Clarks Summit University Plans to Sell Seminary Building

It just goes to show you that, being independent, independent churches have no across-the-board requirements for the education of pastors. Where I grew up in the south it was a rare thing for a pastor to have a post-bachelor’s degree. I can’t think of a single pastor I knew with post-bachelor’s education. Where I’m at now, it can get really upside down where a pastor of a large church has only a 4 year degree and yet a pastor of a church of 90-100 is working on a D.Min. Go figure. A few years ago, when I looked into some SBC churches that were looking for pastors, they all wanted a pastor with a M.Div. from one of the SBC seminaries. I bet most independent Baptist churches wouldn’t know the difference between the requirements of a M.A. and a M.Div. I noted on a different thread that I’ve never met or learned of a PCA pastor without at least a M.Div. If independent churches had such expectations, the seminaries would be filled.

[Jonathan Charles] I bet most independent Baptist churches wouldn’t know the difference between the requirements of a M.A. and a M.Div.

Most folks outside of theological education circles (not just IFB people) don’t know the difference among an M.A., M.Div, and a Th.M. or between a D.Min. and a Ph.D.

…is how do we persuade churches to pay for young pastors to get that education, no? If you pay a Wal-mart wage getting your pastor, five will get you ten you’re not going to get a guy who spent six to eight years in college to get that job.

Two thoughts:

• I don’t know how in the world normal people pay for higher education. I have the GI Bill. I think churches and potential pastors need to start looking for quality, non-accredited seminaries to send their men to. Churches can’t afford to bankroll a seminary education, and students can’t afford to pay it. Bro Henebury, for example, runs just such an institution. You also have Tyndale. You also have Whitefield. Etc, etc. Think on it.
• Small, rural country churches will never be able to afford to pay a Pastor with a family enough to live. They’ll certainly never be able to afford to pay him enough to start making a dent in his student loan debt. Consider going dual-elder bi-vocational. Lower preaching expectations (e.g. frequency, not quality or content). Try to attract eager young, educated church planters from the usual seminaries. Convince them they have a ready and waiting mission field with an established church already waiting - they just need a good man (or two) to come lead them. Be reasonable.

I mentioned this before, but somebody in my position (e.g. seminary-trained, full-time secular job at the moment) could easily do one good sermon per week without breaking a sweat. I could add a Wednesday evening Bible study as well, but it would be short. Add another similar man into the mix, and you have a dual-elder church which doesn’t have a full-time Pastoral salary to worry about. This scenario is doable, if a church is willing and the trained men are willing.

How realistic is this in real life? I know it’s possible. I don’t know if it’s been happening.

I finished an MA in Church History from BJU in the fall of 2003, then stayed on for 3 more semesters of grad work (Hebrew, theology, etc., bucketed as toward an MDiv, although I had no intention to complete it). This was covered with a graduate assistantship. My wife also got her MEd and then went on faculty.

We moved to Omaha to get outside-of-academia experience helping at a church. The intention was to stay 5-10 years, and then pursue apologetics studies at Westminster. We wound up staying 8 years. When we first arrived, I got an entry-level job at a real estate title company, became the lead trainer, taught myself web development and database administration, and worked myself into a role doing policy writing, intranet development, and all kinds of other stuff. When we moved to Philadelphia to attend Westminster, they let me work from home. In God’s Providence, the liberal arts education at BJU meant that I was ready, once I got in the door, to take on all kinds of responsibilities for the company.

I am plodding through a PhD one course at a time, paying cash. I still work 40 hours, and I’m active in church leadership and service. (We have only one paid pastor, and it’s not me.) With the PhD, I couldn’t go any faster without throwing my family under the bus or bankrupting myself…so the PhD will just have to be paced appropriately.

So to Tyler…yes, normal people can pay for higher education, if they’re willing to approach it bi-vocationally,

[TylerR] I don’t know how in the world normal people pay for higher education. I have the GI Bill. I think churches and potential pastors need to start looking for quality, non-accredited seminaries to send their men to. Churches can’t afford to bankroll a seminary education, and students can’t afford to pay it.

One thing I appreciated about Clark Summit University (BBS) was their Training Timothys Scholarship. Basically, if the man takes so many credit hours / semester and the church contributes to his education, the seminary will match it with a grant/scholarship up to a certain amount. I was able to use this during my first two semesters at BBS because my church made a contribution to my degree. Churches that can afford to do so should have a line item in their budget for continuing education.

[TylerR] Small, rural country churches will never be able to afford to pay a Pastor with a family enough to live. They’ll certainly never be able to afford to pay him enough to start making a dent in his student loan debt. Consider going dual-elder bi-vocational. Lower preaching expectations (e.g. frequency, not quality or content). Try to attract eager young, educated church planters from the usual seminaries. Convince them they have a ready and waiting mission field with an established church already waiting - they just need a good man (or two) to come lead them. Be reasonable.

Bi-vocational is certainly a good option for these churches. Some of them even provide a parsonage as part of the deal, but I’d probably stay away from that. The issue with trying to attract eager, young seminary men is that these men will likely see this role as temporary until, “I find a real pastorate.” So, these churches become resume builders instead of places where the pastor develops long-term relationships with the people. And, this leads to a host of other problems…

I appreciate the comment about trying a different mode of theological education altogether, and while you can’t expect a pastor to know everything that a seminary would teach, I do have to wonder if we could give prospective seminarians a “head start” by really aggressively teaching the principles of exegesis and all.

And plus a billion on how anyone pays for college these days. I was blessed, but I know a lot of people who have six figures of student loan debt and a manufacturing job. It ain’t fun for anyone.

One final thought; I have generally had fairly poor “luck” with pastors who don’t have seminary training, especially if they haven’t tried to master at least one of the BIblical languages. There is a certain seriousness that is imparted by a good seminary, it seems.

Other schools are marketing a 5 year B.A./M.Div. Others have also shortened the M.Div. from 90+ credits to the 80’s or high 70’s. Baptist Bible Seminary is still a 94 credit program.

I’m assuming some seminaries which shorten their credits for the MDiv are ditching original languages. Not a good idea.

[TylerR] I’m assuming some seminaries which shorten their credits for the MDiv are ditching original languages.

Yes, that’s exactly what is happening. I would imagine that those who graduate with an M.Div sans Greek/Hebrew would have a tough time going on for a Th.M or D.Min. IMHO, my Greek and Hebrew classes were some of the most valuable classes I took during my M.Div. If I could, I would have skipped my class on dispensational premillenialism along with a couple of my pastoral theology classes and taken more exegesis classes.

But, I probably wasn’t the typical M.Div. student.

My most valuable classes have been New Testament Backgrounds, Systematic Theology (all of them) and Greek.

Where are the no Hebrew MDiv schools?

35 years ago I settled for a Master’s Degree, lacking only Hebrew for my MDiv. I was 34, getting married, and couldn’t afford taking another year of grad school for 6 credit hours.

Liberty appears to have a track for an English Bible MDiv, which has two classes on language tools (e.g. how to use Bibleworks). They do have a track for languages, but they only require 1.5 years of Greek, and 1.5 years of Hebrew. Pretty pitiful for a Seminary degree. Here is their MDiv degree completion plan.

By contrast, Maranatha (the best Seminary in the whole wide world, obviously) requires 2.5 years of Greek and 2 years of Hebrew.

Does the M.Div. have a future:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2013/october-online-only/does-…

[TylerR]

My most valuable classes have been New Testament Backgrounds, Systematic Theology (all of them) and Greek.

That if someone has done the hard work of learning at least one foreign language well, even a dead one, employers are going to notice. It would be interesting, really, to see a transcript like that of Jonathan Edwards or one of his contemporaries to see what we’d think of it. I am betting he’d get some attention from hiring managers with a strong background in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, along with higher classes in the ancient authors like Cato, Aristotle, Cicero, and the like. I am also guessing that you would see few courses like “church growth”.

Now certainly there can be a point where one becomes TOO academic, and certainly there are things pastors have to do today that they didn’t need to do in Edwards’ time. But if indeed an “academic” course of study tends to prepare people well for practical courses of study, we’d expect that Edwards’ “resume” might get more attention than a typical ministerial resume of today.

That said, a certificate in welding or something might not be a bad idea, either. :^)