"Church survival doesn't depend on music style."

[DavidO]

What I can do is make an argument from Biblical and aesthetic principle as to why a given piece of music, apart from the words, is or is not lovely, excellent, praiseworthy, or vulgar.

I may not always be right, but I affirm it can be done, and am at least somewhat equipped by various aspects of my education to do so.

1. Is this song, Blessings, the winner of the 2012 Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Christian Music Song, “lovely, excellent, praiseworthy, or vulgar” ?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQan9L3yXjc

2. How about this one, Praise You In This Storm, by the CCM group Casting Crowns?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bLvVjJ4MA

(I picked these two because I heard them used in a funeral in March, 2015 at an IFB church long-known as being very traditional musically.)

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3. One more, as a bonus. Does this Casting Crowns song, titled Who Am I, meet the criteria?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcqria2wmg&ebc=ANyPxKp5-0jxLSO3jgp9uqL…

Heh. No thanks. I’m not here to make judgments on individual songs (or those who listen to them).

But I’d just like you or Ricky or both to tell me if I’m wrong or right. Can these things be judged as I describe? If so, does God expect us to?

[DavidO]

Heh. No thanks. I’m not here to make judgments on individual songs (or those who listen to them).

But I’d just like you or Ricky or both to tell me if I’m wrong or right. Can these things be judged as I describe? If so, does God expect us to?

“I’m not here to make judgments on individual songs.”

I see. You’re free to tell us that you can, except that you won’t. (Got it…..)

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You’re asking if songs, among other things, can & should be judged according to the criteria of this verse, “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things” (Philippians 4:8 ESV)? My answer is, “Yes, of course!”

Where we differ is that I can (and oftentimes do) see truth, purity, loveliness, etc. in contemporary Christian music. You apparently cannot (or perhaps more aptly, refuse to).

[Bert Perry]

And so I plead with you to get to simply a preference for a certain genre of church music—I’m guessing most of yours dates from about 1800 to about 1950—and then ask yourself a very pointed question, the one that Larry has been asking. If we know that the modern genres speak to people today in a way that our preferred music does not, are we willing to accept it in the church for the sake of those who might come to know Him? And if not, why?

Bert,

You don’t really know Andy (or me for that matter), but of course as others have mentioned, this topic is complex and not easily answered by the lack of “thou shalt not”s in scripture about music types. My personal taste is mostly towards older music than typically is used in fundamental circles, music you have stated you like, and that I know Andy also appreciates. My last two major CD purchases were SACDs of “Gabrieli in Venice 1615,” and Bach’s “St. Matthew Passion,” although I did also get one CD of “pop opera”-type music, which I also enjoy. All of those are probably too showy or difficult (in most cases, although the tune to “O Sacred Head Now Wounded” appears quite prominently in the “St. Matthew Passion”) for use as worship music in our church services, but none strike me as unusable in the same way that typical popular modern music does.

I don’t exactly hold Andy’s position that music can so easily be identified scripturally as music that intrinsically we shouldn’t be using for worship, but I share his distaste for using music that is too close to our current pop/rock/hip-hop genres. From my point of view, why would we want to use for worship music that can too easily remind us of the world’s culture that surrounds us and that we really almost can’t get away from? If God is holy, and a major component of holiness is “separate,” my personal belief is that music we use to worship God should be in some way separate from what is used for other purposes. That criteria doesn’t preclude what we see in the Psalms (though I suspect we would really need to understand that context, as I would bet it’s much more like some forms of folk dance than what we typically call “dancing” today). I also understand that lewd dancing existed in Mozart’s time and at the time the Psalms were written, but I would suspect that time and distance cause us to see any music used for that purpose at that time differently than people of that time would. However, music used for that purpose today is readily identified as such by pretty much everyone, so for me, at least, I would not be able to think about worship when hearing it.

Of course, there are obvious qualitative differences between dance music and say, Casting Crowns, but even that music doesn’t really lend itself to worship for many older saints today. I would suspect that in a couple generations, such music will not have the same association for saints in that time. I understand that music changes over time, but why do we need to use music in services that for many cannot be seen as worship music? I’m not someone who thinks we need to stick with music from a particular period or style, but wouldn’t it seem prudent to not push the boundaries so strongly and quickly? I understand the argument that “modern” music speaks more to people today, but I’ve met plenty of young couples, 30 years younger than I am, and who were not raised in Christian homes, to whom modern tunes in a traditional style, and even great hymns of the faith, speak quite well.

All this boils down to this: while I would generally agree with you that the Bible gives us very little help in determining certain music to be immoral of itself, it gives us plenty of reason to be careful what we choose to use.

[Larry Nelson] I see. You’re free to tell us that you can, except that you won’t. (Got it…..)

Why do you need me to? You agree it can be done. Ricky was essentially saying it couldn’t be done. There’s no point in me dis/agreeing with you or others on the internet about a given song. More productive is a discussion of the if and how. The actual criteria. The philosophy. The individual judgments moot until common ground on the bases is reached.

[Larry Nelson] …I can (and oftentimes do) see truth, purity, loveliness, etc. in contemporary Christian music. You apparently cannot (or perhaps more aptly, refuse to).

And this? Why, assuming you’re right about what I see in CCM, make it sound like some sort of personal deficiency?

[DavidO]

Larry Nelson wrote:

…I can (and oftentimes do) see truth, purity, loveliness, etc. in contemporary Christian music. You apparently cannot (or perhaps more aptly, refuse to).

And this? Why, assuming you’re right about what I see in CCM, make it sound like some sort of personal deficiency?

I’m sorry I offended you.

[dcbii]

Of course, there are obvious qualitative differences between dance music and say, Casting Crowns, but even that music doesn’t really lend itself to worship for many older saints today. I would suspect that in a couple generations, such music will not have the same association for saints in that time. I understand that music changes over time, but why do we need to use music in services that for many cannot be seen as worship music? I’m not someone who thinks we need to stick with music from a particular period or style, but wouldn’t it seem prudent to not push the boundaries so strongly and quickly? I understand the argument that “modern” music speaks more to people today, but I’ve met plenty of young couples, 30 years younger than I am, and who were not raised in Christian homes, to whom modern tunes in a traditional style, and even great hymns of the faith, speak quite well.

All this boils down to this: while I would generally agree with you that the Bible gives us very little help in determining certain music to be immoral of itself, it gives us plenty of reason to be careful what we choose to use.

Dave I can agree with most of what you say. However, let me ask you and others to consider something here. You correctly point out that there are some older people that would hear Casting Crowns and probably be so distracted by the music that it wouldn’t be considered worship. On the flip side, do you realize that there are other people that would be so distracted by the style of hymns that to them it wouldn’t be considered worship either? This is where I believe we get out of whack. We tell one set of Christians to bend for this other group that is completely unwilling to bend. Doesn’t Paul seem to indicate that we should do the exact opposite (see one of my posts from very early in this thread)? I may despise hymns (I don’t) but should be willing to stand along side the Christian next to me and sing a hymn. You may hate contemporary songs, but if there is nothing Scripturally wrong with the song, should you not stand along beside me and sing the contemporary song in praise to God? If this were clearly a sin issue then we shouldn’t bend, but if it is only preference then it is more Scriptural to work to edify others rather than myself. Note that is a two-edged sword…it applies to hymn only as well as the contemporary folks. Yes, I realize that many don’t see this as a preference. Yet I believe these conversations (if kept civil) are vitally important because the more we seek to see what Scripture says on the subject, the more we realize that it is extremely difficult to be dogmatic when it comes to music (at least that is what happened to me over time).

[DavidO]

Why do you need me to? You agree it can be done. Ricky was essentially saying it couldn’t be done. There’s no point in me dis/agreeing with you or others on the internet about a given song. More productive is a discussion of the if and how. The actual criteria. The philosophy. The individual judgments moot until common ground on the bases is reached.

If you are simply referring to whether something is praiseworthy, then of course we can and should do that and it must be done through the lenses of Scripture. I’ve done that with music and am happy to sing with my hymn only friends and my contemporary friends…I do not see anything in Scripture that would say that they are not praiseworthy. If you are referring to pointing out sinful elements in music, no I do not believe it can be done. I’ve known many pastors that preach against the sinfulness of rock music (or contemporary), yet no two of them can agree on which genre or style or song is sinful and which isn’t. One would say that Southern Gospel is good music while the next one is screaming about how sinful it is. When asked what in the music is sinful, no one can tell us how to identify music that is immoral and music that isn’t. This means that we must go to the “expert” for them to tell us what is sin and what isn’t. In effect, we do not need Scripture…all we need is an expert. I would hope that would make any Christian shudder! That is why I’m pointing back to Scripture and always ask people to justify what they are saying about the sinfulness of music by exegeting from Scripture on the subject. I know there isn’t chapter and verse on it (just like many other things) but certainly we should be able to show from Scripture why something is sinful if we are going to say that it is. That is where the conversation normally ends or turns confrontational. I’m with you that we should talk about the philosophy and judgment of music and criteria but we have to use Scripture when we do this. And please trust me when I say I’m not trying to just poke at anyone here to make anyone mad. I truly believe these conversations are important. Thanks for the discussion.

Dave, I can go along with being careful, but keep in mind here that most of the arguments really boil down to guilt by association. The electric guitar and drums are used by long-haired dope-smoking maggot infested heavy metal types, so therefore we cannot use the electric guitar or drums. OK, given that heavy metal bands are known to do their songs with full orchestra and keyboard/piano, we’d better get rid of just about everything by that logic, shouldn’t we? They are all used, after all, by long-haired dope smoking maggot infested heavy metal types, right? Use that violin or piano and you’re obviously a devil worshipper from Motley Crue. Certainly never anything with the 12 bar blues—we’ll ignore how it’s been used in black gospel. It’s evil.

See where guilt by association gets us? There is also the ugly reality that as I read the rules Steve and others propose for music, it more or less boils down to staid white peoples’ music being OK, and everybody else’s is not. If we think our black brothers and sisters have failed to notice this, we are kidding ourselves.

Just for the sake of argument, let’s take a look at how Temple music would likely have actually varied from pagan worship. We know that God has given us the Psalms in written form—the word is important to Him—and we also know that He prescribed wind, string, and percussive instruments for doing so in a context that would sometimes include some form of dance. So no feet nailed to the floor. Pagan and Godly alike worshipped in Hebrew, and they used the same instruments to accompany it.

Hence the worship of Asherah or Molech cannot differ in terms of instrumentation, and the worship of God would also at least sometimes include music with a beat—even syncopated, as Hebrew does not generally stress the first syllable. What would be different?

Hebrew worship involved verbal affirmations and the sacrifice of animals. Pagan worship involved ritual fornication and the sacrifice of one’s own children. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, in the light of conscience, one didn’t want to think too deeply about what one was doing when one went to the temple of Molech or Asherah. Hence I would assume that the point of Temple music was to communicate the words of God to hearts, minds, and bodies….and the purpose of whatever music was in the temple of Molech was to distract people from what they were doing.

Bible worship emphasized the Word. Pagan worship—especially that of fertility deities—did the opposite. And with that, we really have almost a mandate for church music. It should communicate God’s word in musical form. OK, it will be poetry, not prose. It will—Psalm 150:4 again—occasionally move the feet. It’s not just intellectual, but emotional, too.

Which is a long way of saying that since Scripture allows—even commands—a full range of instruments (for the time at least) and multiple genre, that the restraints on musical style will flow from the message to be taught and the poetic devices used to convey it. We will not be claiming that a heavy beat or syncopation is ipso facto wrong. We will ask whether it makes sense in light of the message.

[RickyHorton]

​Dave I can agree with most of what you say. However, let me ask you and others to consider something here. You correctly point out that there are some older people that would hear Casting Crowns and probably be so distracted by the music that it wouldn’t be considered worship. On the flip side, do you realize that there are other people that would be so distracted by the style of hymns that to them it wouldn’t be considered worship either? This is where I believe we get out of whack. We tell one set of Christians to bend for this other group that is completely unwilling to bend. Doesn’t Paul seem to indicate that we should do the exact opposite (see one of my posts from very early in this thread)? I may despise hymns (I don’t) but should be willing to stand along side the Christian next to me and sing a hymn. You may hate contemporary songs, but if there is nothing Scripturally wrong with the song, should you not stand along beside me and sing the contemporary song in praise to God? If this were clearly a sin issue then we shouldn’t bend, but if it is only preference then it is more Scriptural to work to edify others rather than myself. Note that is a two-edged sword…it applies to hymn only as well as the contemporary folks. Yes, I realize that many don’t see this as a preference. Yet I believe these conversations (if kept civil) are vitally important because the more we seek to see what Scripture says on the subject, the more we realize that it is extremely difficult to be dogmatic when it comes to music (at least that is what happened to me over time).

Ricky, I have plenty of friends and relatives who attend contemporary churches that have great preaching, and though I haven’t dug too deeply, those churches look to me to be pretty sound. When I visit those friends and relatives, I generally do go to church with them, and I do in fact try to sing along with the others in the service. (Sometimes this is very difficult for various reasons: I don’t know the song, no notes are given for those of us who can read music, and the worship team often changes the timing of the songs at seemingly random intervals. Some songs are considered so well-known that not all of the repeats/changes are even indicated on the projected words. All of these sometimes add up to my not being able to sing along very well, if at all. Nonetheless, I give it a good effort.)

Hate (your term) is probably too strong a word for my thoughts on CCM as worship music, but I will say that much of the time it seems no better to me than some of the common merry-go-round tunes that make up the popular song selections at many an old-timey fundamental church that should have been dropped long ago. Further, some modern songs just don’t seem very worshipful. Given a selection of good churches, I would definitely prefer one with good traditional music over one with contemporary music, but if I were faced with a choice where I couldn’t pick exactly what I wanted, other things being equal, I would definitely choose a more contemporary church with solid expositional preaching over one that had traditional music, but whose idea of a good strong sermon is lots of yelling, pounding, and repetition to bolster weak points.

As far as bending backwards for other believers, many churches today are slowly adding modern songs with good texts, though sung in a more traditional fashion, while weeding out songs that may have been loved by “Aunt Bea,” but have just as much doctrinal content as some of the more banal CCM praise choruses, and not trying to pick only older hymns. For those of us whose thoughts on music is pretty close to “the older, the better,” I believe that’s a reasonable compromise. I still think that things should move slowly, and music that over time has less association with the world and has shown itself to have lasting value will eventually make its way into the church. I’m sure that’s too slowly for some of you more modern types, but I think it allows for new things to be added at a rate that respects the tradition of those who have come before, but have not passed off the scene just yet. And from what I’ve seen, at least in my area, there are plenty of churches for those who can’t stomach anything older than 30 years. Personally, I think they are just as extreme as those who will *never* allow any song by Getty no matter how it’s done.

It’s kinda nostalgic to read this thread. There have been a lot of music threads at SharperIron. Pretty early on (almost two years into the first SharperIron Forum) I made this list of music threads:

http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=4123 Focus on music more than the message?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=4051 Hip Hymns are Him
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3903 Does Music Communicate Propositionally?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3878 16th Century CCM
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3865 A Biblical Refute to CCM
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3835 CHRIS ANDERSON: “Conservative Music Is Not a Fundamentalism Issue”
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3821 Bewildered & disappointed
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3795 What’s Wrong With This Picture?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3616 Greek Philosophy and the Moral Value of Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3537 Aniol on Music and Theology
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2867 Beauty and the Best (Part 2 of 2)
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2672 How often do you listen to secular rock/pop music?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=311 Yet Another Music Thread - Rock = Bad = Sin?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2394 Poll on Music Standards
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2406 Personal Music Standards Poll #2
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1951 Toward a Biblical Understanding of Music, Part 4
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1930 Toward a Biblical Understanding of Music, Part 3
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1919 Toward a Biblical Understanding of Music, Part 2
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1901 Toward a Biblical Understanding of Music, Part 1
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1885 Is music really the matter?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1792 A sometimes-insider to Christian Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1757 The Battle for Christian Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1570 In Pursuit of Excellence
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1635 Why You Choose/Use CCM
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1489 Casting Crowns on Worship - Mark Hall Transcript
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1610 Drums in the Church
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1555 Music: Emotions & The Big Bad Beat
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1447 The Object of Worship (And and task of Contemporary Music)
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1499 On Music, What is the Specific Issue?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1531 Jars Of Clay
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=348 A Music Thread on CCM
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1429 Music and Morality
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1324 Vineyard Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1318 Ryken/Janz Interview Transcript Part 3: Music and Worship
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1015 Is the singing dead?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=271 Are “Associations” a Legitimate Factor in Determining Worship Music Choices
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=844 Conference on Music, Worship, and Culture
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=184 Worship and Culture
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=207 A Biblical Theology of Worship - Old Testament
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=650 I’m thankful my music convictions were way too conservative for awhile…
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=649 Another music and culture thread.
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=636 Your choice? Music or Worship…
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=532 Practical Concerns in Music Ministry
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=251 The Meaning of Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=373 Balaam’s Ass: Can Secular Music Communicate Biblical Truth?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=411 A Fundamentalist conference on CCM, and music styles.
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=50 Recovering Pharisee
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=76 Association in Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=305 A postmodern interpretation of musical style
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=310 Conference on Music, Worship, and Culture
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=165 Musical Separatists
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=145 So-called “Special Music”
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=211 Young Fundamentalists and The Music in Their Home Church
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=276 Recent Conference on Music and Worship
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=101 Reductionism in Discussions of Music
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=46 Music: How wide is the spectrum for acceptable standard?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=136 Who’s to blame for “Dead” services?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=77 Musical Style
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=182 Sacred Music Recommendations
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=11 Preach on Music Standards

Are you saying this is a hot button issue here or something like that? :^)

[dcbii]

As far as bending backwards for other believers, many churches today are slowly adding modern songs with good texts, though sung in a more traditional fashion, while weeding out songs that may have been loved by “Aunt Bea,” but have just as much doctrinal content as some of the more banal CCM praise choruses, and not trying to pick only older hymns. For those of us whose thoughts on music is pretty close to “the older, the better,” I believe that’s a reasonable compromise. I still think that things should move slowly, and music that over time has less association with the world and has shown itself to have lasting value will eventually make its way into the church. I’m sure that’s too slowly for some of you more modern types, but I think it allows for new things to be added at a rate that respects the tradition of those who have come before, but have not passed off the scene just yet. And from what I’ve seen, at least in my area, there are plenty of churches for those who can’t stomach anything older than 30 years. Personally, I think they are just as extreme as those who will *never* allow any song by Getty no matter how it’s done.

This is reasonable. As I’ve mentioned, my church has both traditional and contemporary services. We have no intention whatsoever of doing away with the traditional–we have about 20% of our congregation who prefer/choose to attend the traditional (but those 20% are ever increasing in average age).

As I’ve mentioned, it’s primarily in our contemporary services that we are experiencing growth (both numerical & spiritual), which lately seems to only be accelerating. In just the past two years, our total average attendance has gone up by about 50%. I personally find it hard to argue against contemporary services when each weekend I see (in a side-by-side comparison at my church) that they are where people are visiting, being saved, getting baptized, and growing in the Word. (We have a lot of ex-mainline Lutherans and ex-Catholics, who appear to gravitate toward the contemporary services. I’ll leave the reasons for that up to speculation.)

I’m 53, and I love our traditional services. I love the organ, the grand piano, the violins, the choir–but I realize I’m in the minority. Having said that, I will just as often attend our contemporary services, due to my teaching & other volunteer positions schedule. Our contemporary services, by the way, often feature older hymns set to modern arrangements.

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I have to ask though, in what other aspect of our churches or elements of our services do we still think in terms of, “the older, the better”?

Most of us have moved beyond such thinking in terms of the translations of God’s Word that we use. A stubborn few still insist that we should be using only a 405 year old translation, but most of us here on SI are more commonly using translations from very recent decades (e.g. the NKJV, ESV, NIV, or whatever).

Nobody I know of would insist that older sermons are “better.” If anyone did, we might expect to hear our pastors reading, verbatim, sermons by Spurgeon or perhaps Edwards from the pulpit. (Granted, they are undoubtedly more theologically profound than a lot of today’s preaching…..) Nevertheless, older sermons are viewed as products of their times, and some of their language and illustrations would be considered dated and not resonate with modern listeners.

How many churches are installing stained glass in new construction today? It once was fashionable (and served a purpose), but it’s no longer in vogue.

In terms of the Lord’s Supper, we Baptists serve juice today, rather than wine, which is a relatively recent change.

Yet music seems to be an area, in contrast to many others, in which “the older, the better” is upheld.

One thought regarding this whole debate is that in my view, we all need to get out more. On both extrema, the criteria for “good” or “Biblical” music more or less are “what we’re using.” OK, yes, when that’s what you hear, that’s what you’re used to. Just like kids raised on fast food are lost in any decent restaurant—or when they go to Europe—people who get only one genre of music are going to think that’s what’s right and everything else is wrong.

To build, I hope, on Larry’s comment at 9:53 am, that’s a great reason to listen to music outside your comfort zone, even if those “in the know” tell you it’s just awful. It’s a great reason to read Jonathan Edwards’ sermons like Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, or listen to Charles Koelsch’s recitations of Spurgeon’s sermons. It’s an awesome reason to read the ESV, 1611 AV, the Geneva Bible, Luther’s German translation, or the Vulgate. It’s a great reason to worship in a church with stained glass and an accoustic organ, or in one without either, or even solid walls.

You’re going to come out with your own biases—it would be silly for me to pretend otherwise—but at least you’ve got a chance of using something other than yourself as your frame of reference. Really, most of the big arguments we have on this forum—h/t to Dan—are where we enshrine our personal preferences and then decide that to have another view somehow constitutes sin. We really need to get out more, even if we need to undergo a degree of suffering in the process.