general and what I’ve found useful for exposition, most guys need a couple of semesters of English Grammar or, better, “grammatical concepts” and then a semester of “original language tools.” … and then your language specific stuff (actually need to reverse that: lang specific, then the tools—which is mostly software now)

What was truly helpful in four semesters of Greek could have been crammed into one—because I had a strong grammar/”grammatical concepts” background. The advantage of the grammar concepts + smaller amount of language-specific training is that students also get better at the logic of language in general, and, as a result, the logic of the English language. Since it’s ultimately about communicating the meaning of the text to English speaking people, you need well honed English skills as well as the Grk/Heb exposure.

…. and if you don’t grasp grammar in general, study of Grk/Heb. will not do you much good for exposition.

I had 2 years of Greek in my B.A., and then 2 more years of Greek and 2 years of Hebrew for my 96 credit hour M.Div. at FBTS. Although it was painful at the time (especially Hebrew), I am really, really glad I took the languages—though right now I don’t use Greek regularly and Hebrew not at all (2 years was only enough to scratch the surface, and I just didn’t keep up with it).

But let’s be honest…what’s really the incentive for a man to choose an M.Div. that includes languages vs. one that doesn’t, unless he just wants to get the languages? Do we really think most churches who see an M.Div. on a resume will say, “Wait a minute, is that a full M.Div. with languages or not?” In other words, most men understand that most churches will not distinguish one M.Div. from another. The only other reason he might choose an M.Div. with languages is if he wants to go on to doctoral work…or maybe translation work.

It bothers me that M.Divs are being handed out for less work than I had to do, but realistically it seems that will be more and more the direction it heads.

Aaron’s right about a lot of people not getting English grammar—I knew a pastor whose Greek professor flat out told him that he might do well to drop his class and learn English first. Having heard him “preach” two and a half hours without really saying anything, I’m not sure he succeeded in that endeavor.

Along those same lines, I agree with Greg that a lot of churches are not going to prefer those who have learned the original languages, but at the same time, my experience with pastors is that those who have little or no understanding of the original languages are a LOT weaker in exegesis and what follows than those who’ve put in the time to learn them. There should be a point where people like us stand up when it’s time to select a new pastor and say “I want to see what you’ve done to learn the original languages.” It’s not a guarantee of quality, but it is a gut check that says “I know my own language well enough to learn a second.”

Yes, you’ll pay extra, but you’ll get a lot more, too.

[Aaron Blumer] But based on what I’ve observed in pastors in general and what I’ve found useful for exposition, most guys need a couple of semesters of English Grammar or, better, “grammatical concepts” and then a semester of “original language tools.” … and then your language specific stuff (actually need to reverse that: lang specific, then the tools—which is mostly software now)

Aaron, I agree that many men who enter Bible schools and seminaries almost need remedial English grammar courses. Fortunately for me, I was an English major and was familiar with most of the grammatical concepts taught in my Greek and Hebrew courses. However, some men in my language classes were struggling because they never understood English grammar (or the grammar of their native language).

As I reflect on my Greek and Hebrew courses, the greatest lessons I learned were not how to diagram sentences, parse verbs, etc., but how to use the original languages properly as tools in my exegesis. Dr. Decker repeatedly warned us about exegetical fallacies, “golden nugget” exegesis, over exegesis (particularly with verb tense-forms), spouting Greek/Hebrew from the pulpit, and conveying the idea to your people that they couldn’t trust their English translations and had to rely upon you because only you knew what the Bible really said.

[Greg Long]

But let’s be honest…what’s really the incentive for a man to choose an M.Div. that includes languages vs. one that doesn’t, unless he just wants to get the languages? Do we really think most churches who see an M.Div. on a resume will say, “Wait a minute, is that a full M.Div. with languages or not?”

Most churches would not know a M.Div. from an M.A. It would make little difference to a church, unless that church was aware of what the difference between the degrees is. Surely there has to be a way to shorten the M.Div., but keep the languages. I have not kept up with Greek and Hebrew like I should have, yet I can still use even the most technical commentaries out there and understand what I am reading, which I would not be able to do at all if I had not had Greek and Hebrew.

Jonathan Charles wrote: Most churches would not know a M.Div. from an M.A.

I don’t think it is so much an issue of churches not knowing the difference, but that there are more important things to them in selecting a pastor than whether or not the candidate has skill in handling God’s Word in its original languages.

Here’s something for everyone to consider privately - think about the last few pastoral searches you have been involved with and rank the following criteria in order in terms of what importance the hiring church placed on each category:

Preaching ability
Personal charisma
Proven track record of building ministry programs
Counseling ability
Personal standards
Wife in submission / Family in order
Ability to independently exegate scripture from original language
Financial Stewardship
Quality of personal recommendations

When comparing my own ranking with what seminaries are adjusting their curriculum towards, I’m not at all surprised!