"Church survival doesn't depend on music style."

My church, founded in 1963, added a separate contemporary service (in addition to the existing traditional service) on Sunday mornings in about 1994. At the time (I’ve been told), starting from scratch, that service grew slowly but steadily.

By the time I arrived in 2000, the contemporary service was outdrawing the traditional service. Perhaps six or seven years ago, we had to add another, second contemporary service on Sundays because the existing one was overflowing.

In August, 2014 we added a Saturday evening service, since we felt there was a need/demand for it in our area. (Statistics will tell you that about 30-35% of people who are employed are working on Sunday mornings, which rings true when one stops to think about it.) Well, we chose to make our Saturday service contemporary, based on the folks we thought were likely to attend. It started with typically 225 in attendance; now, less than two years later, it routinely draws 400 (and continues to grow).

Then in August of last year, with both of our Sunday contemporary services packed, we converted our gymnasium to a second auditorium, becoming a multi-venue church for two of our three Sunday service times. Since the overflowing services were/are contemporary, the music in the second venue is also contemporary. (Everything is live in the second venue except for the sermon, which is live-streamed from the main auditorium.)

What’s my point in describing all of this? From a church that was 100% traditional barely two decades ago, our attendance break-down today is about 20% traditional vs. about 80% contemporary. In the past two years alone, our attendance has increased by about 40% (we just had over 4,000 for Easter 2016 weekend, compared to about 2,800 for Easter 2014).

In which service type are we experiencing this growth? It’s virtually all in the contemporary services. The traditional service attendance has been steady, but relatively stagnant. It is in our contemporary services that we are seeing the great preponderance of visitors, new attendees, salvations, baptisms, and new members.

It’s worth noting that when i was a kid, I had the chance of looking at my granddad’s music collection—he died in 1963—and he had everything in there besides rap and rock-n-roll. My hunch is that if the music is done well—pay attention to the theological content and poetry of they lyrics, make sure that we’re actually doing the genre instead of just adding drums and electric guitar—a lot of squabbles will disappear. The trouble is that a lot of church “musicians” will need to take a few more lessons to achieve this. They don’t have to be Satchmo, but get some of those musical cues right for jazz or blues!

Three pictures of this. First, my stepdad, who paid his way through college partially by playing at a piano bar, noted that one church pianist we knew and loved mostly just played loud. Dynamics, even in traditional churches, are too often ignored—that removes a huge part of how the music ought to interact with us, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. (sometimes when I pay attention to this in my church’s choir, my kids joke that it’s almost as if I had a solo)

Another example is that many young harpists have taken to playing hard rock and heavy metal songs on the harp, and what’s surprising when one listens to “Harptallica” or the “Harp Twins” (or others) is that unless you knew the songs already, you’d simply listen contentedly—they’re really musically very good (both the original songs and the harp renditions).

Third, Weird Al. How many of us would cringe at “Gansta’s Paradise” but would chuckle along to “Amish Paradise”, or enjoy “Like a Surgeon” but not the original? All of these are demonstrations that if we pay attention to the critical points of genre, lyrics, poetry, and the like, a wide range of styles can be acceptable to a very wide range of people.

[Bert Perry]

The trouble is that a lot of church “musicians” will need to take a few more lessons to achieve this. They don’t have to be Satchmo, but get some of those musical cues right for jazz or blues!

Three pictures of this. First, my stepdad, who paid his way through college partially by playing at a piano bar, noted that one church pianist we knew and loved mostly just played loud. Dynamics, even in traditional churches, are too often ignored—that removes a huge part of how the music ought to interact with us, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. (sometimes when I pay attention to this in my church’s choir, my kids joke that it’s almost as if I had a solo)

Third, Weird Al. How many of us would cringe at “Gansta’s Paradise” but would chuckle along to “Amish Paradise”, or enjoy “Like a Surgeon” but not the original? All of these are demonstrations that if we pay attention to the critical points of genre, lyrics, poetry, and the like, a wide range of styles can be acceptable to a very wide range of people.

This is so seriously out of touch. Bert, you can slam church musicians all you want but in general, they work harder on their craft than people in almost any other area of church ministry. When is the last time you “took a few lessons” for whatever you do in church (which is itself silly because you don’t pick up the nuances of music in a few lessons anyway)?

A typical church musician will often work on for hours at home on a 3 minute piece of music that is a tiny fraction of a church service. What other ministry in the church do you see that kind of dedication in?

The truth is that there are a lot of churches out there and not nearly enough musicians. Churches have to take what they can get because almost all church musicians are amateurs and busy people with real jobs and families and don’t have the time to practice to get to the level you apparently think they should be at. It is just impossible on many levels for every church to have great music.

Greg, I realize you make a living doing this, and therefore are going to be sensitive about it, but no, I think I am seriously IN TOUCH about this. Let’s go through some examples:

1. About 90% of the time I hear Wagner’s Wedding March played, the organist or pianist is not completing the chords—they’ve learned to play mostly with the right hand.

2. Same thing goes for a lot of church pianists/organists in smaller churches do the same.

3. I’ve personally taught several people I’ve sung with in church choirs how to read music. Others have not quite caught on because there’s no one to teach them.

4. When a local Christian rock band came to play, I realized after their concert that I couldn’t remember a thing they’d said because the meter was all over the place—it was free verse without the genius of someone like Walt Whitman. Their drummer was also trying to cover for a bassist who simply wasn’t filing his role—which for most of their songs would have been variations on the 12 bar blues.

5. Choral songs brought to the church with, let’s be blunt here, far less than several hours of practice.

Your mileage may vary, but independent of the effort put into presenting the music, what I’m seeing in too many places is not exactly at a level where you’d have to get a Juilliard graduate to improve it, to put it mildly. And it is my contention that this, not the inherent differences in musical styles, is one of the primary drivers of the worship wars.

And when’s the last time I took some lessons or extra effort to improve my game in these things? Hint; I am an engineer. If I don’t do it daily, I quickly become unemployable, and I take that attitude to church as well.

It is harder and harder to find a church when moving into a new area that is traditional in music. And when you do find one, they often have some doctrinal issues (such as KJVO….).

With that said, one of the challenges I have had with the contemporary services is 1) a lack of regulative principles, 2) lack of theology around music, and 3) lack of understanding as to the purpose of worship. I have seen some contemporary services done right, but all too sadly I have seen way more done wrong.

[Bert Perry]

Greg, I realize you make a living doing this, and therefore are going to be sensitive about it, but no, I think I am seriously IN TOUCH about this. Let’s go through some examples:

1. About 90% of the time I hear Wagner’s Wedding March played, the organist or pianist is not completing the chords—they’ve learned to play mostly with the right hand.

2. Same thing goes for a lot of church pianists/organists in smaller churches do the same.

3. I’ve personally taught several people I’ve sung with in church choirs how to read music. Others have not quite caught on because there’s no one to teach them.

4. When a local Christian rock band came to play, I realized after their concert that I couldn’t remember a thing they’d said because the meter was all over the place—it was free verse without the genius of someone like Walt Whitman. Their drummer was also trying to cover for a bassist who simply wasn’t filing his role—which for most of their songs would have been variations on the 12 bar blues.

5. Choral songs brought to the church with, let’s be blunt here, far less than several hours of practice.

Your mileage may vary, but independent of the effort put into presenting the music, what I’m seeing in too many places is not exactly at a level where you’d have to get a Juilliard graduate to improve it, to put it mildly. And it is my contention that this, not the inherent differences in musical styles, is one of the primary drivers of the worship wars.

And when’s the last time I took some lessons or extra effort to improve my game in these things? Hint; I am an engineer. If I don’t do it daily, I quickly become unemployable, and I take that attitude to church as well.

You are probably very qualified to judge engineers. Musicians? Not so much. It is no problem; you are just out of your comfort zone but until you understand music a bit better, maybe a little less judgment and dogmatism is in order.

It is laughable really. You seem to think that a few lessons will make a mediocre musician into a good one. Not hardly. It takes years of work to do that and even then, that is not considering that the average church musician works full time, probably has a family and other responsibilities and is active in other things in church rather than just music.

I am not sensitive about it at all. I am just saying very confidently that you are not qualified to be commenting on this in the way you are because you don’t know what you think you know.

Christ the Lord is Risen Today:

“Christ the Lord is ris’n today, Alleluia!
Sons of men and angels say, Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high, Alleluia!
Sing, ye heav’ns, and earth, reply, Alleluia!
Lives again our glorious King, Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting? Alleluia!
Once He died our souls to save, Alleluia!
Where thy victory, O grave? Alleluia!
Love’s redeeming work is done, Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!
Death in vain forbids His rise, Alleluia!
Christ hath opened paradise, Alleluia!
Soar we now where Christ hath led, Alleluia!
Foll’wing our exalted Head, Alleluia!
Made like Him, like Him we rise, Alleluia!
Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!
Hail the Lord of earth and heaven, Alleluia!
Praise to Thee by both be given, Alleluia!
Thee we greet triumphant now, Alleluia!
Hail the Resurrection, thou, Alleluia!
King of glory, Soul of bliss, Alleluia!
Everlasting life is this, Alleluia!
Thee to know, Thy pow’r to prove, Alleluia!
Thus to sing, and thus to love, Alleluia!”

http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/Christ_the_Lord_Is_Risen_Today/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzy7jFNUc3w

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Forever (We Sing Hallelujah):

“The moon and stars they wept
The morning sun was dead
The Saviour of the world was fallen
His body on the cross
His blood poured out for us
The weight of every curse upon him
One final breath he gave
As heaven looked away
The son of God was laid in darkness
A battle in the grave
The war on death was waged
The power of hell forever broken
The ground began to shake
The stone was rolled away
His perfect love could not be overcome
Now death where is your sting?
Our resurrected King
Has rendered you defeated
Forever he is glorified
Forever he is lifted high
Forever he is risen
He is alive, He is alive!
The ground began to shake
The stone was rolled away
His perfect love could not be overcome
Now death where is your sting?
Our resurrected King
Has rendered you defeated
Forever he is glorified
Forever he is lifted high
Forever he is risen
He is alive, He is alive!
We sing hallelujah
We sing hallelujah
We sing hallelujah
The Lamb has overcome
We sing hallelujah
We sing hallelujah
We sing hallelujah
The Lamb has overcome
Forever he is glorified
Forever he is lifted high
Forever he is risen
He is alive, He is alive!
You have overcome
You have overcome
You have overcome
You have overcome”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/karijobe/forever.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6duzVn5M6E

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The first is clearly traditional; the second is clearly contemporary.

What say anyone here: Is there a place for both in our services today?

(Disclaimer: My church has used both at Easter services, although only the first this year.)

Specifically, that’s the logical fallacy you’re committing there. Would we then assume that our hypothetical Juilliard graduate—magna cum laude of course—would then override you if he were so inclined? Do we then count the days spent in instruction, or the accolades won, and declare the one with the greatest weight the winner, if we’ve got two Juilliard graduates with honors on hand? And what if we had Jascha Heifetz and Isaac Stern both sitting there, both holding their favorite Stradivari ….?

One would hope that we would see the absurdity of such illogic. And really, one does not need any great expertise in music to figure out that half the choir can’t read music (ATB all try to sing the melody in their octave), that the drummer cannot do a drum roll, that the organist isn’t completing the chords, and the like? If my examples are representative of what is seen in too many churches, really anyone who’s spent a year or two in band, orchestra, choir, or piano lessons can figure that out.

It’s really the same deal as when a pastor (so to speak) has never learned sound exegetical and hermeneutical methods. One doesn’t need to have his own MDIV or DD to figure that out, but rather you’ll just hear that pastor mangle his interpretation of passages, and he’ll also tend to use himself as the measuring stick for Scripture. A reasonably well educated layman can figure these things out.

Ah yes, whenever the discussion turns to music, Greg H trots out the “you’re not qualified to comment on this.” And yet Greg, you feel very qualified to comment on many other threads here on SI.

I have no doubt as to your musical qualifications, but please stop using that as your trump card in musical discussions when “qualifications” or lack thereof don’t bother you in other discussions (which I have no problem with you contributing in, BTW).

Larry, I’ve been at churches where Ms. Jobe’s work is used, and my big objection to it is not the music itself—though sometimes her work seems to do too much to “fill the empty spaces”, the fallacy of “add more musicians and it’ll be more musical”—but rather that sometimes it seems that almost all CCM sounds about the same—more or less light rock about Jesus, one dominant singer, etc..

Come to think of it, I’ve got about the same problem with a lot of traditional music churches—“traditional” more or less meaning camp meeting songs from 1850 to 1950 or so. OK, some of those are great….but if the Psalms vary in mood, and we vary in mood, what about our music? If we want modern music, what about jazz, blues, black gospel, appalachian music….and the Psalms in a klezmer style? What about some power chords after a light rockish song? What about some tight harmonies to emphasize 1 Cor. 12?

[Bert Perry]

If we want modern music, what about jazz, blues, black gospel, appalachian music….and the Psalms in a klezmer style? What about some power chords after a light rockish song? What about some tight harmonies to emphasize 1 Cor. 12?

I used that particular song as an example due to Easter having just passed. Actually, we do make use of a fair variety of musical styles. And as a positive, we have some highly accomplished musicians (on several instruments) & singers. For example, we are blessed to have two professional violinists in the church, on the order of “Has occasionally soloed with the Minnesota Orchestra” and “Has played for the President at the Kennedy Center.”

Ah yes, and whenever Greg H says anything, Greg L gets annoyed ;)

OK Greg L and Bert, I am not saying that you have to be a musical expert to pontificate on music. But I will maintain that it would be useful to know at least a little something before pontificating so dogmatically. In this particular situation, we have an example of someone who clearly is out of their comfort zone speaking as an authority.

Yes, I am a modernist who values experts.

Greg H., ,you’re doubling down on the appeal to authority fallacy. The reason you catch flack from Greg L. and myself is simply because it’s bad logic and it dulls, rather than sharpens, those who read it.

And really, there’s (sadly) nothing I’ve said that I couldn’t explain to anyone who was willing to listen and think, really even someone who is tone deaf. At a certain point, to paraphrase your first comment, all those hours of practice are worse than nothing if the musician hasn’t mastered the basics like completing chords, cadence, reading music, and the like. They’re just making bad habits deeper.

[Bert Perry]

Greg H., ,you’re doubling down on the appeal to authority fallacy. The reason you catch flack from Greg L. and myself is simply because it’s bad logic and it dulls, rather than sharpens, those who read it.

And really, there’s (sadly) nothing I’ve said that I couldn’t explain to anyone who was willing to listen and think, really even someone who is tone deaf. At a certain point, to paraphrase your first comment, all those hours of practice are worse than nothing if the musician hasn’t mastered the basics like completing chords, cadence, reading music, and the like. They’re just making bad habits deeper.

Whatever on the logic thing… I will value experts over armchair know-it-alls, but that is just me.

Here is where I double down. When you use phrases like “completing chords” and talk the way you do, it tells me you are not a musician and don’t know music. Doesn’t matter how loudly and dogmatically you pontificate or how much you believe you are an expert. Any real music expert is going to read you and say “this guy does not know what he is talking about.” Sorry but that is the way it is.

Here is Stetzer’s (concise) summation: “I leave you with this: most churches that want to reach their community will be more, rather than less, contemporary.”

Agree? Disagree?